Balancing of the game

Lightvoid - Lost City · January 2011

all i have to say is.... Susa the link on your sig is friggin hilarious, that is allb:laugh

ElderSig - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Ruxal - Harshlands wrote: »

3) Nerf the effectiveness of refines with respect to soulforce I mean wtf you really wanna compare demon stone barrier that has a definite limit to soulforce? as if vodoos were not enough eh!

Soulforce has nothing to do with voodoos? o.o

I'm starting to wonder if most wizards have read psy skills.

Jadsia - Lost City · January 2011

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

Ok, imagine THIS:

You drop in on a group and Armageddon.

3 of them have Bramble up.

You just died. In one hit.

THAT is why Bramble is not good for PVP. It would make Mage types almost immune to even being attacked by Physical classes.

If the impact of it was greatly reduced, then it wouldnt be so bad, but at like 60% return, its just stupid. For Bramble Hood im less incline to dislike it, due to it being temporary and having an expensive spark cost, much like a barbs 2 spark bless skill.

---As for knockbacks, in the air its already too hard to fight as a melee class vs archers, they stun, drop and fly sideways. You then have to follow them, while getting repeatedly stunned or immobilised, because you dont move fast. Remember there is no holy path in the air. As for immunity to stuns etc extending to pushbacks... Again no, youd be able to survive like 1 pushback, get in range and pewf, your (On average) 10 seconds of immunity are gone. Wizards can travel faster in the air than anyone else, at least for short distances, if they could will you away, youd have no chance in hell of covering the space again within cooldown. Earthquake (Genie skill) would become very popular all of a sudden as a second pushback in PVP too.

With both active as youd like, with buffs....

You sir, as a barb would never stand a chance against a wizard ever again. Ever. At all. Venos would laugh at you, nix pecking away while they cast and kite and you weaken yourself on bramble. Clerics would giggle, they wouldnt need to attack, just heal over the damage they take. Psychics would run around in black voodoo, knowing that the bramble means a sin is likely to 3shot themselves when they attack, as well as having their own omg power on tap, Other sins would be happy when they crit return on bramble against you, (Oh yes, sins crit with bramble returns and Wolf Emblem has effect, eat that)...... Just lol.

Archers would lol pushback you for fun, and I suspect with 2 archers you could have a damn good game of pong, using a corpse or 4 for goals. Other barbs would never frigging die, theyed knock you back, and by the time you got back to them, theyve had like another 2 seconds to cooloff charm, then bang knockbacked by Earthquake, another second, then bankg stunned, more time......

Your ideas suck for plenty of reason. And largly, they suck for you more than they suck for me. I can Shadow teleport / Shadow Jump to targets in the air within a good range, I can close in unseen with a good chance of immobilising and of course, I can Maze -Steps Ironguard through the reflect (You can do this, kinda I guess. But lol, not as effectively).

Oooh! Seals. If pushbacks work, Seals will too. Lol when you use Expel, youl end up pegging it for the horizon. If I use Throatcut, you run away for 4 seconds. Wizard Seal is ANOTHER pushback.... Lol and wow. The only one that wouldnt suck is Nova, and thats because you get immobilised too.

b:chuckle Lol ideas, thisd be amusing, for like a day.

--The only one that made sense was the Shadow Escape Nerf, and a few sins HAVE pointed out that losing the point of the skill (Escaping) because it costs sparks, would make the entire skill useless. We have a cooldown, and that is the problem. you need to take wave one, and then wave 2. If you survive wave 2, there is no wave 3, not for well over a minute, so we die. Try jumping around, it does wonders to stop you getting roflraped, especially when you get stunned in the air.

Im with the idea of it costing a spark, but only if you have one. If you cannot cast it without spark, then the skill is useless and you have broken the class, not nerfed them.

Aaaaaaaaaaand on a personal note. Im not APS built and never will be. However robes hate me all the more, because I often oneshot them No time to AD from that, at all. I not be OP, I just be me.

Ummm.. correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't bramble guard and bramble hood deflect just fine in TW and dueling? Those 2 scenerios are totally 100% PvP, TW being as close to open PvP environment as it is yet those 2 events are completely manageable with the bramble buffs working as they should. So considering that why all of the sudden is it considered totally overpowered in open PvP again?

Naivety - Harshlands · January 2011

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Ummm.. correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't bramble guard and bramble hood deflect just fine in TW and dueling? Those 2 scenerios are totally 100% PvP, TW being as close to open PvP environment as it is yet those 2 events are completely manageable with the bramble buffs working as they should. So considering that why all of the sudden is it considered totally overpowered in open PvP again?

TW you have backup and archers / casters take out the brambled people. There are also purges flying everywhere.

In PvP you are not gaurenteed to have a bramble counter, and in most cases, you wont.

Having a victory because someone cannot attack you is a more phail victory than HeadHunting a Level 30 From stealth when you are Lv 105.

MageFizban - Lost City · January 2011

I don't see where all this QQ about Forced Stealth costing 1 spark stems from. Sins already have chi flowing out of their asses. I remember a main reason for me going sage wiz was the 50 chi a minute from Master Li's. You guys get 100 chi a minute with no channeling/cast + attacking skills that give insane amounts of chi.

You don't see me getting 1 spark when I psy will do you?

Julian - Dreamweaver · January 2011

The problem is with the game at it's core. Expecting each class to be just as good at not only fighting as each other, but as good at any matchup. I disagree with even having every class needing to fight anything. Clerics can support, why do they need to be as strong as any other class combat-wise? Assassins are awesome PvPers, why do they need to be good at PvM?

Also, the fact that classes aren't versatile enough. There's no options when choosing, say, Archer. Grab a ranged weapon, level your dex with a bit of str and vit in there, that's it. Not to mention the targeting system and how you gotta stand there hitting each other till someone dies. It's not only unrealistic, it's the main reason for the PvP balancing(or lack thereof).

Eh, just ignore my weird rants. Sometimes, they don't even make sense to me.

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »

I don't see where all this QQ about Forced Stealth costing 1 spark stems from. Sins already have chi flowing out of their asses. I remember a main reason for me going sage wiz was the 50 chi a minute from Master Li's. You guys get 100 chi a minute with no channeling/cast + attacking skills that give insane amounts of chi.

You don't see me getting 1 spark when I psy will do you?

lol inner harmony is 200 chi with sage having a 30% chance for 300 chi (according to ecatomb anyway). Sins are way out of balance with the rest of the classes, it wouldn't bother me one bit if they were unable to equip weapon for a month and see what it feels like to have no chance in pvp. A good sin is near immortal in 1v1s.. while still amazing useful if played right in mass pvp.

MageFizban - Lost City · January 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

lol inner harmony is 200 chi with sage having a 30% chance for 300 chi (according to ecatomb anyway). Sins are way out of balance with the rest of the classes, it wouldn't bother me one bit if they were unable to equip weapon for a month and see what it feels like to have no chance in pvp. A good sin is near immortal in 1v1s.. while still amazing useful if played right in mass pvp.

Whoops, my bad. I haven't played on a sin in a month. I had it at 1 chi a minute so my edit is an improvement.

lmaonade1xp · January 2011

Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »

Well tbh I haven't read any of the threads on this forum in many months, but seeing as I am completely bored at the moment, I figured no harm in making a thread before i log off. Now this might be the wrong area to post the thread but who cares really? These ideas may also have already been stated elsewhere but as I stated, I don't read these forums anymore.

Now what most people at least on my server are sick of besides pretty much everything in the game, is the imbalance between APS and everything else, moreover just an imbalance between sins and.. everything else.

Now you can't really do what is needed which would be completely removing tideborns from existence, seeing as Assassins are probably your single greatest money making abomination next to packs. So let me throw out an idea or two that might help in balancing them out with the rest of the game.

1. Make reflect skills work in PVP. (IE: Bramble, Bramble Hood, Demon Roar, Alpha Male, Reflective Aura, etc.) What does this do? Well for starters let's see a sin triple spark on a BM and try to kill him when he is brambled. 90% of these sins will drop over dead before they even bypass the charm. Or let's see them try to kill a veno through bramble hood (yes they can do this, and easily) they would die in 2 seconds trying this **** which they shouldn't be able to do in the first place.

2. Make KNOCKBACK skills work in pvp. Now I use to play a game that I won't mention the name of but in that game knockback was possibly the most OP annoying BS ever but that was because it was implemented on every attack of the archer class due to the bow they used. Now just using knockback skills (IE: mage phoenix, archer knockback arrow/knockback aoe, barb slam, etc) these skills have a cool-down so this will not be as broken as the example i gave. What would this do? Well sins are a melee class knocking them back means they can't hit you at least for a short period of time.

((**EDIT**: This would also require a change in the definition of anti-stun to make it resistant to knockback as well as other movement impairments))

These are just two ideas I thought of about balancing the game in general. Now I will give one last idea in balancing the Assassin class specifically, and for the record I was discussing this with one of the top 3 sins on Lost City server (hint: he is 104) and he agreed completely that his class NEEDS to be nerfed. Now here is the idea..

*Change the Forced Stealth skill to costing 1 spark to use instead of giving one spark when you use it.

Simple enough, no?

Well I really have nothing else to add atm. Flame on.

Agreed with most of what you said, changes need to be made so that sins aren't durrclick2win.

and i thought reflect DID work in pvp (with the exception of bramble hood), because I remember marveling at the amount of damage bramble did to an opponent compared to the damage he did to me a few times.

Another thing that the game needs (imo) is a balance of the economy in general (gold and whatnot)

there will always be cash shop QQ and some of it is justified to an extent, but the real problem lies in that earning money as a newbie in pwi is horrifically hard. in today's economy, if you didn't already start out with 20+ million, you're pretty much stuck at your level of coin for a good while (doesn't help that most markets are completely saturated, ie subs, lower HH mats, wines, etc).

I think a cap (or something more graduated or subtle) on the gold market for example, would make everything cheaper and more accessible and make PvP more balanced server wide (since everyone would be able to compete, while people who spend more time and more money still have their advantages)

vristion · January 2011

Really wanna balance the game?

Fix the damage output versus the HP/defence ratio...

Or if you just going to sling out happy packs with top of the line weapons.. atleast fix it where refineing dont cost more than a car note.

sleepcat · January 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I never, ever, said anything about it making assassins completely useless, but the suggested nerf, adding a 1 spark cost to it, would make the skill useless.

And do I need to remind you that Archers got much luxury from being ranged? For example, being outside of aoes. Sins don't get that. Oh and if stuff gets ugly, an Archer can holy path out and be pretty decently safe, considering the distance they can put between themselves and the boss.

Lol. I'm not sure where to start on this post.

IDecision - Raging Tide · January 2011

Has there ever once been a balance patch since this games release? Anything at all? Ive only been playing since last may and havent seen anything yet, so maybe in the past? Crazy that they havent attempted to keep classes equal...

Hhlolz - Harshlands · January 2011

Its rediculous that psy/sin buffs cant be debuffed..
what exactly is the reason for this?
They arent OP enough?

And no, they wont fix anything...
Been playing pwi since early 2008 and they havent made any fix so far....

RouxLouka - Dreamweaver · January 2011

IDecision - Raging Tide wrote: »

Has there ever once been a balance patch since this games release? Anything at all? Ive only been playing since last may and havent seen anything yet, so maybe in the past? Crazy that they havent attempted to keep classes equal...

Sins used to be able to triple spark while in stealth.

Zoe - Heavens Tear · January 2011

RouxLouka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sins used to be able to triple spark while in stealth.

As someone once pointed out, sparking in stealth to begin with makes no sense. They are hiding, and sparking is a massive burst of light. How can anyone not see that massive burst of light?

For that matter, how do you "hide in shadows" in broad daylight when there are no shadows around to hide in? Lets also not forget that people can SEE shadows all the time. The stealth itself makes no sense even in the game world itself.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2011

Even if forced stealth costed 3 sparks it would be pretty easy for sins to cast it with instant inner harmony + cloud eruption.

If you want to nerf it you'd have to have a long channel, long cooldown, or have a limit on the length of time you can remain stealthed. It doesn't mattermuch that it gives sparks if sins have inner harmony.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As someone once pointed out, sparking in stealth to begin with makes no sense. They are hiding, and sparking is a massive burst of light. How can anyone not see that massive burst of light?

For that matter, how do you "hide in shadows" in broad daylight when there are no shadows around to hide in? Lets also not forget that people can SEE shadows all the time. The stealth itself makes no sense even in the game world itself.

sadly they can still ue 1-2 spark in stealth (which is more than enough to kill you before your charm ticks)

SilentGodai - Lost City · January 2011

Assassins are fine they are aka look at me. I am a 3.33 aps sin with hh 99 gear and nirvana first cast. I cant touch Susamajii or anyone that is ha character like bms. Cause i dont do enough dmg fast enough (keyword fast enough). So the solution isnt our skills its the aps. Ask Pwi to nerf aps you will see sins be back to normal class with a bit of power. Its not the classes fault if developer decides to get 5.0 with Double chance to sacrificial assault weapon Rank 9 ****.

All i am saying is our skills are not that op, Its not even the skill to blame its the speed aspect of the game to triple spark and maintain 5.0 in pve and destroy any class in less than 3 second cause people who been playing long or rich can reach + 12 weapon and be overpowered.

Think outside the box, Sins who are not OP has zero chance to destroy any ha class or atleast without a good long fight. More so sins suck at aoe fighting against group fighting they drop down really fast with one sin in lost city as exception who is sage and not interval like other sins.

The point is i agree you guys can nerf all you want and make other people skill work but your missing the point that APS Is the problem not skills. I can bet you anything that a sin with less than 3.33 cannont kill a barb or bm without a long fight.

As for pve , Its the same nerf the aps you will see a totally balanced class instantly.

I know how to play my sin both in pve and pvp , Alots of fun when you use all the skills like your suppose to instead of being mindless 5.0 demonspark stealth yay i kill everything cause i got super fast speed.

If you need more clarifying. Assassins = Stealth , disguise , killing from the shadow and escape before noticing.

That is exactly what skills we got. What we are using but when you make a game imbalance by making 5.0 people with these skills they will be OP

Jadsia - Lost City · January 2011

Naivety - Harshlands wrote: »

TW you have backup and archers / casters take out the brambled people. There are also purges flying everywhere.

PvP is PvP no matter where it's at so all defensive skills should work no matter where anyone is at. And what's stopping someone in OPEN PvP from getting a bramble buff from a veno before they go out ganking others.

In PvP you are not gaurenteed to have a bramble counter, and in most cases, you wont.

See above.

Having a victory because someone cannot attack you is a more phail victory than HeadHunting a Level 30 From stealth when you are Lv 105.

But a victory from attacking a toon who's defense buffs are nerfed in open PvP is not fail? LOL. And speaking of not being able to attack someone - sins, stealth, stunlock, ranged vs. melee , etc. With that logic the entire game has been broken from day one.

I suppose if you are an overpowered class then to you the game is balanced, huh??

Jadsia - Lost City · January 2011

Julian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The problem is with the game at it's core. Expecting each class to be just as good at not only fighting as each other, but as good at any matchup. I disagree with even having every class needing to fight anything. Clerics can support, why do they need to be as strong as any other class combat-wise? Assassins are awesome PvPers, why do they need to be good at PvM?

Also, the fact that classes aren't versatile enough. There's no options when choosing, say, Archer. Grab a ranged weapon, level your dex with a bit of str and vit in there, that's it. Not to mention the targeting system and how you gotta stand there hitting each other till someone dies. It's not only unrealistic, it's the main reason for the PvP balancing(or lack thereof).

Eh, just ignore my weird rants. Sometimes, they don't even make sense to me.

Then entire point to the game is for each class to be able to hold their own in PvP while at the same time be nerfed to the point that it requires the combination of each class's skills to be able to successfully defeat bosses in the PvE instances (TT, Nirvana, etc). Both should require good strategy in a well balanced system.

When a specific class or 2 can completely overwhelm others classes their level, gears and toon, with relative ease and be able to solo high level PvE instances it doesn't take much intellect to determine that something is really wrong with the game.

Asperitas - Lost City · January 2011

SilentGodai - Lost City wrote: »

If you need more clarifying. Assassins = Stealth , disguise , killing from the shadow and escape before noticing.

So if your whole premise is based on quick stealthy kills and escaping before anyone noticing, why do you still escape when we're right in front of your face attacking you? If your initial attack has failed, I fail to see why sins should have a panic button that lets them get away scot free. This is after you start with the element of surprise as well.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver · January 2011

SilentGodai - Lost City wrote: »

If you need more clarifying. Assassins = Stealth , disguise , killing from the shadow and escape before noticing.

Right...

Because Assassins also = The abilitiy to produce bright lights unnoticed in front of others, to run 10 m/s+ while being noiseless (do you know how ****ing fast that is?), also being able to teleport.

Yeah, sounds like the definition of Assassins alright.

P.S. While APS do make assassins worse, any good sin doesn't need aps to easily kill arcanes.

Renza - Raging Tide · January 2011

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

I fail to see why sins should have a panic button that lets them get away scot free. This is after you start with the element of surprise as well.

the reason for there panic button is, stupid devs and there lack of programming ability, the new game by Trion being released in march (hopefully ppl get what game i mean) has there assasins on that game, they can stealth, but guess what, you cant stealth in combat mode which is the way it should be, you cant just vanish infront of someones face whilst there attacking you, dunno what kinda OP **** that is, eitherway, in trions game, if your within 5 meters i think? you can be seen and if attacked your stealth cancels, why isnt it like that in this game?

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2011

In TW against any competent faction, an assassin would do horrible without Force Stealth. Even the best geared assassins can get focused down fast once out of stealth. On the contrary, a well-geared archer or wizard can kill many more times without dying.

However, it need not give a spark. Assassins have the highest spark gain out of any class. It's ridiculous. Archers pay substantial amounts of coin for a skill that gives full sparks every 15min, and it's only available after lvl 100. Some people choose Sage specifically for Master Li's Technique, which gives a spark every 2 minutes.

Here you have Inner Harmony giving two sparks a minute, Rising Dragon Strike that gives 150 chi with 30s cooldown. On top of that, they still need to have a spark for going into stealth? Stupid. It's so stupid watching BMs marrow repeatedly or wizards/clerics self heal repeatedly to gain chi upon logging in, while an assassin just casts one skill. Before you talk about spark dependency of classes, note that BMs are just as spark dependent in PvP as assassins.

Happy_Killer - Harshlands · January 2011

Hhlolz - Harshlands wrote: »

Its rediculous that psy/sin buffs cant be debuffed..
what exactly is the reason for this?
They arent OP enough?

Alrighty....

Do you even have the mental capacity to inform the public how it is a Psychic's buffs work? S-O-U-L-F-O-R-C-E. We're the only class that has it. Next you'll complain that the REST of the classes should have soulforce! What originality does that give us?
Yeah...

Our ability to NOT be purified due to the uniqueness of HOW our buffs work makes us different than Wizards, and other caster classes. Get the hell over it. Unlike Assassins, it doesn't give us a RIDICULOUSLY huge advantage in battle. IF you actually leveled a REAL toon and ACTUALLY PvP'd once in a blue moon, you might actually have something of an inkling about what you're blabbering about.

Cleric: "Oh QQ! You can't be purified!"
Hello? That's like one of the few things keeping US ALIVE. (Or, the thing that happens to be killing us faster if you catch a Psychic in Black Voodoo.)
Have you ever vs'd a Psychic that ISN'T buffed? I'll give you a demonstration at West Archosaur sometime just to prove how dependent we are on our buffs. It's like crying about how a Wizard has their PDef buff...very stupid.
Hell, the Seeker class is coming out with an ability that lowers our defense level! Stop WHINING!

You honestly should only use the words "OP" and "Psychic" when talking about either UrDian, or Longknife....and it's only because they have Rank.

OH, how stupid people irritate me.....

sleepcat · January 2011

Happy_Killer - Harshlands wrote: »

OH, how stupid people irritate me.....

If you learn to be more tolerant, maybe you won't irritate yourself all the time. :O

Happy_Killer - Harshlands · January 2011

sleepcat wrote: »

If you learn to be more tolerant, maybe you won't irritate yourself all the time. :O

Example two.
Reading comprehension skills.....you lack them.

Jadsia - Lost City · January 2011

Happy_Killer - Harshlands wrote: »

Alrighty....

Do you even have the mental capacity to inform the public how it is a Psychic's buffs work? S-O-U-L-F-O-R-C-E. We're the only class that has it. Next you'll complain that the REST of the classes should have soulforce! What originality does that give us?
Yeah...

Our ability to NOT be purified due to the uniqueness of HOW our buffs work makes us different than Wizards, and other caster classes. Get the hell over it. Unlike Assassins, it doesn't give us a RIDICULOUSLY huge advantage in battle. IF you actually leveled a REAL toon and ACTUALLY PvP'd once in a blue moon, you might actually have something of an inkling about what you're blabbering about.

Cleric: "Oh QQ! You can't be purified!"
Hello? That's like one of the few things keeping US ALIVE. (Or, the thing that happens to be killing us faster if you catch a Psychic in Black Voodoo.)
Have you ever vs'd a Psychic that ISN'T buffed? I'll give you a demonstration at West Archosaur sometime just to prove how dependent we are on our buffs. It's like crying about how a Wizard has their PDef buff...very stupid.
Hell, the Seeker class is coming out with an ability that lowers our defense level! Stop WHINING!

You honestly should only use the words "OP" and "Psychic" when talking about either UrDian, or Longknife....and it's only because they have Rank.

OH, how stupid people irritate me.....

At least your defense buffs work 100% in open PvP. Must be nice. Don't you think a veno's only defense buff should work 100% too?

We aren't complaining about your defense buffs. You need them to survive. What we are complaining about is that every class's defense buffs should work for PvP 100% of the time too. The psychic's soulforce effects are similar to a veno's bramble buff. The controversy is just that the veno's buff is nerfed in open PvP while a psychic's isn't which defies logic.

It seems to me that the bramble nerf is obsolete and should be reverted back to work 100% in all PvP and not just TW and duels.

As for the other issues regarding sins. those arguments are for other posts and threads really.

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary · January 2011

If you think sins are soooo OP ,roll a sin and play and stop ********, that goes for any other class you might think is too OP b:angry

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2011

What a moronic thing to say. Everyone see the wisdom just ooze out of that post like puss oozes out of a popped pimple. There are 8 classes, obviously everyone should just all roll sins and stop ********.

Balancing of the game

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