Idea to help improve the APS problem.

15791011

Comments

  • DaKillanator - Raging Tide
    DaKillanator - Raging Tide Posts: 2,965 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    or just class lock weapons.... a archer/barb has no buisiness wearing fists in the first damn place.

    this way the only classes that will be able to acheive 5 aps is fist BMs and dagger sins. everyone else will be ****ed up the ***.

    I agree that barbs don't really have business wearing claws.
    but archers should. It's a dex based wep, and archers tend to enjoy a close range option

    And saying that bms and sins should keep 5aps is completely useless. All that means is that archers and barbs are added to the list of non-5aps users, and bms and sins continue to dominate in almost every aspect of the game.
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I agree that barbs don't really have business wearing claws.
    but archers should. It's a dex based wep, and archers tend to enjoy a close range option

    And saying that bms and sins should keep 5aps is completely useless. All that means is that archers and barbs are added to the list of non-5aps users, and bms and sins continue to dominate in almost every aspect of the game.

    Archer should be ranged physical damage dealer. Not melee. I agree with Tsubakey.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    @Borsuc
    My point of making all that was not to discuss them but to show that there are so many imbalances which are there because thats how its been made. APS is also one of them. Youre talking like all aps gears falls in our laps and every BM/Archer/Barb/Sin is a 5 APS one and somehow magic classes are like not needed at all.

    All magic classes and non-aps players (cos you still do have archers/bms/barbs/etc who play without the aps gear) can still do whatever instances are available in the game but perhaps not as fast as a full 5 aps squad...thats about it.

    If something this basic doesnt get thru your head, then I dont see any reason to explain further.
    Oh you probably don't know me well, not just from this game though. I'm very vocal about issues -- if there's an issue, I argue about it.

    Now, of course in this thread, I'm going to argue about aps, since that's what the thread is about. And frankly, it is THE most game-breaking imbalance at the moment. Not saying it is the ONLY one, and it is just my opinion of course... but you can understand why I am mostly vocal about it on these kind of threads.

    I do like, though, that this thread has turned into a more constructive and civilized discussion.
    So you are saying nerf the venos heals just to make it harder just to be a veno?
    Oh yes, they're already the face-roll class PvE wise. Heals are just too fast on pets with high damage reduction. You shouldn't be able to outheal most decent DPS out there, PvE and PvP wise. b:bye So veno heals need to be a lot slower.

    And you have no idea about the "purpose" of venos, especially high level. They are mostly for their support skills: purge, amp, nova, etc... not for the freaking pets.
    Some even only require a 1 time purchase, and aren't built around the concept of "he who has the highest spending limit, wins."
    But GW2 won't come out for quite some time man >_<

    >_>
    <_<
    this way the only classes that will be able to acheive 5 aps is fist BMs and dagger sins. everyone else will be ****ed up the ***.
    And this is a good thing, how?
  • ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver
    ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,457 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    or just class lock weapons.... a archer/barb has no buisiness wearing fists in the first damn place.

    this way the only classes that will be able to acheive 5 aps is fist BMs and dagger sins. everyone else will be ****ed up the ***.

    i dont think that this will solve any "problem".
    archers/barbs will roll a bm. archers will get a bit more -int to compensate for the loss of the rank chest.

    i even think that it makes the game worse, only bms+sins.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    You need to learn some comprehension skills. By "can" I mean that THEY CAN DO IT WITHOUT A WIZARD.

    lol, you're a total moron. There is no required class for Nirvana.

    Again, it's about you being horrible and not being able to create a party or just the fact nobody wants you. So many mages, venos and clerics have farmed their own Nirvana weapons it's not even funny.

    I wonder why Expel or other such immunity skills (as in the video) = the only solution against the "aps problem"? Could it be that, gasp, the DPS is too high? b:question It's not even about bypassing charms!

    Why is it the only real solution a BM has against mages is to immune pot, AD, spam mdef charms or refine ornaments to like +10?

    5.0 is just broken in general, it needs to be nerfed badly, I have 16.7k hp standing, with 2 pieces of nirvana, and 2 pieces of 99. A 5.0 BM can literally stun lock me and drop me in under 5 seconds with 3 spark even with a charm on, and there is NOTHING that I can do to stop it, since anti stun pots don't work again occult ice.

    Darcy, you're just horrible at PK. Get over it lol.

    I agree that barbs don't really have business wearing claws.
    but archers should. It's a dex based wep, and archers tend to enjoy a close range option

    You're an idiot too. Fist/Claws are STRENGTH based weapons. Only daggers are dex based.

    b:bye
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    And frankly, it is THE most game-breaking imbalance at the moment. Not saying it is the ONLY one, and it is just my opinion of course... but you can understand why I am mostly vocal about it on these kind of threads.

    " it is THE most", and "just my opinion" -don't really go? If the game is broken in your opinion; I'd suggest finding another game to play. I'm pretty sure the devs trialed 5aps before they set the limit to 5aps, and there are plenty of us that are happy with it. I don't have a 5 aps toon, or even an -int toon. This is kind of a magic show. Everyone is looking at what 5aps is doing while some of us mages are thriving silently with people being ignorant to what we're capable of.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    lol, you're a total moron.
    Darcy, you're just horrible at PK. Get over it lol.
    You're an idiot too.

    Are you deeply unhappy, depressed, insecure, suffer low self esteem? You're not alone: http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Do-Some-People-Criticize-All-the-Time-and-Put-Others-Down?&id=1458630
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I know this is off topic, but I can't help replying.
    Oh yes, they're already the face-roll class PvE wise. Heals are just too fast on pets with high damage reduction. You shouldn't be able to outheal most decent DPS out there, PvE and PvP wise. b:bye So veno heals need to be a lot slower.

    And you have no idea about the "purpose" of venos, especially high level. They are mostly for their support skills: purge, amp, nova, etc... not for the freaking pets.

    Um, about the pet heals, that's kinda the stupidest argument, ever about venos... Veno heals aren't all that fast, unless you have a lot of channeling. at lvl 1 the cooldown for heal pet is 2.8 secs, and at lvl 10 its 1 sec. You wanna know why they reduce the cooldown? Because obviously mobs at higher lvls hit harder, duh. 1.5 sec for channel and 1.0 sec for cast time on heal pet isn't that fast, again... unless the veno has alot of channeling. also pet heals at lvl 10 heal 540 hp, plus 30% of your magic attack... if you wanna complain about that, complain about the venos magic attack and channeling. And also, my herc cannot keep aggro in bh, even with lvl 5 bash, so i dont even try to tank. Ive seen an axe bm steal aggro from it just by normal attacking. But in TT or Fcc, it only keeps aggro, until an interval toon triple sparks and steals it away.


    Venos weren't "designed" to solo anything. It came as an accident when Hercs were brought into the picture. And ofc, this being PW, nothing was fixed to rebalance it.

    Um, actually venos were introduced as a solo class. Look at the dev diary http://www.perfectworld.com/media/play?id=251&type=official It introduces venos as a hunter/hybrid mage, and also says they are one the the strongest solo classes in game. They were soloing things before the hercs came out with Magmites. They didnt solo it as soon, but it's called "wait a few lvls and try again."
    >.<
  • ElderSig - Dreamweaver
    ElderSig - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Um, actually venos were introduced as a solo class. Look at the dev diary http://www.perfectworld.com/media/play?id=251&type=official It introduces venos as a hunter/hybrid mage, and also says they are one the the strongest solo classes in game. They were soloing things before the hercs came out with Magmites. They didnt solo it as soon, but it's called "wait a few lvls and try again."

    I'm not even sure why people complained about venos soloing things. They might make more profit personally, but they also take 3-4x as long as a group of people.

    Honestly? I'd rather be the group.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I'm not even sure why people complained about venos soloing things. They might make more profit personally, but they also take 3-4x as long as a group of people.

    Honestly? I'd rather be the group.

    Agreed. I have a herc, and I actually hate soloing TTs. It takes longer than with a group, and on top of that its boring without the company. If im working alone, i prefer grinding with nix than TT w/herc. But back on topic, just soloing normal ? lvl bosses (nothing too crazy) You might as well just grab a cleric and an aps Bm/barb to solo them. They might not hit as hard, but they sure will kill it alot faster than the herc will. And also cleric heals are a lot better than pet heals.
    >.<
  • Magicsaber - Dreamweaver
    Magicsaber - Dreamweaver Posts: 727 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    " it is THE most", and "just my opinion" -don't really go? If the game is broken in your opinion; I'd suggest finding another game to play. I'm pretty sure the devs trialed 5aps before they set the limit to 5aps, and there are plenty of us that are happy with it. I don't have a 5 aps toon, or even an -int toon. This is kind of a magic show. Everyone is looking at what 5aps is doing while some of us mages are thriving silently with people being ignorant to what we're capable of.

    If developers think so, then balance of classes will be even worse.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • jemima
    jemima Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    But GW2 won't come out for quite some time man >_<

    And given that every couple months Guild Wars came out with a new expansion that had ever more powerful skills and classes, and if you wanted to compete you had to spend money to get the expansion, that may be a poor example.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    Are you deeply unhappy, depressed, insecure, suffer low self esteem?

    Umm.. No? I'm just stating facts. How does it feel to be wrong?

    b:pleased
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Yamiino - Heavens Tear
    Yamiino - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,031 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Wait.... wut?

    Where did I lose the topic b:angry we're talking of aps not venos ktybye. b:bye

    Btw *start troll* venos rock my sox, being able to solo pretty much anything (even though it takes longer), it is more profitable than doing it with squads... yes I have a herc cuz I can >:) *end troll*
    WTB> -12% channeling BELT or RING pm me with link or mail me ingame HT server, ty.
  • Lalius - Lost City
    Lalius - Lost City Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I would say 3.33/4.00 unsparked dagger aps is pretty OP for sins since they get first hit as opposed to BMs who don't.

    Here is what 3.33 unsparked looks like in pvp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTivlkFqalY

    Wow, this reminds me again of why I play a sin. No not so I can sneak people, but so I can kill those stupid sins that think they are so pro, because they can abuse the broken stealth mechanics.

    "Oh no, he survived my initial attack, I NEED TO SHADOW ESCAPE FAST OR IT COULD BE A FAIR FIGHT!!! Phew, now I can wait for all my cooldowns to recharge... Imagine I would have actually been forced to show some skill to still beat him (like every other class has to), that would have been a drag."

    Really, Headhunt + Autoattack and stealth again is all this sin does... How pro...
    /rage
  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Agreed. I have a herc, and I actually hate soloing TTs. It takes longer than with a group, and on top of that its boring without the company. If im working alone, i prefer grinding with nix than TT w/herc. But back on topic, just soloing normal ? lvl bosses (nothing too crazy) You might as well just grab a cleric and an aps Bm/barb to solo them. They might not hit as hard, but they sure will kill it alot faster than the herc will. And also cleric heals are a lot better than pet heals.

    I have both a 5 aps & a herked veno. I pref the aps because it's faster, however also much more expensive in repairs + charm + pot tanking if I don't have bp or it's a strong boss... Now how exactly is it unfair...? Or unbalanced?

    You solo slower but it's cheap; I solo faster but unless I take a cleric with me (which ain't exactly soloing anymore) it's fairly costly.

    If I do an Eden run with my veno I almost never use any pots hp or mp. Not the same if I use my barb... & Archer too squishy to solo those bosses. Stone Brain hits like a truck & stuns as well.


    THIS IS TOTALLY UNFAIR. Not even 200m or so for venos herk+ gear. While with the aps char just the pants cost me that much... & I still need to get ***** to be able to do it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I have both a 5 aps & a herked veno. I pref the aps because it's faster, however also much more expensive in repairs + charm + pot tanking if I don't have bp or it's a strong boss... Now how exactly is it unfair...? Or unbalanced?

    You solo slower but it's cheap; I solo faster but unless I take a cleric with me (which ain't exactly soloing anymore) it's fairly costly.

    If I do an Eden run with my veno I almost never use any pots hp or mp. Not the same if I use my barb... & Archer too squishy to solo those bosses. Stone Brain hits like a truck & stuns as well.


    THIS IS TOTALLY UNFAIR. Not even 200m or so for venos herk+ gear. While with the aps char just the pants cost me that much... & I still need to get ***** to be able to do it.

    Well, i never said it was unfair, you did though. But i guess i can agree its unbalanced, because it is. But then again ppl talk about "balance" like its achievable, when we know there's never complete "balance". I know aps is much more expensive than a veno and herc, but it seems ppl prefer the aps anyways, cause it's faster. Im not hurt by it though, in squads, if i don't have to worry about healing my pet, that means all DDing and debuffing for me. Now if im soloing storm brain, or any other boss that hits like a truck, I'm going to bring along mp foods for safety, because I wont always find the right time to soul tranfuse, then use a genie heal. And if he hits like a truck, then I wont be using natures grace any.
    >.<
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I have both a 5 aps & a herked veno. I pref the aps because it's faster, however also much more expensive in repairs + charm + pot tanking if I don't have bp or it's a strong boss... Now how exactly is it unfair...? Or unbalanced?

    You solo slower but it's cheap; I solo faster but unless I take a cleric with me (which ain't exactly soloing anymore) it's fairly costly.

    If I do an Eden run with my veno I almost never use any pots hp or mp. Not the same if I use my barb... & Archer too squishy to solo those bosses. Stone Brain hits like a truck & stuns as well.


    THIS IS TOTALLY UNFAIR. Not even 200m or so for venos herk+ gear. While with the aps char just the pants cost me that much... & I still need to get ***** to be able to do it.

    All of the people who say "Oh, I don't mind a veno soloing because it takes them so much time" are freaking idiots, or they don't remember what the game was like a year and a half ago.

    Venos controlled the farming parties, they usually banked and divided up splits. If you didn't know a veno with a herc personally, you would almost never get to farm. Most venos were greedy and no matter what dropped, they would only give people who helped one or two green mats, or if they were really stingy a couple of mirages just for helping.

    Having a 'normal' pre-pack farming party, runs costed tanks/clerics way too much coin. You almost always wanted or needed a veno to tank because of this. Hercs with reflect also did far more damage than the rest of the party combined. Venos rarely needed anyone to help do anything but open.

    My best friend here at the time, as well as the person who brought me here was a herc'd veno. It was still cheaper to cash shop HH70 armor than it was to farm it.

    Also, people forget the mob count was much higher in Hwilight Hemple then, nearly twice as many mobs in some areas.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • renier
    renier Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    apfmspodgnsogvc
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    " it is THE most", and "just my opinion" -don't really go? If the game is broken in your opinion; I'd suggest finding another game to play. I'm pretty sure the devs trialed 5aps before they set the limit to 5aps, and there are plenty of us that are happy with it. I don't have a 5 aps toon, or even an -int toon. This is kind of a magic show. Everyone is looking at what 5aps is doing while some of us mages are thriving silently with people being ignorant to what we're capable of.

    If I remember correctly you were a veno in game so magic class.
    Do you think every1 suppose to turn over his jacket like you?
    Will you be happy when all game will be just sins, BM and archers?

    I NEVER SEE such a unbalanced so big MMO game as is this.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Susylu - Heavens Tear
    Susylu - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,786 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Will you be happy when all game will be just sins, BM and archers?

    Don't most arcane users make aps characters to fund their main character/other alts (mainly for pvp and for fun cause they like arcane better)?

    idk... b:surrender

    And no, you don't have to be happy with the aps. You just have to learn to deal with it and figure out how to use it to your advantage because, many more than that visit the forums have it (or even don't have it) and are fine with it.

    I'm guessing but, one of the reasons that they might be okay with considering nerfing it on the CN version is because people can afford to lose interval because it can be compensated with other things (like more stat points and better gear, if I remember correctly you can get up to lvl 150 there). Just the fact that it's been around longer may contribute to it.

    It may be unfair for those that can't afford it/don't like it because it's "unbalanced" but to do anything to impair it beyond, say like changing the bosses' ie to seal and such, would be even more unfair imo.

    But this arguments been posted several times. If it hasn't convinced you, then there's no helping it.
  • Yulk - Heavens Tear
    Yulk - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,951 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Oh look, 5aps again .... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ b:tired
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Thanks for Flauschkatze for siggy b:cool

    VIT > STR > DEX > MAG... GG
    HA > LA > AR... GG

    HA + VIT = win b:bye
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Who the hell unbanned Yulk? b:lipcurl
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • Yulk - Heavens Tear
    Yulk - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,951 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Who the hell unbanned Yulk? b:lipcurl

    Who the hell are you? b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Thanks for Flauschkatze for siggy b:cool

    VIT > STR > DEX > MAG... GG
    HA > LA > AR... GG

    HA + VIT = win b:bye
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Most venos were greedy and no matter what dropped, they would only give people who helped one or two green mats, or if they were really stingy a couple of mirages just for helping.

    As a veno I could make more soloing than helping even if I got first pick. I could even make more by grinding. I don't consider it greedy to lookout for one's self. Everyone has their motives for joining the squad and they get to decide if it's worth their time / effort.
    I'm not even sure why people complained about venos soloing things. They might make more profit personally, but they also take 3-4x as long as a group of people.

    Honestly? I'd rather be the group.

    Not always. I ran into a lot of Barbs taking smoke breaks in the middle of one, or going to pick up g/f from work, etc. Then there's the archers that insist on stealing aggro and causing back to back AoE's, or the wizzies that steal aggro and die, etc.
    If I remember correctly you were a veno in game so magic class.
    Do you think every1 suppose to turn over his jacket like you?
    Will you be happy when all game will be just sins, BM and archers?

    I NEVER SEE such a unbalanced so big MMO game as is this.

    I don't understand. Did you read and understand all I wrote? I am a veno, I'm happy not having 5aps or even a melee toon. I believe I gain in PvE as fast as a 5aps and can kill some in 2-3 shots. I like 5aps. It compliments my skills.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    As a veno I could make more soloing than helping even if I got first pick. I could even make more by grinding. I don't consider it greedy to lookout for one's self. Everyone has their motives for joining the squad and they get to decide if it's worth their time / effort.

    I don't disagree. However, you can't deny there weren't greedy venos that would use people to help DD and pay them poorly for their time and efforts.

    I remember being an envious BM back in the day watching 8x venos soloing Eden for Apoc pages and making approximately 2-8 gold per hour. Back in those days, that was as much or more money than people can make in-game now with fast aps quads in Nirvana.

    People who say aps is totally unfair or whatever just weren't around back in the day when a solo veno would farm 2-2 or 3-1 for gold drops and make bank when gold was still 100-150k and Touch of Seven or Giant Beast Shell were selling for 10m+ each.

    That's my only real point. I guess I'm sort of forcing my attitude on people now that I had back then. I didn't complain about it, I just dealt with it.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Mitachi - Dreamweaver
    Mitachi - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,201 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    You do realize wizards, for example, are one of the weakest classes pre-endgame right?
    OMG REALLY!!!!!b:avoid i had no idea (sarcasm)
    PvP yes, PvE nob:bye
    I'm only "pissed" (or rather, complain about it) because people keep using that **** argument: that somehow, they deserve the DPS because they "worked for it". It is like they think they are special for that.
    Well they do deserve it lol, cause they did work for it, they are special for it cause they kick more *** than casters in PvEb:cute
  • Innamorata - Harshlands
    Innamorata - Harshlands Posts: 129 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I can't wait il Im 100 and not allowed in Nirvana squads because I didn't put an extra 30 strenght to wear 5aps
  • Yulk - Heavens Tear
    Yulk - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,951 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    OMG REALLY!!!!d i had no idea (sarcasm)
    PvP yes, PvE nob:bye

    Well they do deserve it lol, cause they did work for it, they are special for it cause they kick more *** than casters in PvE

    /facepalm

    So wizards only good for DB??? Do you even know what force of will is? Or even kiting? b:surrender

    Honestly, I play wiz much easier than on archer. I only die very few still as archer (Not used to DD builds...) , but it works out fine. As for PVP as an archer is not as hard as trying to solo undead army. Infact, wasn't hard either.

    In PVP I have almost beat the "overpowered" classes with the "underpowered class" I do not even think wizards at lvl59+ are the other way around, OP 59 skill would just kill anyone in 6 seconds. Oh wait, there is genie with absolute domain... Which hurts everyone, not just wiz... Damn things b:shutup
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Thanks for Flauschkatze for siggy b:cool

    VIT > STR > DEX > MAG... GG
    HA > LA > AR... GG

    HA + VIT = win b:bye
  • NightRage - Raging Tide
    NightRage - Raging Tide Posts: 1,582 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    /facepalm

    So wizards only good for DB??? Do you even know what force of will is? Or even kiting? b:surrender

    Honestly, I play wiz much easier than on archer. I only die very few still as archer (Not used to DD builds...) , but it works out fine. As for PVP as an archer is not as hard as trying to solo undead army. Infact, wasn't hard either.

    In PVP I have almost beat the "overpowered" classes with the "underpowered class" I do not even think wizards at lvl59+ are the other way around, OP 59 skill would just kill anyone in 6 seconds. Oh wait, there is genie with absolute domain... Which hurts everyone, not just wiz... Damn things b:shutup

    Is it just OP because you can't figure out how to level past 49?

    Hey... psst... hey Yulk... guess what?

    GENIES!! LOL

    I herd u liek genies.

    (umad)