Thread for GM's, How to get people playing casters again

Thank you.

Another poorly thought out solution to nerf all melees at the cost of 5 APSers.

I'll say it again, not all melees are 5 APS or anywhere even close to it. And if you cant afford 5 APS, you're in the same boat as the "casters". The problem is 5 APSers, not all melees. Dont make a solution which causes more problems then it solves. Any solution to the 5 APS problem will have to only affect high APS melee, and not all of them.

Back to the Drawing board with you.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Another poorly thought out solution to nerf all melees at the cost of 5 APSers.

I'll say it again, not all melees are 5 APS or anywhere even close to it. And if you cant afford 5 APS, you're in the same boat as the "casters". The problem is 5 APSers, not all melees. Dont make a solution which causes more problems then it solves. Any solution to the 5 APS problem will have to only affect high APS melee, and not all of them.

Back to the Drawing board with you.

did you read the OP properly at all?
she suggested to simply make the seal range have less distance so us casters dont have to deal with it with it being bad enough that it takes abit to get our skill off, never mind get sealed in mid, then try again, there would be no change at all to close range DDs.

back to...what ever thread your trolling/not bothering to read.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

We need something that nerfs high aps but doesn't affect anything else.

i volunteer to go buff bosses with soul of vengeanceb:chuckle
or teach them soulburn b:avoid

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

So i say, make it juuust a tad harder for those people but DO NOT take the effort they put into away.

i like how you say effort, when the majority just sliped there CC into the game and bought it, not many people actually bothered to farm, proof? was the game full of 5aps before packs? nope.

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

Let them keep the 5.0 aps and just make it so Nirvana has a prequisite squad outlay.

Idea: Either get in with a rainbow squad or a squad only made out of 5.0's/melee, which means NO cleric.
Rainbow squad gets "normal" mode.
aps squad gets "harder" mode ?

have had this idea chucked around a few times, it seems the only viable solution, but without the hard mode, just simply a mode that requires a certain set of classes to be involved, such as

1 barb (minimum)
1 cleric (minimum)
2 magic DD (psy, cleric, mage, veno)
2 physical DD (BM, barb, archer, sin)

so if the dungeon had that sort of requirement, the most 5 aps in a party would be 2 (or 3 if the barb tank had 5 aps), but at least non 5apers and the magic classes would be able to get involved properly, question is, are the devs smart enough.

Nobody has the damn time to look for all 5.0 squads. Even top DDs of the server will run with a cleric and at least 1 other robe. It's not 5.0s only running stuff by themselves, it's 5.0s only running stuff with their friends and spouses. There is no 5.0 elitist conspiracy. It's only backwater squads that have suck DD that will only ask for 5.0s. For that reason, imposing a squad setup is just pointless and annoying.

About the seal, I see the random aggro after the seal as the more annoying problem. Usually it's the cleric that will grab aggro first after seal wears off as well.

Macenza - Archosaur wrote: »

i like how you say effort, when the majority just sliped there CC into the game and bought it, not many people actually bothered to farm, proof? was the game full of 5aps before packs? nope.

kinda wrong, packs opened possibility for everyone to merchant 5APS for their chars..
i know more merchanted 5APS chars then CC 5APS chars..

Macenza - Archosaur wrote: »

have had this idea chucked around a few times, it seems the only viable solution, but without the hard mode, just simply a mode that requires a certain set of classes to be involved, such as

1 barb (minimum)
1 cleric (minimum)
2 magic DD (psy, cleric, mage, veno)
2 physical DD (BM, barb, archer, sin)

so if the dungeon had that sort of requirement, the most 5 aps in a party would be 2 (or 3 if the barb tank had 5 aps), but at least non 5apers and the magic classes would be able to get involved properly, question is, are the devs smart enough.

nothing would be changed really.. you would have APS barb/BM/archer/sin and cleric/veno.. and its regular APS squad.. and its rainbow squad..

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I still say give Nirvana bosses reflect buffs. XD

I mean think about it - 5aps classes gain/hold aggro because of pure DPS. If a good portion of that DPS were reflected on them, even their precious sage Bloodpaint probably couldn't save them. Whereas a barb's method of aggro control is only a single hit with a significant hate bonus - more than enough for a cleric to handle.

again the problem is that this will also nerf every other melee char that doesn't have aps.
I don't think there really is any other solution than doing longer runs and squadding with your friends.

Either way someone will always pull at the short end of the stick.
b:surrender

I'm writing this in hopes that maybe it will be taken as a suggestion for future expansions. to aid in balancing with the other classes.

The problem lays in squads only wanting to run with 4-5aps. When you state that you're not of said orientation, you get either punted, or treated as an opener. If you want to run a Nirvana with lower than a certain attacks per second, (I only have 2) you do have to set it up on your own. However, the issue still remains that people will still leave parties, if the tank is stated as "Not having aps."

This became a problem when random aggro was placed onto the bosses there.


Suggestion?


Make multiple Nirvana run modes:

Solo mode Nirvana: which has a chance to the "normal amount of chests" the bosses are simpler to fight, allowing non-aps classes to either catch up in damage output, or if they so desire, to build aps.

Squad mode Nirvana: Having a chance to drop "2-3" chests ber boss. Keep the same boss random aggro, but make it drop easier.


I dunno.....


Fixing the APS issue needs to be done, but PWI doesnt seem interested in fixing the issue, nor balancing PVE so that all classes can enjoy it. APS isnt a new thing to PWI, and has been constituted since it was made.


Well..... They could do what private servers do.

Make having more than 3aps a bannable offense.


they could;

Make Claws and fists class specific, which would be bad for their income, because their larger cash shop players would then not want to spend money in game.


Mabye they could;

Make 4-5 aps harder to obtain? By lowering the - interval aquired per piece of equipment? Again that would cause cash shoppers to leave the game, because they already spent large quantities of dollars in game.


A good suggestion could be;


To give a damage increase to classes using their class specific weapons. Increasing Mastery damages per class. Decreasing damage dealt from classes that dont have masteries for certain weapon types, by 50%; such as an archer using claws that have a base damage of 498-673, instead they would have a base attack for that specific weapon of 249 - 336. However if the archer used a bow, which the base damage would be 1195-2219, plus their mastery and dex, would get an additional boon of 50% for using a class specific weapon.


An easier way to say this would be a bm using a set of claws would get +20 attack level, while a barb, sin, archer, would ger -20.

Even the possibilty of giving - interval when wielding class specific weapons, such as bow crossbow, slingshot, axe. by .1 or greater.



doing this wouldn't completely discourage people from using aps weapons, but it would breathe some life back into non aps classes, such as wizards, Psys, clerics venos and archers. Remember its just a suggestion.

Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »

again the problem is that this will also nerf every other melee char that doesn't have aps.
I don't think there really is any other solution than doing longer runs and squadding with your friends.

Either way someone will always pull at the short end of the stick.
b:surrender

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:shocked I don't think even I could keep up with healing everyone with bosses that have reflect and there are a lot of people out there that know just how spam- happy I am.

This is somewhat true, but all it would mean is that there would, perhaps, need to be a second cleric in-squad to help heal a second melee DD. Or, hell - why not let it be designed for casters/archers instead, so there's only one tank? I think the worst side-effect of that would be that DD meleers would need to use a bow instead - which is only really a problem for BMs since Archers and Sins have no problem with bows, and the barb would be tanking in this scenario anyway.

But how about this idea instead? Give the bosses a short-range AOE debuff which reduces attack speed. Have the boss cast this repeatedly so that purifying the debuff would be nigh-useless. Let's say it's a 40% debuff. That would knock a base 5.0 player down to 3.0, and force a non-base-5.0 to use demon spark / pots / etc. in order to retain some of their aps. By contrast, let's take a 2.5aps player - they'd only go down to 1.5, which is near the normal attack rate of fists. In this way, stacking -int would still have a benefit, but it's not nearly as broken a benefit.

Or we could just, y'know, cap aps at 3 and solve the problem in every possible instance. -_- ijs

EDIT: No, I've never been to Nirvana. I'm speaking only from basic common sense about how boss-running works.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is somewhat true, but all it would mean is that there would, perhaps, need to be a second cleric in-squad to help heal a second melee DD. Or, hell - why not let it be designed for casters/archers instead, so there's only one tank? I think the worst side-effect of that would be that DD meleers would need to use a bow instead - which is only really a problem for BMs since Archers and Sins have no problem with bows, and the barb would be tanking in this scenario anyway.

Well... I guess this is a decent idea since BMs can just spam genie chi skills, DD with bows (or use axes for skill spamming...) and spam HF. It does sound stupid but it isn't the worst idea I've heard.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But how about this idea instead? Give the bosses a short-range AOE debuff which reduces attack speed. Have the boss cast this repeatedly so that purifying the debuff would be nigh-useless. Let's say it's a 40% debuff. That would knock a base 5.0 player down to 3.0, and force a non-base-5.0 to use demon spark / pots / etc. in order to retain some of their aps. By contrast, let's take a 2.5aps player - they'd only go down to 1.5, which is near the normal attack rate of fists. In this way, stacking -int would still have a benefit, but it's not nearly as broken a benefit.

Or we could just, y'know, cap aps at 3 and solve the problem in every possible instance. -_- ijs

That would do just fine if all sins/BMs had that 5 aps. Most of them don't and they would have to use other weapons, in this case axes. Of course BMs might still get squads for HFing but low-aps sins for sure wouldn't.

Hard cap at 3.33 wouldn't solve much (if anything at all). Of course 3.33 isn't permaspark for BMs or archers but it sure is for sins.

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Most of the time... most of the people complaining about not being able to get squads are expecting others to do all the work for them. This predates BH or Nirvana, but surely includes them.

It's not just the squadding. Do you think nobody here cares about the flat-out broken nature of 5.0? Even most of the 5.0s themselves admit it. Just, very few of them have the nerve to actually suggest it be fixed, because they like the profit too damn much.

But as for the squadding - it's not about expecting others to carry you through it. It's about just the climate of squad recruiting in general. How is one supposed to find one of these fabled squads, made up of the best and brightest (and incidentally, non-5.0) players on one's server? Maybe you have a FL full of a hundred such people of every possible class, but not everyone does. And you shouldn't have to be in a "top" faction to be able to play with people who know what they're doing.

WC? Please. Maybe you've seen something different on Lost City, but on HT I have never once seen a WC for Nirvana squad members that didn't specifically use aps as the screening process (unless they were looking for a cleric, and even those WCs are extrordinarily rare).

That would do just fine if all sins/BMs had that 5 aps. Most of them don't and they would have to use other weapons, in this case axes. Of course BMs might still get squads for HFing but low-aps sins for sure wouldn't.

Hard cap at 3.33 wouldn't solve much (if anything at all). Of course 3.33 isn't permaspark for BMs or archers but it sure is for sins.

I don't follow. How would a hard cap of 3 or 3.33 aps hurt anyone other than people who break that aps? If they don't have 4 or 5 aps, how are they hurt? And for that matter, when did permaspark become some kind of moral obligation? o.O

JaydeMonkey - Sanctuary wrote: »

I am mostly talking about high end instances where all bosses seal constantly, melee classes that arnt APS already are as useless as casters on these bosses, so what I am suggesting would actually help archers. Unfortunately it wont help non aps melee. But to be honest it is rare to see anyone level 100+ that doesn't have an APS set, even 3.0+ you are out damaging casters by alot.

How about you come up with something? I do not want to see melee Nerf'd as it would be back to 2-4 hour long instances which nobody enjoys.

Well... to be honest I do know (and means personally knowing) more 100+ people with bad gears than with good gears. Of course you see more high levels with nice gears but I personally know maybe only a handful of 5 aps chars.

Also wouldn't a short range seal nerf melee range DDs that you don't want to happen? Then again, it wouldn't probably take much longer if the seals happen rarely enough. Finding a good balance between no sealing and constant seals is close to impossible imo.

My suggestions? Either reduce the boss m. def, give them a permanent m. def debuff/curse or give a new skills to casters that is DB-like, takes 10-15 seconds to start, melee range, purges you and gives huge debuffs (doesn't break PvP that way) and ticks more often with more -% chan. Did I mention huge damage?

Not a completely viable skill suggestion but still good with a bit of a modification and testing.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't follow. How would a hard cap of 3 or 3.33 aps hurt anyone other than people who break that aps? If they don't have 4 or 5 aps, how are they hurt? And for that matter, when did permaspark become some kind of moral obligation? o.O

It wouldn't hurt but it wouldn't do enough either. If you got 3.33 aps, you will still outdps casters by far if you are a sin and can permaspark with chi skills. For BMs and archers it's a bit different cause the really OP'd damage comes from permanent sparking.