Sage fist over Demon fist

ichigo4zen
ichigo4zen Posts: 0 Arc User
edited November 2010 in Blademaster
I know that everyone is saying that demon fist bm are better, but I think that sage fist bm is better simply because of the weapon mastery, I mean you cant demon spark all of the time in which, wouldnt a sage fist bm end up doing more damage since the sage fist mastery has physical attack increased by 90% of equiptment value? Im not pointing out you demon bm's but im just saying if i was a sage bm i would just kite your demon spark and right after go back to punching you.
Post edited by ichigo4zen on

Comments

  • NSAT - Lost City
    NSAT - Lost City Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    thats where ur wrong. u can demon spark all the time

    /thread
  • ArchSaber - Sanctuary
    ArchSaber - Sanctuary Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    ichigo4zen wrote: »
    I know that everyone is saying that demon fist bm are better, but I think that sage fist bm is better simply because of the weapon mastery, I mean you cant demon spark all of the time in which, wouldnt a sage fist bm end up doing more damage since the sage fist mastery has physical attack increased by 90% of equiptment value? Im not pointing out you demon bm's but im just saying if i was a sage bm i would just kite your demon spark and right after go back to punching you.

    1. You are an idiot.

    2. You are an idiot.

    3. 15% is not much.

    4. Have you ever heard of glitching DBB?

    5. Demon DBB > Sage DBB

    6. Getting 5aps with sage requires using cyclone. Having 5aps with demon doesn't need cyclone. The demon bm will have already hit an extra 10 times by the time the sage casts cyclone.

    7. Even if both has 1.43 base, Demon spark does more damage then + cyclone.

    8. 5aps with sage is about 200m more expensive and hella weaker.

    9. Most pro melee classes are pro to kite spark. Thus I never spark on a pro dueler. Since it is a duel a successful stun/fist lock is a guaranteed win.
    AP classes are a real butt pounding...
  • ArchSaber - Sanctuary
    ArchSaber - Sanctuary Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    NSAT - Lost City wrote: »
    thats where ur wrong. u can demon spark all the time

    /thread

    Wow I wish I didn't spend 2 minutes writing that, I wish i can keep it short like you.
    AP classes are a real butt pounding...
  • ichigo4zen
    ichigo4zen Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Of you say so, but I think that a pro sage fist bm would take you down.
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Enjoy sage ^_^.

    cult change item in boutique for 10 gold
  • ArchSaber - Sanctuary
    ArchSaber - Sanctuary Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    ichigo4zen wrote: »
    Of you say so, but I think that a pro sage fist bm would take you down.

    I've taken down sage BM's before at level level 84, what makes you think I can't do it now?

    Okay, to prove it, look at the first 30 seconds of these 2 videos.

    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc2OTLFayP8
    He saged sparked and used frenzy genie skill and he hits 9-11k each.
    *He then realized demon is better so he converts*
    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-IFKJZmlfw
    He triple sparked but did not use frenzy and he hits 11-12k each.

    Proof enough for you?

    If that's not enough, how about this?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSJaE7j1N2E
    Both Bms and the sin is demon, and this nirvana run was done before the nerfed of nirvana. They can probably do it in about 2 minutes now. -.-

    Now believe us.
    AP classes are a real butt pounding...
  • ArchSaber - Sanctuary
    ArchSaber - Sanctuary Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Just saying that your only reason is that sage mastery is an extra 15%. Well, masterys are hard to find but are easily found in Bidding Hall, but that means 1 out of many people will get that.
    AP classes are a real butt pounding...
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    ichigo4zen wrote: »
    Of you say so, but I think that a pro sage fist bm would take you down.

    have a good time with that, celestial schism molds are available in the boutique.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The demon bm will have already hit an extra 10 times by the time the sage casts cyclone.
    You don't canceling out cyclone?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »
    1. You are an idiot.

    2. You are an idiot.

    3. 15% is not much.

    4. Have you ever heard of glitching DBB?
    5. Demon DBB > Sage DBB

    6. Getting 5aps with sage requires using cyclone. Having 5aps with demon doesn't need cyclone. The demon bm will have already hit an extra 10 times by the time the sage casts cyclone.

    7. Even if both has 1.43 base, Demon spark does more damage then + cyclone.

    8. 5aps with sage is about 200m more expensive and hella weaker.

    9. Most pro melee classes are pro to kite spark. Thus I never spark on a pro dueler. Since it is a duel a successful stun/fist lock is a guaranteed win.

    You channel cancel dbb but not cyclone heel? Sage would channel cancel to 5.0 and be 10 hits in if you took the 2.5 seconds it takes to spark. Plus, if they spark for DR you can kite them equally.

    The main thing is fist mastery doesn't increase your damage output by 90%, it increases your fists attack power before the multipliers. The difference in damage output between sage and demon fist masteries is something like 2.2% (theres a thread floating around that calculates it). However, an 25% increase of attack speed from demon spark is an increase of roughly 25% depending on where you fall at on interval breaks.

    Better stuns and more pvp and damage dealing oriented skills in the demon chart make us better at pk (not really the masteries). Better damage output makes us better at pve. When you can tank with no damage reduction then it really doesn't improve anything to have it and still have a cleric healing you.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    ichigo4zen wrote: »
    ...I think that sage fist bm is better simply because of the weapon mastery,

    It's 15% base weapon damage difference. Archers have done the math and it equates to about 3% increase in calculated or final damage. I'm not sure how that works out to fist mastery and demon spark, but 5aps demon BM outdps 5aps sage bm.

    Is ~3% worth giving up demon dragons, drake bash, stun, triple spark?

    Umm.... no.

    b:bye
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You don't canceling out cyclone?

    i've never seen a sage bm use cast cancles actually...odd as they get more of a benifit from that lil glitch than we demons do

    that said you lose 12-15 hits from full cast cyclone thanks to server lag 4-5 with a well timed cast cancle

    and that was for bow mastery dark...bm mastery hasa less than 2% gap
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i've never seen a sage bm use cast cancles actually...odd as they get more of a benifit from that lil glitch than we demons do

    that said you lose 12-15 hits from full cast cyclone thanks to server lag 4-5 with a well timed cast cancle

    and that was for bow mastery dark...bm mastery hasa less than 2% gap

    & I've only seen a few bms who actually cancel out DBB or heel. Just cause most are tards or don't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

    b:chuckle Sage seems better to me past +99/100 & is a bit more complex than afking on a spark macro. I'd just go demon.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    and that was for bow mastery dark...bm mastery hasa less than 2% gap

    Yes, archer bow mastery is 75% and 90% for demon and sage, respectively... 'roughly 3%' is far closer to 2.2% than 15%, nor did I state that what I said was accurate, only an approximation. *shrug*
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Yes, archer bow mastery is 75% and 90% for demon and sage, respectively... 'roughly 3%' is far closer to 2.2% than 15%, nor did I state that what I said was accurate, only an approximation. *shrug*

    ah for some reason i thought that was a 2% crit masteryb:surrender

    its worth noteing that the 2ish percent is unsparked sparked demon out DD's sparked sage even counting max cast cancles for both

    sage is only worth it for solo/duo farming 3-2/3-3 if you do not have g 15 claws
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    When I switched from Sage to Demon, I only lost 200-300 Phys Atk, rofl.
    BM PvP Guide: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1320761

    YouTube channels: youtube.com/TheDan912 and youtube.com/TheDanPWI
  • Calvin - Lost City
    Calvin - Lost City Posts: 1,105 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Both cultivation has different benefits. If you want to discuss more, find me in game.
    I like how pve server talk about pvp.b:thanks

    @Michael_Dark : That's why my +10 cv claw out DDed +12 HH100fist demonb:victory
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=933319001&dateline=1267604889[/SIGPIC]
  • ZeverEdge - Lost City
    ZeverEdge - Lost City Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    ^Sage BM^ (even if he does fail at everything else).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    PWI Haters: So...is the game dead yet?b:question

    PWI Community: Pretty much, West Arch is still the laggiest place.

    PWI Economy: Agreed, and there is still active gold tradingb:surrender

    Hooray for death of PWI!!!b:kissb:victory
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Calvin - Lost City wrote: »
    Both cultivation has different benefits. If you want to discuss more, find me in game.
    I like how pve server talk about pvp.b:thanks

    @Michael_Dark : That's why my +10 cv claw out DDed +12 HH100fist demonb:victory

    For PK, sage vs demon doesn't matter. Sage will likely have the advantage due to needing 4aps base and slightly better pdef... but that doesn't really matter either... skill + luck is far more important. You know that.

    lol when can you out DD +12 100 fists?
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide
    TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide Posts: 1,946 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Tbh I wouldn't even care IF sage would out DD demon by a bit . DDing isn't everything . Why must most new hyper-fc player generation forget that bms are still a class that's also supposed to do something called , you know...stun-locking ? I'd take demon for the stuns and other skills such as HF/bell/mag marrow/DBB/GS any day .

    /thread
    It's all about LoL,yo.
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Tbh I wouldn't even care IF sage would out DD demon by a bit . DDing isn't everything . Why must most new hyper-fc player generation forget that bms are still a class that's also supposed to do something called , you know...stun-locking ? I'd take demon for the stuns and other skills such as HF/bell/mag marrow/DBB/GS any day .

    /thread

    Cause they are jealous of sins and try to match them?

    Also stun locking doesn't kill bosses/mobs any faster in FCC. b:avoid
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide
    TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide Posts: 1,946 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Also stun locking doesn't kill bosses/mobs any faster in FCC. b:avoid

    I heard pro bms fist mobs in FCC instead of aoe'ing & HF'ing b:shocked
    It's all about LoL,yo.
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I heard pro bms fist mobs in FCC instead of aoe'ing & HF'ing b:shocked


    Nah, sword auto-attack and occasional double spark works better. b:chuckle
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    There seems to be a lot of confusion here. The topic is called Sage fist over Demon fist, so I'm inclined to think it's about Sage fist BMs attacking a stationary target versus Demon fist BMs doing the same. If it's about PvP then neither BMs would keep to only fists.

    This is why some thinks Demon is better:

    Sage Fist Mastery is 15% equipment damage. Equipment damage is your weapon damage + ring damage + shard damage etc. The gap between Demon Fist Mastery and Sage Fist Mastery is less than that of the two bow mastery because fist weapon damage is less than bow weapon damage.

    Demon DBB cancel provides a bigger fire damage increase than Sage DBB cancel. This more than makes up for the 15% less weapon damage from mastery, because Demon DBB provides 35% more weapon damage in the form of fire damage.

    Aside from the fist path, there is also the two different Heaven's Flames to consider.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage Fist Mastery is 15% equipment damage. Equipment damage is your weapon damage + ring damage + shard damage etc. The gap between Demon Fist Mastery and Sage Fist Mastery is less than that of the two bow mastery because fist weapon damage is less than bow weapon damage.

    Yes, but the difference between them permasparked? How much does that narrow the gap between nonsparked archer masteries and sparked bm masteries?

    On a different note... While the sage may be able to CH cancel, I can DBB cancel, and if you consider use of a genie, if the sage is using Relentless Courage, I can always counter that since I don't need that I can either amp or frenzy, so demon obviously still wins.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • ImReallyWhyt - Heavens Tear
    ImReallyWhyt - Heavens Tear Posts: 113 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    when i see the people with epic gear ..claws..100 fist..etc..i just shake my head..There might be a new ff generation..what about the epic cashedout generation??Game is full of a bunch of gamblers.
  • ArchSaber - Sanctuary
    ArchSaber - Sanctuary Posts: 1,440 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Demon BMs are better then sage what so ever. Unless I wanna go pure pole, then I guess I would go sage. But I don't.

    /endthread
    AP classes are a real butt pounding...
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    if we're counting genies

    relentless curage blows to much energy for not enough boost

    sage wouls pam wind sheild and frenzy with a cleave cancle>spark>dbbcancle

    demon would spam frenzy DBB>spark>GS cancle

    the difference here in dps is about 10% higher for demon in the 1st 30 seconds...past that its 30%+ due to sages higher geni consumption

    however sage can cancle cast a spark saverand give up another 2 attacks after spark for the chance to HF for no geni cost at no loss to spark time so lets assume the demon is useing CE so geni burn is about even for both

    leaves us with demon doing 9-10% more with a 3 second longer HF

    and demon can hit 5 aps with only -.05 on g 15 sage needs 2
    Gifs are hard to make work here

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