Fist Sins...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary
Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
edited December 2010 in Assassin
Sorry for making a thread about this since I bet there are other threads but I assume I'll have follow-up questions to ask and I didn't want to necro or hijack, So...

Are restatting and fists considered the end game for Sins?

If you restat to fists, which require 1.5 str, and 2 dex, would you want to add and extra str per level to be able to wear HA and also boost your damage?

If you did add 2.5 str per level and had the option of wearing HA, would you combine LA and HA to cover your magic defense also?

I see the HA build as listing 2str/2dex/1 vit. All vit is removed at endgame still, right?

Okeano, I know you restatted to fists. How is it working out for you, between weapon switching and damage output and everything else? Is the low amount of strength making up for the increased aps?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=b6b34d2d082f1539 (I know that's easily 1 bil + in gear, just using it as an end game example)
Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
Post edited by Sakubatou - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • KingTank - Heavens Tear
    KingTank - Heavens Tear Posts: 298 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I wouldn't go HA because Sins get damage from Dex and not Str their layout is like archers and you don't see any HA Archers do you
  • Meyki - Sanctuary
    Meyki - Sanctuary Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    KingTank - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I wouldn't go HA because Sins get damage from Dex and not Str their layout is like archers and you don't see any HA Archers do you
    Dex. boosts your bow/dagers damage. Str. boosts fist damage.
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    KingTank - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I wouldn't go HA because Sins get damage from Dex and not Str their layout is like archers and you don't see any HA Archers do you

    I know at least two on Sanct.

    I also know a sin with 5.0 claws and 2.86 daggers (might not be exact numbers though, been a while since I've squaded with him). It works pretty fine for him.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    KingTank - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I wouldn't go HA because Sins get damage from Dex and not Str their layout is like archers and you don't see any HA Archers do you

    Sins get their damage from dex if they are using daggers. I'm asking about a fist build, which gets its damage from strength. I've been seeing 2str/lvl fist builds in forums which seems like such low damage I'd think they'd add more, and if they did how viable would HA be. Considering this would be end game it would refine much better for more hp to make up for the loss of mdef between LA and HA.

    As far as damage goes an end game dagger/LA sin would have about 450 dex after add-ons.
    The build I posted of a HA/fist sin has about 300 str after add-ons.

    The fists would give a -.1 increase in aps, though. Since str and dex have the same multipliers the dagger sin would have about 33% (guessing)more damage before attack speed is considered. If the fist sin reaches the attack speed cap at 5.0, that would be equal damage output to a 3.33 aps dagger sin. If the dagger sin hit 4.0 (say, with demon spark) he would out dd. If they have the same amount of -int but aren't that high lets say 2.5 aps and 2.0 thats a 20% attack speed difference and again is less than the 33% damage difference.

    So it looks to me, that the gains of fist aps don't start to occur until you reach over 5.0 with them, which is impossible. I mean, you'd get chi quicker but sins are chi factories. So the real benefit would be having added enough to strength to wear HA for more def, but I see some people say fist sins still wear LA.

    And all of this damage increase is before considering loss of accuracy, and the defense increase is before considering loss of evasion. This is why I am so confused on this build.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The only reason to use fists is to farm your Nirvana leggings and Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, since getting 4-5 aps with Deicide is easy.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I stated Sin to HA last 2X, and haven't switched back yet. I never intended to PK in HA and claws/fists but I got bored of farming and it hasn't been too bad PKing. It would be the best if I can be 3.33 base with daggers of course, or at least close to that. But I sort of gave up on gearing up Sin, and using my BM's Nirvana armor + TT100 fists gives me much better defense and DPS than my rank top, TT90 legs and TT80 daggers. The next 150 rapture crystals I get will go towards G15 axes, not Nirvana daggers... So it'll will be quite a while until Sin can actually get decent gears that switching back to LA doesn't actually cut my DPS, since my TT100 fists are +10.

    I know I've spoken out against HA Sin and sound hypocritical right now, but I really can't afford to fund 3 sets of endgame gears with just one catshop. Wifey's Nirvana sword cost 220 mil and she still needs TT99 tops and legs + refines and gems. BM's gears will cost in the billion+, and there's just isn't enough coins for Sin.

    I didn't really follow any specific build, but just took 200 out of DEX and put in STR . Right now I have 336 STR, 235 DEX and 56 VIT with gears. I believe if you are going with fists, you might as well go with close to 3-2 build to maximize DPS instead of half and half. LA doesn't really offer enough m def to be worth while if you go full fists, but since I already have LA boots and wrists made + HA ornaments, I will just roll with them for now. When I get tome, then I can switch to magic ornaments to cover magic. PvP wise, switching weapon does take slight longer in critical times, such as having to switch weapon then force stealth instead of just spamming the stealth button. It's something to get use to, but it wasn't too bad for me since I was a BM to start out with.
  • KingTank - Heavens Tear
    KingTank - Heavens Tear Posts: 298 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Meyki - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Dex. boosts your bow/dagers damage. Str. boosts fist damage.

    i thats right my bad lol b:chuckle

    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The only reason to use fists is to farm your Nirvana leggings and Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, since getting 4-5 aps with Deicide is easy.

    thats the same thing i am doing, gotta get pan gu's also for 5aps for the daggers. Just gonna sell the Deics when i get enough money
  • Ignasia - Heavens Tear
    Ignasia - Heavens Tear Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    So u have to go fist before u go 5 aps with dags? Couldn't I just use the tt80 dags to get 5aps? And then get the nirvana days and legs?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Ignasia - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So u have to go fist before u go 5 aps with dags? Couldn't I just use the tt80 dags to get 5aps? And then get the nirvana days and legs?

    The problem is that with Daggers, you need a total of -0.5 interval to get 5 aps.
    TT99 wrist + boots -0.15
    TT99 neck + belt -0.05
    Lunar cape -0.05
    TT80 weapon -0.05
    Rank 4 armor -0.05

    Total -0.35

    So you still need -0.15 for 5 aps. The choices you have are:
    Event Tome + Nirvana leggings + Rank 8
    Event Tome + Nirvana leggings + Barrier Thorn: Nirvana
    Even Tome + Rank 8 + Barrier Thorn: Nirvana
    Nirvana Leggings + Rank 8 + Barrier Thorn: Nirvana

    The point being that you need at least 1 piece of Nirvana every single time, and then two out of: Nirvana weapon, event tome and rank 8.

    If you had Gorenox Vanity or Deicide, you'd be 5 aps without any of those four.

    And it's rather unrealistic to expect a person to have Nirvana gear without ever having gone to Nirvana. That leaves you with farming Rank 8 and an event tome, which costs you an extra 820m, whereas you could get a Deicide for 70m, or a Gorenox Vanity for 20m. That, plus an Advanced Reset Note at less than 10m. So 30-80m vs 820m, which would you pick?
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Ignasia - Heavens Tear
    Ignasia - Heavens Tear Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    Ok thanks^_^
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CoMaShi - Sanctuary
    CoMaShi - Sanctuary Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    well i'am 5.0 aps sin with decides
    but i have only 146 str to be able to use them......but i tested it i do same dmg sparked as bms with same weapon (although the have more str)
    my dmg is 8-9k~ sparked and 2kmax w/o
    bm's dmg is 8-10k sparked and 3-4k w/o

    but im getting to close to be 5aps with daggers soon :P maybe by next jan :)
  • Ignasia - Heavens Tear
    Ignasia - Heavens Tear Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited December 2010
    I still think it's bull that sins who specialize in daggers need to go 5 aps fist before 5 aps dag. Well I guess my cleric will be doing a butt load of nirvana runs when he hits 100. My sin is gonna be my new main and don't have the money to go 5 aps fist. If I wanted that I would have gone for a bm instead...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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