For everyone asking about PW-MY's upcoming APS "nerf"...

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Ellestor - Heavens Tear
Ellestor - Heavens Tear Posts: 125 Arc User
edited December 2010 in General Discussion
You're all bloody daft. They aren't "nerfing" anything. Attack per second works fine, what they are fixing is the exponential bonus that "Interval Between Hits -0.1/-0.05 Seconds" gives.

Currently that item add on is SEVERELY erroneous and any player using "APS" builds is in fact in breach of terms of service and potentially ban worthy as they are knowingly exploiting a bug. And for everyone saying "You newb, APS has 5.0 cap for reason". It does, it has the cap so that when using skills and sparks that you don't attack too fast, to explain further I will go into detail.

This is a small snippit of the email I sent to PWI, PW-MY, W2, and the other branches of PWE (Translated of course since many of you do not speak chinese.)


"I've checked calculations hundreds of times and through it all there is no explanation how players are obtaining 5.0 attacks per second. All gear that contains the "- interval" add on has either -0.1 or -0.05 seconds. Being as the fastest weapons in the game has 1.43 attacks per second it's impossible using the stated additions to the items. See following.

Weapon: Interval Between Hits -0.1 Seconds
Gauntlets: Interval Between Hits -0.1 Seconds
Leggings (Nirvana): Interval Between Hits -0.05 Seconds
Cloak: Interval Between Hits -0.05 Seconds
Tome: Interval Between Hits -0.05 Seconds
Set Bonus (Two Piece Twilight Temple Heavy Armour): Interval Between Hits -0.05 Seconds
Set Bonus (Two Piece Twilight Temple Light Armour): Interval Between Hits -0.05 Seconds

If you do the calculations you get a total of -0.45 seconds for a grand total of 1.88 attacks per second."


Now I know all you "APS" people are going to flame me to oblivion but guess what, you're ruining the game. It has nothing to do with the cash shop, it has to do with the fact that unless you are 4.0 or 5.0 APS then you're useless now, which pretty much defeats the purpose of having Venomancers, Wizards, Psychics, and any other class that doesn't use high speed weaponry. I've been a Blademaster since day one, I was one of the first fist users and I took serious ridicule for it and yes, since my return I've heard "You newb, just get APS gear." constantly, so much so that I discontinued use of my Blademaster on the general principle that I refuse to exploit to be a "good player". Everyone whining about being "nerfed" needs to just stop talking, you aren't being "nerfed" at all, you are being fixed. Have some honour and pride, learn to play your class properly and you won't need to rely on "APS" to be a good player, skill will compensate and if anyone knows fist/claw like I do then you'll know that it is something to be feared with or without high attack per second.

But I digress, let us end here and for all those who are going to do so... Let the flaming begin.
Post edited by Ellestor - Heavens Tear on
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    What?
    ................
  • Roseary - Sanctuary
    Roseary - Sanctuary Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    I always thought -int was correct, seeing as it divides time and not not actual attacks.
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    1.43+0.45 = 1.88

    *sobs*
  • Tonttuu - Heavens Tear
    Tonttuu - Heavens Tear Posts: 261 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    noone cares abt MY-EN so wats ur point?
  • Renza - Raging Tide
    Renza - Raging Tide Posts: 1,939 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    i always thought something was a-miss about how the aps worked and the -interval stuff, it never did ever add up to 5.0 a second, at least theres some clarification, now lets hope they *fix* it, then watch the nerd rage begin.
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Um.... what?

    -interval is just what it says, it reduces the interval between hits, which is the inverse of your attack rate.

    If -interval was meant to reduce attack speed, don't you think it'd be called "+attack rate%"?

    And btw, even the in-game +attack rate% stuff is still just a reduction from your interval at the state percentage.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Ellestor - Heavens Tear
    Ellestor - Heavens Tear Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    My point foolish one, is that PW-MY is PWI, they are the same company and same patches. The only difference comes in the timeframe for the patches to be translated and recoded for us, so if theirs is patched ours will as well. Might want to research before commenting.

    In other words follow the old quote.

    "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    My point foolish one, is that PW-MY is PWI, they are the same company and same patches. The only difference comes in the timeframe for the patches to be translated and recoded for us, so if theirs is patched ours will as well. Might want to research before commenting.

    In other words follow the old quote.

    "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

    Um... PW-MY is not the same as PWI.

    The version you're thinking of is PW-CH. You know, the Chinese one. Not the Malaysian one.

    Might want to get your terminology right before commenting.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Roseary - Sanctuary
    Roseary - Sanctuary Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    My point foolish one, is that PW-MY is PWI, they are the same company and same patches. The only difference comes in the timeframe for the patches to be translated and recoded for us, so if theirs is patched ours will as well. Might want to research before commenting.

    In other words follow the old quote.

    "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

    I keep forgetting we don't come to the forums to have intelligent conversations, only to flame and call each other names.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    uuuum that doesnt really make any sense.

    u say that fists have 1.43 APS, then that the max interval u can get is -0.45sec and then
    u.. add them? to come to the conclusion that the max APS is 1.85 APS?

    how can u add APS+sec? that's like adding oranges and apples or hours and km/h.

    while i'm not 100% sure how -int works my assumption is this:
    1.43APS so 1/1.43 = 0.69 sec between attacks
    no we remove the -0.45sec from the sec and we have 0.25 sec between the attack which leads to 4APS. now usually u just less pieces and stay to 3.33 APS which goes to 5APS with demon spark (for the classes that get -int at least)


    the game mechanics are flawless and it's certainly not a bug or glitch. it's just that ur logic fails since u add seconds to attacks per second.

    and I say that while i am the one without a pve job due to 5aps xd
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    In other words follow the old quote.

    "derp derp."

    Learn2Math. You're adding Interval between hits and Attack speed...

    No one cares about PW-MY, this is PWI. Not the same version.
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  • Ellestor - Heavens Tear
    Ellestor - Heavens Tear Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    The math isn't flawed, you are just trying to give reason not to be "nerfed" Attack speed on the game reads "Attacks per second" and interval items read "-?.?? seconds". Use logic.
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Read my original post, I list all the companies. PW-MY is just where the patch came out first and is the one in reference.

    PW-MY is a year behind on patches, smart one. They don't come out with anything first.
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  • Tonttuu - Heavens Tear
    Tonttuu - Heavens Tear Posts: 261 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    My point foolish one, is that PW-MY is PWI, they are the same company and same patches. The only difference comes in the timeframe for the patches to be translated and recoded for us, so if theirs is patched ours will as well. Might want to research before commenting.

    In other words follow the old quote.

    "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

    PW-MY is lincenced version they get patches like 1 year later or so... PWI runs by Beijing Perfect World aka PW-CN :P
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Read my original post, I list all the companies. PW-MY is just where the patch came out first and is the one in reference.

    Um, no it's not.

    PW-CH is the original version.

    PW-MY is one of the versions hosted by a company other than PWE, so they bought a license.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Ellestor - Heavens Tear
    Ellestor - Heavens Tear Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Again, PW-MY already has the patch in testing, W2 (PW-CH) hasn't implemented it yet.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    The game mechanic behaves as designed and the math works. It was just designed very poorly. Asymptotic increasing returns is being abused with fast weapons.
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  • ElderSig - Dreamweaver
    ElderSig - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The math isn't flawed, you are just trying to give reason not to be "nerfed" Attack speed on the game reads "Attacks per second" and interval items read "-?.?? seconds". Use logic.


    ATTACK RATE =/= INTERVAL BETWEEN HITS

    ok.... sit down and listen

    Attack rate of fists = 1.43 attacks per second

    ok

    So the interval between hits for fists = .69 seconds ( 1 second / 1. 43 attacks)

    So .69s interval between hits - .45s interval between hits = .24s interval between hits (i'm ignoring PWI rounding system)

    So now, that means a person (with fists) with -.45s interval between hits gear has an interval between hits of .24s.

    So to calculate attack rate now we take 1 second / .24 seconds = 4 attacks per second.

    Comprende?


    P.S. Ask before you assume you're right and send in a ticket.
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  • Conavar - Heavens Tear
    Conavar - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Again, PW-MY already has the patch in testing, W2 (PW-CH) hasn't implemented it yet.

    Hmmm so you are saying a patch has been released in another version before it has even been released in the home version (Pw-CN ) the one where all the patches come from ....


    b:bye
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  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Again, PW-MY already has the patch in testing, W2 (PW-CH) hasn't implemented it yet.

    So... you are saying MY-EN will have a patch that changes -interval to +aps yet also showing us you have no idea how aps works?

    I don't get it.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    "I've checked calculations hundreds of times and through it all there is no explanation how players are obtaining 5.0 attacks per second. All gear that contains the "- interval" add on has either -0.1 or -0.05 seconds. Being as the fastest weapons in the game has 1.43 attacks per second it's impossible using the stated additions to the items. See following.

    <snip>

    If you do the calculations you get a total of -0.45 seconds for a grand total of 1.88 attacks per second."

    On behalf of Heaven's Tear, I would like to formally apologize for the creation of this thread. Not all of our players have a solid misunderstanding of game mechanics as this individual. We hope that the future discussions involving members of our server will be of a more positive, relevant, and correct nature.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    *ramblings of a buffoon*

    PW-MY doesn't fix anything. They're just a publisher. You got dropped on the head at an early age, I can tell. PWI and PW-CN have the latest versions of the code. PW-MY does not.

    b:bye
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    @Ellestor

    From the reply youve quoted, I believe even the PW staff (if it were a Dev...am shocked) doesnt know how the ingame mechanics work.

    Perhaps you could reply to them stating the following example:-

    Lets consider a fist with base attack speed of 1.43 aps. In essence, it does 1.43 attacks per second and if you calculate as below, you will get that the defaul interval for fist is 0.69 (i.e. there is an 1 attack after every 0.69 seconds)

    1.43 attacks = 1 sec
    1 attack = x

    x = 1/ 1.43 = 0.69

    Now add a -0.05 gear and you get 0.64 interval with the fist

    So,

    1 attack every 0.64 sec
    x attack every 1 sec

    x = 1 / 0.64 = 1.5625

    Now jump to your setup of -0.45 interval gear. With fists your attack would become as following

    1 attack every 0.69 - 0.45 = 0.24
    x attack every 1 sec

    x = 1/ 0.22 = 4.5454

    I am not sure on how the rounding works but I guess am close to what I wanted to say.

    Add a further speed boost skill (demon spark / second wind) and it would probably over shoot 5 aps but since the cap is 5...youre stuck there.

    So unless you say that they failed maths or dont understand what they implemented, I do not see a bug here.

    If they wish to change how attack speed boosts should work, one probably change I can see is that they remove -interval completely and replace with % attack speed similar to % channeling but with slightly higher values (since we dont have as many equips with -interval as you have -channeling)
  • Tonttuu - Heavens Tear
    Tonttuu - Heavens Tear Posts: 261 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    PW-MY doesn't fix anything. They're just a publisher. You got dropped on the head at an early age, I can tell. PWI and PW-CN have the latest versions of the code. PW-MY does not.

    b:bye

    this +100 :P
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    i ninja'ed u allb:cool

    @Elviron second wind is an instant healing skill, i think u mean wind shield
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Ellestor - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Currently that item add on is SEVERELY erroneous and any player using "APS" builds is in fact in breach of terms of service and potentially ban worthy as they are knowingly exploiting a bug.
    ...
    Being as the fastest weapons in the game has 1.43 attacks per second it's impossible using the stated additions to the items.
    ...
    If you do the calculations you get a total of -0.45 seconds for a grand total of 1.88 attacks per second."

    I always thought that 1.43-0.45 was 0.98?

    b:avoid
  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    @Thanos

    Youre right....I always mix up between wind shield and second wind. But yea I meant wind shield.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I am not sure on how the rounding works but I guess am close to what I wanted to say.

    Rounds the interval to the nearest 0.05. When it's balanced, rounds down.
    If they wish to change how attack speed boosts should work, one probably change I can see is that they remove -interval completely and replace with % attack speed similar to % channeling but with slightly higher values (since we dont have as many equips with -interval as you have -channeling)

    The thing is, the game already has +attack speed%. Skills such as Demon Quick Shot, Demon Spark, Cyclone Heel, Sage Slipstream Strike, all give +attack speed%. However, in the game, +attack speed% is defined as -interval%.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Noskrad - Heavens Tear
    Noskrad - Heavens Tear Posts: 297 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    lol I'm not worried about being unable to defeat others without 5aps, in fact I never had a single -int gear yet till now, even so I already defeated even barbs around my lvl in duels.

    But I would like to see my sin moving that fast anytime, it just looks kool to me!, it's like part of the identity of the sins: thei're suposed to be fast like hell on anything!. But well, if that will get... call it nerfed or fixed or whatever, but if the attack speed for sins will be lowered, I'll miss it b:sad
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  • Elviron - Dreamweaver
    Elviron - Dreamweaver Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited December 2010
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    @Olbaze
    What I meant was that they replace the -.0x mod on equips to + % attack Speed. Say instead of -0.05 have 10% more attack speed and instead of 0.01 have it as 20%.

    That way the max you can achieve is 90% more attack speed. Converting that to -interval would be more balanced I guess.

    In relation to fists...you would probably achieve 2.70 as base with max gear. Add to this wind shield and demon spark (30% increase means 3.5 APS) and you would probably not be able to perma spark.

    This would further give other classes equal footing as well since the DPS would be much lower with fists.
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