Question about Sage and Demon effects

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Okay, just hit 89, and have the choice of Sage and Demon. For now I'm not choosing either until the new expansion, for the chance that something there might make me want to change my decision. I just have a few question about the effects that each gives, and was hoping someone here could tell me.
First, If I went sage, it says it reduces damage taken by 25%, does this stack with Damage reduction % on armor. So if I had Reduce damage by 25% on armor, and then Sage spark, would it then be 50%, or would it be just 25%, and they don't add together.
Same for Demon, if I have -25% channeling, does that stack with the Demon spark, meaning I'd then have -25% channeling, then cast 25% faster from that. So a 1 second spell goes to .75, and then from there it goes to like .56-.57. Or is it a channeling effect, like, they just stack to give -50% channeling. It doesn't say it's channeling, but, then again, what it says isn't always right, we know that from Frostblade.

And can someone please give me a link to a algorithm or just tell me how spark burst % damage increase stacks with % of spell.
So if I Demon spark and use sandstorm, demon Spark gives 700% extra weapon damage, and Sandstorm uses base of 300% plus damage does it take the 300%, then add 700% onto that, or is there some other way it works.
Just wondering on this, because right now my sandstorm does 15K, if I use the first spark burst, it does 17K, and the double spark burst makes it do 20K. Just wondering if I could get the Formula for how spark burst stacks for future reference, and to better under stand the game. Any help you can give I greatly appreciate.
Thanks.

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Well, Weapon damage is pretty much the sum of everything that gives +Mag attack. So, if you had two rings with + 90 Matk, a Magic weapon with 801-971 (A +3 Requim Blade has that =o) with 2 Imac Sapphires (+64) your magic weapon damage would be 1045-1215 . Since Triple spark adds 700% of weapon damage, thats 7135-8505 extra damage added to every attack (except Blade Templest, that gets Base Matk and Spark damage + added to it twice).

Your Base Magic attack is (Weapon damage * 1 + [Magic/100]) So, if you had 450 Magic at level 89, your Base attack damage with the above would be 5757-6682. Effectivly Triple spark more than doubles your base Magic attack.

Using the Sandstorm example, Sandstrom does Base Magic attack (6682) + 300% of Weapon damage (3645) + 4288. Then add Demon Spark Bonus (8505) which totals 23120, which 36% of was from triple spark

Also, elemental Masteries get added on in the end, so thats up to 20% more damage from all sources. On weaker spells, the bonus from 3 spark would be noteable, and on more powerful ones less (except BT, that gains more from Base Matk and Spark than anything else).

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · January 2011

i think that u add your level to weapon attack; otherwise casting without weapon/rings/ornaments wouldnt increase ur attack.

so BMA = (1+mag/100)*(lvl+GearAttack)

the -25% damage works like the -50% dmg from BB

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

That makes sense on the weapon damage. Thanks for telling me, I'd always wondered how having a weapon with 1K magic attack gave me 5K magical attack. Anyone know how channeling works? Just looking for some confirmation, Thanks.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That makes sense on the weapon damage. Thanks for telling me, I'd always wondered how having a weapon with 1K magic attack gave me 5K magical attack. Anyone know how channeling works? Just looking for some confirmation, Thanks.

First of all http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php you'll find a page which names all of the skill effects from sage and demon so you can see which skills are modified in which way

now to your question about channeling and dmg reduction:

Sage Spark (Triple Spark) reduces the dmg you receive by 25% for the next 15s and the reduction is calculated from the dmg you would have got with your armor and def on

So from my understanding the demon spark is also calculated from your current channeling speed with -chan modifiers but be carefull if you have -25% chan the 25% here will be 25% from the 75% channeling remaining so it wont be -50% but less

plz be aware that both of the effects here only work 15s after you have used your Triple Spark

the main channeling reduction for demon comes from demon skill modifications because
there some of the channeling times will be reduced

like
divine pyro
lvl 10 3s chan
sage 3s chan
demon 2.5s chan
and
glacial snare
lvl 10 2.5s chan
sage 2.5s chan
demon 2.1s chan

and these reductions work on every hit and not only during the 15 spark seconds

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Both triple sparks stack with other effects. 25% damage reduction on sage spark means you take 25% less damage than if you hadn't just sage sparked. If you had -25% channeling on demon you would have -50% with demon spark.

It seems like the magic atk deal was already pretty well explained. I generally think of it as doubling my damage when I triple spark.. although it depends on weapon/build and skill used so don't quote me on that :P

Being that I'm really bored atm.. figured I'd just randomly add in some skill clarifications in case you were curious and obviously the descriptions suck.

Pyro (Sage) - 20% chance to get an EXTRA 30 chi (so 15 chi normal, on proc you get 45 chi)

D.Pyro (Sage) - the 20% fire debuff doesn't stack with undine

Dragon's Breath - Demon version has that chance to proc every cycle, so every 2-3 seconds you get a chance at that extra 500 hp. Sage version has a 20% chance per mob to stun. Sage version blows in GV and the like because you steal aggro like a **** due to the stuns.

Wellspring Quaff (Sage) - matk bonus only lasts the duration of the skill (unlike the description). It also does not stack with any sparks.. it actually will override them.

Frostblade - Both versions double the chi you get over lvl 10 version per cast (10chi vs 20chi). Sounds like you know the buff doesn't work as stated, but if you really want the long winded response on how it works you can check the rest of the billion threads on the subject just on the first page or two.

Glacial Snare (Sage) - Same as D.pyro.. doesn't stack with undine

BT (Sage) - It actually has a 50% chance to give you a spark BEFORE it consumes the sparks.. but you can't start channeling it until you have 2 sparks. So if you are at full chi when you use it and it procs.. you get an extra spark but you are still stuck at 399 chi and then 2 sparks are consumed so you end with 199 chi. Kinda misleading description.

BIDS - Demon version works the same way sage BT works.. so don't expect to use it at full chi and still have full chi even if it procs. Sage version is amazing, the chance to proc is calculated before the cast phase of the skill.. so the crit buff works for the skill itself (the average endgame mage is going to have 40%+ crit half the time they use this skill)

MS - Sage version works the same as BT. Demon version increases the RANGE of the skill (so not the radius).. its still awesome being able to start channeling the skill from 35m away from your target.

Not sure if that was useful whatsoever, but just figured those were some of the worst descriptions and may or may not affect your cultivation choice. Good luck with w.e you choose b:laugh

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Thanks Adroit, most of the stuff you listed I knew, but I did not know that the resistance debuff didn't stack with undine. That was actually one of the big reason's I wanted to go with Sage was the decrease in res. after a spell. However if it doesn't stack with undine, not as great as I was hoping. Suppose there has to be a limit to our power though. b:laugh

But on the Demon spark, Both Adroit and Harm said something different. I mean not like the difference is that big, but it is noticeable if I'm understanding right.

Harm is saying it's 25% of the already 75%
so Pyro is normally 1 second, with -25% it's .75, then 25% of that is .56 or .57
While if it's the channeling is added together, it would just be a .50 second cast.

Is it just something that no really knows, like frostblade? Or am I understanding one of them wrong? Or just a typo on one of there parts. I know it's not that useful to know, but on bigger spells, the cast difference is more noticable, so just wondering here. Sorry if I'm over-complicating it. Thanks for the help so far though.

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thanks Adroit, most of the stuff you listed I knew, but I did not know that the resistance debuff didn't stack with undine. That was actually one of the big reason's I wanted to go with Sage was the decrease in res. after a spell. However if it doesn't stack with undine, not as great as I was hoping. Suppose there has to be a limit to our power though. b:laugh

But on the Demon spark, Both Adroit and Harm said something different. I mean not like the difference is that big, but it is noticeable if I'm understanding right.

Harm is saying it's 25% of the already 75%
so Pyro is normally 1 second, with -25% it's .75, then 25% of that is .56 or .57
While if it's the channeling is added together, it would just be a .50 second cast.

Is it just something that no really knows, like frostblade? Or am I understanding one of them wrong? Or just a typo on one of there parts. I know it's not that useful to know, but on bigger spells, the cast difference is more noticable, so just wondering here. Sorry if I'm over-complicating it. Thanks for the help so far though.

It works the way I said it does. I could really get into it, but it is probably easier to just look at the physical equivalent to -channeling.. interval. The math is far easier to calculate being that it gives you the result in the character window and you don't need to worry about taking a video and worrying about lag and whatnot.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide · January 2011

Hopefully genesis updates our demon spark so it increases our attack speed. Then i can finally reach 5aps
/lolwut

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · January 2011

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Hopefully genesis updates our demon spark so it increases our attack speed. Then i can finally reach 5aps
/lolwut

Fisting to me is still something that belongs to pervs so ask yourself do you want to be one of those b:chuckle

To make things clearer Adroit is a sage wiz so am i so it is easier for us to give 100% accurate info for sage skills in general. That was the reason why i wrote from my understanding of the demon spark so i assumed that it works the same way like sage spark according to effect calculation. But it seems like Adroit has done more research here and so the -0.5% might be right then. In the end it the difference isnt big anyway like you already said.

Even if the -20% debuffs from GS and divine pyro dont stack with undine they are still usefull
because a) the effect works 100% of the time so it is great for killing normal mobs or targets in pvp when you dont have the time/mana to debuff. Also on bosses it's comfortable not having to waist mana all the time to keep the boss debuffed.

@Adroit: btw does debuffs from skills overwrite debuff form undine btw --> hard to tell because on the mob the debuff icon remains the same

greetz harm0wnie

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Fisting to me is still something that belongs to pervs so ask yourself do you want to be one of those b:chuckle

To make things clearer Adroit is a sage wiz so am i so it is easier for us to give 100% accurate info for sage skills in general. That was the reason why i wrote from my understanding of the demon spark so i assumed that it works the same way like sage spark according to effect calculation. But it seems like Adroit has done more research here and so the -0.5% might be right then. In the end it the difference isnt big anyway like you already said.

Even if the -20% debuffs from GS and divine pyro dont stack with undine they are still usefull
because a) the effect works 100% of the time so it is great for killing normal mobs or targets in pvp when you dont have the time/mana to debuff. Also on bosses it's comfortable not having to waist mana all the time to keep the boss debuffed.

@Adroit: btw does debuffs from skills overwrite debuff form undine btw --> hard to tell because on the mob the debuff icon remains the same

greetz harm0wnie

i'm not adroit but yes the buff overwrites has been tested proven and posted in at least 100 other threads in this forum

60% debuff > 20% you get sage 300%'s for the damage boost the debuff is near worthless

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Sage debuffs from glacial snare and d.pyro don't override. It works similar to control skills like stuns and whatnot where the first debuff will stay until the duration runs out.. and then you can refresh it with a new one. Not sure if that made any sense so I'll try an example.

Undine lasts 12 seconds
sage D.pyro and G.snare both have 15 second durations

If you use undine and then use sage d.pyro for example.. the target will still have the 60% debuff. The d.pyro debuff will have absolutely no effect (when the undine debuff wears off the d.pyro debuff will not be there at all).

If you use sage d.pyro and then use undine.. the target will have the 20% fire debuff, and 60% water and earth (separate icons/debuffs). Undine will have no effect whatsoever on the fire aspect of the debuff.. but the water and earth will be normal.

Hope that made sense xD

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Ah, makes sense. Seems to me that could make using undine kinda annoying though. I'd have to make sure i don't use either 15 seconds before I wanted to undine. I usually go for
Undine>Sutra>gush>Pyro>Divene Pyro>Gush>Sanstorm/Glacial Snare. So it wouldn't mess my combo up to much thankfully. I also note that a 60% debuff factors out to like 20% more damage, so would a 20% debuff only factor out to about 6.6% increase in damage?
I can see how that would be nice for a ult but when I"m spamming gush/pyro, it doesn't seem to useful to me. But that's just because gush already does more damage in Demon, and pyro cast faster. Guess it would really kinda balance out, which seems the point. I can see the debuff being nice on another Glacial Snare and Black Ice, but I don't like eating up that much time just to do 7% more damage. I think I'm more leaning towards demon now lol.
Thanks for all the help everyone, it's greatly appreciated.

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ah, makes sense. Seems to me that could make using undine kinda annoying though. I'd have to make sure i don't use either 15 seconds before I wanted to undine. I usually go for
Undine>Sutra>gush>Pyro>Divene Pyro>Gush>Sanstorm/Glacial Snare. So it wouldn't mess my combo up to much thankfully. I also note that a 60% debuff factors out to like 20% more damage, so would a 20% debuff only factor out to about 6.6% increase in damage?
I can see how that would be nice for a ult but when I"m spamming gush/pyro, it doesn't seem to useful to me. But that's just because gush already does more damage in Demon, and pyro cast faster. Guess it would really kinda balance out, which seems the point. I can see the debuff being nice on another Glacial Snare and Black Ice, but I don't like eating up that much time just to do 7% more damage. I think I'm more leaning towards demon now lol.
Thanks for all the help everyone, it's greatly appreciated.

D.pyro and G.snare effects are kinda lame for the sage version, but really it doesn't bother me much because I only use them in a sutra combo.. and I almost always undine before that anyway.

The 20% debuff probably does factor out to a small increase in damage. Obviously it depends on several factors, but it definitely isn't something that you are going to be drooling over. As far as demon gush doing more damage.. it really doesn't work out that way. With a decent end game weapon and equivalent build/gear etc etc a sage wizard will do more damage with gush/sandstorm than a demon wizard due to the masteries. You could make a case that the damage is so close you may as well call it equivalent and demon still gets the extra crit from the masteries.. but to say demon does more damage is not accurate.

I'm kinda curious why you are learning towards demon. I've always looked at demon as being good for a -channel build.. but I feel like sage is better for nearly everything else. I know I'm biased towards sage, but I'd hope you'd at least choose your cultivation for the right reasons :P I can't tell you how many people I've met that regret their cultivation choice because they were focused on a few skills and not the big picture.

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

The masteries are nice in Sage. The only reason why I haven't actually chosen though. I'm in a small guild, so we won't be TW much, I'll probably be more in PvP. So I doubt I'll be throwing around big heavy hitting spells quickly. And it's just my play style though, I prefer to kite with spells hear and there. So I'd rather cast 5 spells, in the time it takes a sage to cast 4. If I have 20% crit, which is what I'm aiming for, then one of those spells will crit hopefully. And if it doesn't then I"ll just keep running. Demon Shrink is more useful for my play style also, staying at max range. And i"m not talking about Sins here, I don't even factor them into PvP anymore. There damn tele's don't help whether your sage or demon. But if you can convince me to go Sage, go for it. I wouldn't mind being shown the up's and down's of sage. Seeing as how I"m not there, I can't say, and most Wizards I talk to are Demon. So please, convince me of Sage over demon.

MageFizban - Lost City · January 2011

Personally, I would say demon is more suited to your playing style. If all you want to do is 1v1 and you level slowly, then demon is definitely for you. Demons get their best skills early on, while sages don't get theirs until 99.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The masteries are nice in Sage. The only reason why I haven't actually chosen though. I'm in a small guild, so we won't be TW much, I'll probably be more in PvP. So I doubt I'll be throwing around big heavy hitting spells quickly. And it's just my play style though, I prefer to kite with spells hear and there. So I'd rather cast 5 spells, in the time it takes a sage to cast 4. If I have 20% crit, which is what I'm aiming for, then one of those spells will crit hopefully. And if it doesn't then I"ll just keep running. Demon Shrink is more useful for my play style also, staying at max range. And i"m not talking about Sins here, I don't even factor them into PvP anymore. There damn tele's don't help whether your sage or demon. But if you can convince me to go Sage, go for it. I wouldn't mind being shown the up's and down's of sage. Seeing as how I"m not there, I can't say, and most Wizards I talk to are Demon. So please, convince me of Sage over demon.

demon has control skills and the ability to hit -88% chan for 1 spark + a stone barrier that can offset the phys def loss

sage has chi and bids

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Yeah, with my play style, I think I'd like demon more. Taking pyrogram for instance. I'd Rather be able to cast 5 pyrograms in the time it takes a sage to cast 4. I'd get 75 chi, while the the sage has a chance of getting a extra 30. So let's say it does tick, then I'm using 5 spells to get 75 chi, while Sage is using 4 to get 90. Yeah, they get a one spell more's worth in chi, but i get the extra attack in, and they could always not get the Tick. But I do see how's it even though. Each of there spells will hit for 25% more with masteries, so there 4 will basically be my 5. I can't decide for sure though, it's a tough decision. That's why I"m wanting to be convinced of which to do. I can only guesstimate right now. XD

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah, with my play style, I think I'd like demon more. Taking pyrogram for instance. I'd Rather be able to cast 5 pyrograms in the time it takes a sage to cast 4. I'd get 75 chi, while the the sage has a chance of getting a extra 30. So let's say it does tick, then I'm using 5 spells to get 75 chi, while Sage is using 4 to get 90. Yeah, they get a one spell more's worth in chi, but i get the extra attack in, and they could always not get the Tick. But I do see how's it even though. Each of there spells will hit for 25% more with masteries, so there 4 will basically be my 5. I can't decide for sure though, it's a tough decision. That's why I"m wanting to be convinced of which to do. I can only guesstimate right now. XD

Keep in mind that the 20% channeling reduction on demon pyrogram only affects the channeling of the skill. The casting time doesn't change at all. So with no gear on, a wizard using sage pyro would take 2.3secs, while a demon would take 2 seconds. That means demon would be essentially 15% faster than sage. Also keep in mind that sage masteries only have a 5% advantage over demon (25% for sage.. 20% for demon). On paper it makes sense that the -channeling on demon would almost make up for the chi building for sage.. but it doesn't work out that way at all.

We are kiting in all forms of pvp, and you will find yourself being harassed by melee. A blink will MAYBE give you enough time for a single skill before they are on top of you again. That extra fraction of a second on demon pyro isn't going to be enough to get an extra skill off, but it COULD help you avoid the stun that you know is coming. Obviously there are many situations to consider, but if you are getting harassed (which is normal) you really won't be building much chi as demon. The bonus on sage pyro is nice.. but the real advantage in this situation is half cost distance shrink. I really don't want to go too far off on a tangent here, but lets just say that demon will never be even in the same league as sage when it comes to chi.

Are you more focused on pve or pvp.. or what are you really interested in for end game?

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

As for playing field, it depends. If Genesis doesn't fix the class balance, then I'll probably just be PvPing, with the expectation of dying all the time. In PvP at the moment, it doesn't seem like either are terrible great.
In PvE, I like demon for the cast time. Seeing as how Pyrogram is the only one that has a chance of giving extra chi, and 2-3 skills in Demon has reduced channeling.
The one problem I also have with Demon, is I have to use Cloud eruption to keep my chi up If I want to spark alot. But like I keep saying, I see how it all can balance, I just think I like the Demon spark better then Sage.
As for end game, I'm aiming for at least 20% crit and -25% channeling, seeing as right now I have -18%, and have Light armor on, I think -25% is good.
Okay, so if a sage with 25% channeling cast Pyro, he's casting it at 1.925. With a of 20% chance of getting 30 more chi, so 1/5 will hopefully get it. A demon with same gear sparked will be at 1.4, which is 28% faster. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not so great at math.That is, if channeling stacks the way you say it does.
Then let's say you follow up Pyro with divine pyro. Sage will be casting at 3.25, but lowering there res. by 20%. While Demon will cast at 2.25 seconds, which I think is 33% faster.
Same for Glacial Snare, Sage will cast at 3.675, while demon 2.8, another 24% faster casting.
So just from these Three sages skills, you've got three skills at 8.85 seconds.
While on Demon you've got same 3 at 6.45. So your casting roughly 28% faster. We'll say 30 just so I don' **** up my math. Glacial Snare gives 20chi, Divine gives 20, pyro gives 15. So in we'll say 13 seconds, because I don't think your spark burst gives you 15, I think you start around 12 or 13, please let me know, that will be nice to know for future reference lol.

If I go Pyro>GlacialSnare>gush>pyro>DivinePyro>gush>pyro. If my math is right, you can do this all in slightly over 12 seconds, like 12.25. So all of this is 105 chi.
Now If I sage sparked, and tried to do the same thing, then I'd only get pyro>Glacialsnare>gush>pyro>DivinePyro. You can get this off and be at 12.525 seconds
and you'd only get 80 chi. But you have a 1/5 chance of each of your pyro's giving 30chi
so you could end up with 140. If one, your 5 ahead of demon. That's jsut 7 attacks to 5, but to me if your sitting on 20%, masteries make it 23%, then hopefully two of those will crit. Doing even more damage. While sage may get a crit to, or if lucky 2.

Now my question is, Demon got off 2 more skills in that demon time at 700% damage, is the extra 5% mastery going to make up for that, along with the debuff from pyro and glacial. I"m not entirely sure how much damage that 5% is going to be adding on, but I don't think it would be enough to make up for the Demon spark burst.

I do see where your coming from on the PvP kiting for shrink though. Every gush you use would let you Shrink, which I would find that a invaluable combo, slowing there speed, and getting enough to chi to run away. I'm just worried about those 10 seconds in between. I don't see much that you could do with sage to slow them down more before they got to you. I think pitfall would be my choice after that, slow down more, or higher chance to freeze. But at least with demon Stone barrier, it may give me abit more def. to survive, though 30% doesn't matter that much lol. Just some thoughts.

I do see how just for building chi in the open field sage is better, seeing as how often we spam pyro. As for sparking, just seems like Demon would be better, seeing as I like to do alot of damage real quick.
Argh, I just don't know which to Chose b:sad
Sage is great in the open world and has it's pros and cons.
But then again, so is Demon.....Why couldn't Perfect world balance The class difference as well as they balanced the Sage/Demon XD
Shrink is a big deciding factor, seeing as how it's useful all around.
But also Force of will is helping me lean towards Demon, as is Emberstorm. Can't test Emberstorm, but if I shrink, gush, they get within 12 meters, I can tap that and pray I get a stun, seeing as how it's 50%. Yeah, it'll do alittle damage, but not nearly as much if one of those melee class's catch's me b:laugh
That's just what I'm thinking though lol
I can be full of it sometimes, but please, continue on the pro's of Sage. I do enjoy a hard decision and your just making it harder Adroit.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

...sage mastery gives +5% not +25%...

MageFizban - Lost City · January 2011

It gives 5% more than lvl 10 which is 20% for a total of 25%. We all know what we're talking about. It's not like any of us actually believes that lvl 11 sage masteries give 45% damage increase while demon only get 1% crit. I don't think we'd even be having this discussion if any of us thought that.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah, with my play style, I think I'd like demon more. Taking pyrogram for instance. I'd Rather be able to cast 5 pyrograms in the time it takes a sage to cast 4. I'd get 75 chi, while the the sage has a chance of getting a extra 30. So let's say it does tick, then I'm using 5 spells to get 75 chi, while Sage is using 4 to get 90. Yeah, they get a one spell more's worth in chi, but i get the extra attack in, and they could always not get the Tick. But I do see how's it even though. Each of there spells will hit for 25% more with masteries, so there 4 will basically be my 5. I can't decide for sure though, it's a tough decision. That's why I"m wanting to be convinced of which to do. I can only guesstimate right now. XD

MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »

It gives 5% more than lvl 10 which is 20% for a total of 25%. We all know what we're talking about. It's not like any of us actually believes that lvl 11 sage masteries give 45% damage increase while demon only get 1% crit. I don't think we'd even be having this discussion if any of us thought that.

ya red part msde me go whaaaaaa? reading her later post she seems to get it *goes back to me cave*

Ursa - Dreamweaver · January 2011

yeah, ppl say that a lot on wizard forum, but we all know what it means. It's just 5%, it's clear for every1

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for playing field, it depends. If Genesis doesn't fix the class balance, then I'll probably just be PvPing, with the expectation of dying all the time. In PvP at the moment, it doesn't seem like either are terrible great.
In PvE, I like demon for the cast time. Seeing as how Pyrogram is the only one that has a chance of giving extra chi, and 2-3 skills in Demon has reduced channeling.
The one problem I also have with Demon, is I have to use Cloud eruption to keep my chi up If I want to spark alot. But like I keep saying, I see how it all can balance, I just think I like the Demon spark better then Sage.
As for end game, I'm aiming for at least 20% crit and -25% channeling, seeing as right now I have -18%, and have Light armor on, I think -25% is good.
Okay, so if a sage with 25% channeling cast Pyro, he's casting it at 1.925. With a of 20% chance of getting 30 more chi, so 1/5 will hopefully get it. A demon with same gear sparked will be at 1.4, which is 28% faster. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not so great at math.That is, if channeling stacks the way you say it does.
Then let's say you follow up Pyro with divine pyro. Sage will be casting at 3.25, but lowering there res. by 20%. While Demon will cast at 2.25 seconds, which I think is 33% faster.
Same for Glacial Snare, Sage will cast at 3.675, while demon 2.8, another 24% faster casting.
So just from these Three sages skills, you've got three skills at 8.85 seconds.
While on Demon you've got same 3 at 6.45. So your casting roughly 28% faster. We'll say 30 just so I don' **** up my math. Glacial Snare gives 20chi, Divine gives 20, pyro gives 15. So in we'll say 13 seconds, because I don't think your spark burst gives you 15, I think you start around 12 or 13, please let me know, that will be nice to know for future reference lol.

If I go Pyro>GlacialSnare>gush>pyro>DivinePyro>gush>pyro. If my math is right, you can do this all in slightly over 12 seconds, like 12.25. So all of this is 105 chi.
Now If I sage sparked, and tried to do the same thing, then I'd only get pyro>Glacialsnare>gush>pyro>DivinePyro. You can get this off and be at 12.525 seconds
and you'd only get 80 chi. But you have a 1/5 chance of each of your pyro's giving 30chi
so you could end up with 140. If one, your 5 ahead of demon. That's jsut 7 attacks to 5, but to me if your sitting on 20%, masteries make it 23%, then hopefully two of those will crit. Doing even more damage. While sage may get a crit to, or if lucky 2.

Now my question is, Demon got off 2 more skills in that demon time at 700% damage, is the extra 5% mastery going to make up for that, along with the debuff from pyro and glacial. I"m not entirely sure how much damage that 5% is going to be adding on, but I don't think it would be enough to make up for the Demon spark burst.

I do see where your coming from on the PvP kiting for shrink though. Every gush you use would let you Shrink, which I would find that a invaluable combo, slowing there speed, and getting enough to chi to run away. I'm just worried about those 10 seconds in between. I don't see much that you could do with sage to slow them down more before they got to you. I think pitfall would be my choice after that, slow down more, or higher chance to freeze. But at least with demon Stone barrier, it may give me abit more def. to survive, though 30% doesn't matter that much lol. Just some thoughts.

I do see how just for building chi in the open field sage is better, seeing as how often we spam pyro. As for sparking, just seems like Demon would be better, seeing as I like to do alot of damage real quick.
Argh, I just don't know which to Chose b:sad
Sage is great in the open world and has it's pros and cons.
But then again, so is Demon.....Why couldn't Perfect world balance The class difference as well as they balanced the Sage/Demon XD
Shrink is a big deciding factor, seeing as how it's useful all around.
But also Force of will is helping me lean towards Demon, as is Emberstorm. Can't test Emberstorm, but if I shrink, gush, they get within 12 meters, I can tap that and pray I get a stun, seeing as how it's 50%. Yeah, it'll do alittle damage, but not nearly as much if one of those melee class's catch's me b:laugh
That's just what I'm thinking though lol
I can be full of it sometimes, but please, continue on the pro's of Sage. I do enjoy a hard decision and your just making it harder Adroit.

I really like that you've already done some of your research. It's nice to see somebody that has actually taken a good look at the cultivations before making their choice. I just have a few more things for you to consider. Sage also has the chi skill, which is a free 50 chi per minute. It's really nice because any time you are waiting around or whatnot you are still building chi.. so nearly every time I leave sz or in between some pvp I'm always at full chi without having to spam frostblade over and over and waste the time/mana (I know mana is cheap.. still feels weird using the pots for no reason).

Also keep in mind in that your sage combo probably would never be used.. we would likely be using just pyro -> gush -> pyro over and over.. and that chance at an extra 30 chi is more likely to proc being that we use it more often. In straight dps.. demon will probably win with triple spark.. but again I don't really concern myself with anything other than pvp/TW (I made my cleric on my acct for anything pve related).

You mentioned not knowing what to do while kiting when shrink is on cooldown.. and really the most obvious answer is dropping if you are in the air (which you should be 90% of the time). Instant half damage and moving away from a target is easily one of the best things you can do when you are in trouble. You can see how I kite in a couple of my videos if you are interested :P

http://www.youtube.com/user/D2VeT

Just so we are on the same page, I don't think you can really go wrong with either cultivation. You talk about going demon for the channeling, and control skills.. which is what demon is all about. At this stage in the game you really just need to make your choice based on personal preference, I only really brought this up because alot of people are clueless about the differences between the cultivations.. but you obviously aren't suffering from that at all. Good luck with your choice b:victory

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Ah, Thanks. But you did point out something that I had completely forgot about. Master Li's Technique. I find the gain 50 much more useful then the decrease by 50, but that's just me. Well, Guess I'll just have to wait for expansion, to see where Wizards are at in the Game. Hopefully they won't **** us over to bad. Thanks for the help everyone.

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

By the way, Excellent Job on your Video Adroit.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ah, Thanks. But you did point out something that I had completely forgot about. Master Li's Technique. I find the gain 50 much more useful then the decrease by 50, but that's just me. Well, Guess I'll just have to wait for expansion, to see where Wizards are at in the Game. Hopefully they won't **** us over to bad. Thanks for the help everyone.

Couple ideas. As a mage we are hardly dependent on chi. With chi you can use our most powerful spells. Without chi no. Fast gaining and maintenance chi is crucial for our class. Ultimates save chi pretty good 50% save 1 spark is very nice. You gain chi from pyro, from mater lii spell.
With enough chi you can 3 spark more often(mana independent on long runs), use more often ultimates, use sutra as well.
Lot of times enough chi mean you are still alive. Just one example. Sutra+portal=life.b:chuckle

Lascial - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Yes, I do enjoy the chi gain. I haven't done much open pvp yet. But to me, I just don't find myself using that many ults. Right now if I have 2 sparks, I'll sutra way before I think of a ult.
Also, I'd rather not rely to much on Chi right now, seeing as how everyone is going demon for Aps, and if they use the demon effect, that drains 50 chi, I think it would mess up a Sage's plans more. As a demon I'd just be like, Eh, So what, never have chi anyways lol. Chi can be nice for those big spells, but I prefer to take my time and try and deplete there resources before I go for a bigger spell. And from what I can guess, at level 100. A Sandstorm or glacial snare will do massive amounts of damage anyways. But it's just another way it goes, more Chi means I can stay alive faster, faster cooldown on Force of Will and faster channeling can save my *** to. Just preference from here on out I'd say. Though I did see the new Seeker AoE......not liking the looks of it.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, I do enjoy the chi gain. I haven't done much open pvp yet. But to me, I just don't find myself using that many ults. Right now if I have 2 sparks, I'll sutra way before I think of a ult.
Also, I'd rather not rely to much on Chi right now, seeing as how everyone is going demon for Aps, and if they use the demon effect, that drains 50 chi, I think it would mess up a Sage's plans more. As a demon I'd just be like, Eh, So what, never have chi anyways lol. Chi can be nice for those big spells, but I prefer to take my time and try and deplete there resources before I go for a bigger spell. And from what I can guess, at level 100. A Sandstorm or glacial snare will do massive amounts of damage anyways. But it's just another way it goes, more Chi means I can stay alive faster, faster cooldown on Force of Will and faster channeling can save my *** to. Just preference from here on out I'd say. Though I did see the new Seeker AoE......not liking the looks of it.

Yep. Seeker is last nail to the wizard's coffin.

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Lascial - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, I do enjoy the chi gain. I haven't done much open pvp yet. But to me, I just don't find myself using that many ults. Right now if I have 2 sparks, I'll sutra way before I think of a ult.
Also, I'd rather not rely to much on Chi right now, seeing as how everyone is going demon for Aps, and if they use the demon effect, that drains 50 chi, I think it would mess up a Sage's plans more. As a demon I'd just be like, Eh, So what, never have chi anyways lol. Chi can be nice for those big spells, but I prefer to take my time and try and deplete there resources before I go for a bigger spell. And from what I can guess, at level 100. A Sandstorm or glacial snare will do massive amounts of damage anyways. But it's just another way it goes, more Chi means I can stay alive faster, faster cooldown on Force of Will and faster channeling can save my *** to. Just preference from here on out I'd say. Though I did see the new Seeker AoE......not liking the looks of it.

keep in mind that both demon and sage need chi. Using chi is how you kill a tough opponent.. whether it be from an ulti for a charm bypass or sutra for that last bit of dps to finish somebody off (obviously there are also other uses like triple spark, demon wellspring etc). The demon chi drain skill isn't even close to enough to stop a sage from building chi.. it just slows it down a little. It is kinda funny as sage to use pyro while an opponent uses mo zun's taunt and if you're lucky you are only down 5 chi after that.. but now you're ahead in damage so they need to start kiting again. Sage chi skill is nice because you can use it when you are out of range of an opponent.. and demon is often times missing the small window of opportunity to get some damage in by using its chi burn skill.

Question about Sage and Demon effects

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