Instance Timer Shorter than Quest, LOL

TheDan - Sanctuary · January 2011

So the Fight for Love 85+ Quest has a 5 hour time limit, but the instance resets in 4 hours. Haha, that is some nice logic lol.

I mean yes, the instance can be completed in 3 hours with the slow bean digging, but what is the purpose of the 4 hour instance reset? O.O So people can't do card bosses after the Delta, or the back room Culti Bosses?

Delta isn't even a farm-able instance to hold bosses for... There's a 15 minute boss timer per wave. b:surrender

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · January 2011

FBs have a 8h limit too but the instance resets in 4h too xd
they just put the timer in every instance :b

btw, did the FC bosses respawn?

TheDan - Sanctuary · January 2011

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

FBs have a 8h limit too but the instance resets in 4h too xd
they just put the timer in every instance :b

btw, did the FC bosses respawn?

Meh, my first fb19 was 6 hours long rofl. I don't see the reason for the resets except for farming instances though (TT/Lunar). FCC has a 4 hour reset as well, but the bosses don't respawn.

Silest - Sanctuary · January 2011

I wonder why the instances have timers too..

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide · January 2011

Silest - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wonder why the instances have timers too..

Well if you go all day with the same squad without a timer it wouldn't reset unless the squad totally disbands. Even if by the end of day the squad didn't have any of the original people remaining since the squad wasn't disbanded the instance wouldn't reset. That takes up system resources and can cause issues for everyone if too many instances pile up. Timer guarantees that the instance will close and not take up system resources. Go solo everything in fb19. Go in there periodically B4 the timer runs out. Things can re-spawn but if you go in there often enough B4 the stuff re-spawns and kill them when they do re-spawn you will notice it's the same instance.

Katzyn - Sanctuary · January 2011

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

So the Fight for Love 85+ Quest has a 5 hour time limit, but the instance resets in 4 hours. Haha, that is some nice logic lol.

I mean yes, the instance can be completed in 3 hours with the slow bean digging, but what is the purpose of the 4 hour instance reset? O.O So people can't do card bosses after the Delta, or the back room Culti Bosses?

Delta isn't even a farm-able instance to hold bosses for... There's a 15 minute boss timer per wave. b:surrender

We've done full deltas + card bosses and/or Culti bosses in there, never had an issue, and that was even with some BS'ing around, lol.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · January 2011

Silest - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wonder why the instances have timers too..

Because people were holding instances such as FB79 and FB89 so that card bosses would respawn and BH bosses would respawn. So all you needed to do was hold the unwined and cleared instance, easily get your BH done the next day and kill the respawned card boss as well.

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well if you go all day with the same squad without a timer it wouldn't reset unless the squad totally disbands. Even if by the end of day the squad didn't have any of the original people remaining since the squad wasn't disbanded the instance wouldn't reset. That takes up system resources and can cause issues for everyone if too many instances pile up. Timer guarantees that the instance will close and not take up system resources. Go solo everything in fb19. Go in there periodically B4 the timer runs out. Things can re-spawn but if you go in there often enough B4 the stuff re-spawns and kill them when they do re-spawn you will notice it's the same instance.

Dontcha just love made up stories? Good one. lol

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide · January 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Dontcha just love made up stories? Good one. lol

Aww poor baby spill his milk and need someone to take it out on? It's the truth instances can pile up and cause major server lag if they don't close.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · January 2011

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide wrote: »

Aww poor baby spill his milk and need someone to take it out on? It's the truth instances can pile up and cause major server lag if they don't close.

Aww, butthurt? How cute. ;3

They put in instance timers to stop people from abusing an exploit.

If you're going to make a statement, at least make sure it is factual.

Marche - Harshlands · January 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Aww, butthurt? How cute. ;3

They put in instance timers to stop people from abusing an exploit.

If you're going to make a statement, at least make sure it is factual.

This ^

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide · January 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Aww, butthurt? How cute. ;3

They put in instance timers to stop people from abusing an exploit.

If you're going to make a statement, at least make sure it is factual.

No if I was butt hurt I would lure you into going off and getting yourself banned from the forums. From a technological standpoint my statement is factual. So your argument is moot. Those greedy SOBs must have been abusing something wile I was on one of my vacations. I was saying a statement going on technical stuff not on knowledge of what cheaters do. Unlike all the lifeless people here that troll the forums of games they are not currently playing. I never stop by the site. How would I have known people what ways people was cheating. She asked why are they there and I said one possible reason. Thats the reason many other games has timers on their instances. logically that might be PWI's reason. Who know that might be part of PW reason and you don't know it. But I've no more time for you good day.

BTW Michael Please find me where a Mod or GM said your reason is why they did it. I went back to the time it was done and could not find one post by an employee saying anything about why they put the timer in. I see tons of people assuming thats why they did it but not 1 GM or Mod avatar saying thats why it was implemented. So your reason is just as factual as mine. So give me some proof. I checked every thread for 3 weeks at the time the timer was put in. I found nothing. Seems to me it's one of those times an assumption was soo strongly believed that it became a false fact.

BTW Comcast sucks. Their new cable box is always going out. Never get your TV service through them. TV please work soon so I can get off this damn computer.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · January 2011

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide wrote: »

Timer guarantees that the instance will close and not take up system resources.

No, it does not.

I will not explain how to retain the old instance, but there is a way for your entire squad to keep an instance past the reset timer (I mean, in theory --- when we kept the instance past the reset we only had three of us doing so, so I do not actually know if they have special logic that would kick in for a full squad doing this). It has some costs and disadvantages, and probably would not be something you want to do (especially in Fight for Love), but it is possible

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Sorry - I also remember this from the time it was changed; and the forums were being slightly wishy-washy about exactly what they were complaining about.

Finally after much asking I got a straight answer - people were going into an instance (usually a TT, but yes, some of the later FBs too) - killing the boss, and then logging off, leaving that character in place for eight hours.
Then they'd log back in, still be at the now respawned boss, and kill it.

Rinse wash and farm forever without needing to clear the mobs or the less-valuable bosses.

This, being a blatant exploit (as well as a source of riches) was closed. Cleaning out server resources would bea side effect - but was not the given reason for the change.

It was definitely badly done though. Lots of things could do with being allowed to run longer.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2011

The mobs all spawn on a timer and the bosses are timed as well. I'm not sure if you could make the quest take longer than 4 hours if you wanted to.

But really they should make all instances 8 hours like they did with TT. I don't see why they only addressed the timer issue with TT.

TheDan - Sanctuary · January 2011

Ah, I thought they put the Kill Counts inside to prevent people from killing respawned bosses, but I guess the instance timer thing for 4 hours would kind of do the trick too.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · January 2011

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ah, I thought they put the Kill Counts inside to prevent people from killing respawned bosses, but I guess the instance timer thing for 4 hours would kind of do the trick too.

That was to address people sneaking past all the mobs to get to the boss - not sure whether it was because they knew about sins or whether people were still walking through the walls then.

TheDan - Sanctuary · January 2011

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That was to address people sneaking past all the mobs to get to the boss - not sure whether it was because they knew about sins or whether people were still walking through the walls then.

Yeah, so I'm assuming the Kill Count goes hand in hand with the instance reset so that even if they were waiting for boss respawns, they'd still need to go back and get kill count again.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear · January 2011

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah, so I'm assuming the Kill Count goes hand in hand with the instance reset so that even if they were waiting for boss respawns, they'd still need to go back and get kill count again.

Hard to say, because if they added a mule to squad to hold the instance, that mule would instantly get the kill quest the whole squad had and count would be complete. It would then sit in the instance alone until everything reset, then presumably add people to squad to kill bosses, and they would then get the completed kill quest... since it is the same instance. So I think (I might be wrong though, just basing it on it being the same held instance) that the kill count would remain done.

But yes, I am of the opinion that all instances should be changed to 8 hours. There is no reason why they should leave the others at four... especially longer ones like FF. I especially love the fun and challenge of taking a group of all level 75 types into FF, but at that level it can take sometimes over the 4 hours. We came damn close one day with a group because of a bunch of d/cing and that was frustrating. Nothing resets in 8 hours. How could that hurt?

Eoria - Harshlands · January 2011

Regarding the kill count quest, it would remain done if the instance was held open because it was the same instance. All the doors would remain open as well.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · January 2011

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Regarding the kill count quest, it would remain done if the instance was held open because it was the same instance. All the doors would remain open as well.

^^ this.

People would hold open multiple instances... this wasn't really limited to any instance either, however 3-3, 3-2, 3-1 and 2-2 as well as FB79, FB89 and Lunar. You could clear the instance, open all the doors and your mob count, if there was one, would remain. Also, card bosses would respawn as well.

Gone are the days of running a half dozen 15-20 minute 3-3s, skipping all the bosses you don't want to do then moving onto the next reset held instance, just to do it again the next day until server maintenance hits.

And unlike wall hacks, this wasn't a glitch... one can say it was an exploit, but whoever held an instance only to let it reset later was using the game mechanics as it was designed, but perhaps in a way that wasn't ever conceived. PWE knew this had been happening for many years... thought nothing of it until they realized how much money they were losing and stopped it.

Changing this wasn't about server loads, it was about the lost revenue that farmers gained whenever a gold mat dropped.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2011

You'd have a hard time convincing me that leaving an alt inside an instance for 24 hours for bosses to respawn was a part of intended gameplay. There is no NPC that tells you to do this and it wasn't mentioned in any official guide. It was definitely an exploit and timers are a fine way of removing it. 8 hours for all instances would be better than 4.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · January 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You'd have a hard time convincing me that leaving an alt inside an instance for 24 hours for bosses to respawn was a part of intended gameplay. There is no NPC that tells you to do this and it wasn't mentioned in any official guide. It was definitely an exploit and timers are a fine way of removing it. 8 hours for all instances would be better than 4.

/facepalm

one can say it was an exploit, but whoever held an instance only to let it reset later was using the game mechanics as it was designed, but perhaps in a way that wasn't ever conceived.

What part of the game design regarding instances not resetting or not having a timer or bosses respawning are NOT a part of normal game mechanics before the changes?

Please explain how an instance that didn't boot you out or end was a glitch or a bug.

Please explain how a boss or mob respawning is a glitch or a bug.

/thread

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear · January 2011

what i never could figure out was why they made anything in an instance respawn without (or before) the instance resetting completely. there just doesn't seem any need for it.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

What part of the game design regarding instances not resetting or not having a timer or bosses respawning are NOT a part of normal game mechanics before the changes?

Your phrasing was "one can say it is an exploit". I was agreeing with this point and going further by saying it was most definitely an exploit since it in no way represents intended gameplay.

Whether or not it is a glitch/bug is a different question and depends on the implementation. It is possible that mobs have a flag which indicates that a mob should not respawn after death but due to some programming bug this flag is not interpreted properly and is ignored. It is possible that the person who created the default respawn time assumed there was some mechanism to prevent instances from being held that long.

For me to affirm that it is a bug would require me to inspect the source code. I don't need to do this to say it is an exploit.

whoever held an instance only to let it reset later was using the game mechanics as it was designed, but perhaps in a way that wasn't ever conceived.

There is no evidence that bosses were "designed" to respawn. Yes they have been implemented so they respawn but to design something is a statement of intention. Since an instance reset has been added there is plenty of evidence that there was no intention for players to be able to respawn bosses.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · January 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Your phrasing was "one can say it is an exploit". I was agreeing with this point and going further by saying it was most definitely an exploit since it in no way represents intended gameplay.

Whether or not it is a glitch/bug is a different question and depends on the implementation. It is possible that mobs have a flag which indicates that a mob should not respawn after death but due to some programming bug this flag is not interpreted properly and is ignored. It is possible that the person who created the default respawn time assumed there was some mechanism to prevent instances from being held that long.

For me to affirm that it is a bug would require me to inspect the source code. I don't need to do this to say it is an exploit.

There is no evidence that bosses were "designed" to respawn. Yes they have been implemented so they respawn but to design something is a statement of intention. Since an instance reset has been added there is plenty of evidence that there was no intention for players to be able to respawn bosses.

Actually mobs have a respawn timer of a few seconds to a number of hours. Bosses in TT and FBs respawn in 22 hours. World bosses respawn in 24 hours. Bosses in Frost do not respawn at all.

Apparently there is some sort of designation as well as timer on which certain creatures are designed to respawn or not.

The fact there is no consistency leads me to believe they picked the duration, perhaps without any real reasoning, and there is no apparent default value.

How this mechanic can be construed to be either a bug, glitch or an exploit in itself is beyond me. Mobs and bosses in instances that did not kick you out were behaving exactly how you would expect them to.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2011

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

The fact there is no consistency leads me to believe they picked the duration, perhaps without any real reasoning, and there is no apparent default value.

How this mechanic can be construed to be either a bug, glitch or an exploit in itself is beyond me. Mobs and bosses in instances that did not kick you out were behaving exactly how you would expect them to.

If people were farming these bosses as they intended there would have been no reason to add a reset timer.

Again the game's code base is pretty old and a lack of communication between teams could easily cause unintended behavior like this.

Maybe the content creators didn't understand that some of the parameters of the boss code were optional so they put a random large number with a misunderstanding that instances could not be held that long. Usually the people who add in entries for all the game content are not as tech savvy as those that develop the game engine.

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide · January 2011

Tigriss_o - Raging Tide wrote: »

Aww poor baby spill his milk and need someone to take it out on? It's the truth instances can pile up and cause major server lag if they don't close.

hi tiggy ^,..,^

Selak - Dreamweaver · January 2011

I thought i read somewhere that some factions were clearing instance, then setting catshop up to hold instance open as substitute guild meeting places, creating a backlog of open instances and therefore lag, timers prevent this exploit.

NightRage - Raging Tide · January 2011

Selak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I thought i read somewhere that some factions were clearing instance, then setting catshop up to hold instance open as substitute guild meeting places, creating a backlog of open instances and therefore lag, timers prevent this exploit.

Not sure if troll...

Michael_Dark - Lost City · January 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

If people were farming these bosses as they intended there would have been no reason to add a reset timer.

Whether or not people were farming 'as intended' is moot.

Again the game's code base is pretty old and a lack of communication between teams could easily cause unintended behavior like this.

You're making a lot of assumptions.

Maybe the content creators didn't understand that some of the parameters of the boss code were optional so they put a random large number with a misunderstanding that instances could not be held that long. Usually the people who add in entries for all the game content are not as tech savvy as those that develop the game engine.

Fact 1: Mobs and bosses respawn. At least most of them.

Fact 2: At one time instances had no timers.

Fact 1 + Fact 2 = a consequence that is acting exactly as it was coded to do.

There is no unintended behavior. There is no glitching. There are no bugs. The way the game was designed let this happen regardless if it was planned or not. It was not a bug, programming error or mistake. If anything it was an oversight, but anything more than that is just stretching the truth of the matter.

Please....

The only reason it was changed was because they saw an increase in potential revenue. Otherwise they would have fixed this known issue some 3+ years ago?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2011

There is no unintended behavior. There is no glitching. There are no bugs. The way the game was designed let this happen regardless if it was planned or not. It was not a bug, programming error or mistake. If anything it was an oversight, but anything more than that is just stretching the truth of the matter.

Please....

The only reason it was changed was because they saw an increase in potential revenue. Otherwise they would have fixed this known issue some 3+ years ago?

OMG wow. Yep, PWI is a game without bugs or glitches... hahaha. Anything that hasn't been fixed yet must not be a bug.

I guess I can't argue with that. You win.

Instance Timer Shorter than Quest, LOL

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