Idea to help improve the APS problem.

The real problem is that the new bosses throw squad roles out the window as much as 5.0 does. Say Steel: you have a barb, but "holding aggro" kind of lost its meaning because Steel is running ****ing everywhere regardless of who has aggro. He is sleeping and stunning everyone. There is no channel time to some of the **** he does so you can't attempt to interrupt, there is nothing you can do that makes you even pretend you have a tanking role. Occasionally, when hes not stunning and AOE debuffing and casting his Earth DoT and Amping, he turns to you and hits you like, once (unless he had that buff on). Then he runs around everywhere like a madman again.

This is why people just prefer to rush in with 4-5 fast DDs, Triple spark, HF, and chain some ADs. The boss is just too outrageous.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

THIS

I'm sick and tired of people saying to roll a bm to farm instances. No thank you!

Yes yes, i know I'm not endgame atm, but there's not much for me to look forward to is there? What's the rush to get the end when what little endgame content there is, is for mele classes only?

Why should caster classes be forced to play their class+ 5aps class anyways? That means we have to do twice the work, because we simply enjoy the playstyle of one class more than another. It's absolutely ridiculous.


5aps really should be nerfed.
And for those that say nerfing it would be unfair to -int chars:
1) 5aps is unfair to everyone else, not nice getting a taste of your own medicine huh?
2) your 5aps gear isnt going to disappear... You can sell the gear until you're at the new -int limit, then get a different, useful, gear piece to replace the -int one.

Oh wow, Borsuc has a little brother...

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Yet again, I'll repeat myself for you. Just as PWE has no intention of removing 10m Big Notes from the Best Luck trade, they also won't nerf aps or interval. It is a huge part of their revenue. They even considered nerfing demon spark attack speed increase but recanted a couple days later apologizing for the thought and said it wouldn't be changed due to the massive amount of complaints.

With that knowledge in mind...

You just keep repeating yourself. The movie Shutter Island comes to mind.

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Aren't casters more useful in tw/pvp for killing anyway? Since you can attack/aoe people from far for large amounts/etc etc (not really into pvp so just generalizing from past tw experiences).

Nothing personal, but I'm getting annoyed by this comparison.

Guess what? EVERYONE FARMS (some merchants excluded of course)

As a general rule, only a select group TW.

So comparing being awesome at farming ---> to being awesome at TW is comparing apples to oranges. They are not a trade off.

P.S. Just because bms aren't the ones killing people in TW doesn't mean they're not damn awesome there.

*Edit* Btw, it's not that people complain that caster can't necessarily farm, it's just that even if you sank x2 the amount of money into a caster class, the -int character would still farm better.

When you touch weapon or attacks of classes, it's going to affect both aspects of the game. You need to take that into consideration. That's why everyone raises the topic of wizards in PvP every time wizards talk about nerfing 5.0. That's why you don't touch 5.0 unless you're ready to balance PvP as well.

I'll say it again, if you want casters to be better in PvE, you change the bosses themselves. Change bosses mdef, hp, whatever.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

When you touch weapon or attacks of classes, it's going to affect both aspects of the game. You need to take that into consideration. That's why everyone raises the topic of wizards in PvP every time wizards talk about nerfing 5.0. That's why you don't touch 5.0 unless you're ready to balance PvP as well.

I'll say it again, if you want casters to be better in PvE, you change the bosses themselves. Change bosses mdef, hp, whatever.

They QQ a lot maybe they are not good enough to know how to kite as a wizzy. Let alone maybe dumb enough not to have absolute domain or expel.

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No one says you can't farm if you're a caster... If you really want to farm, make a squad and go for it, it'll just be slower. If you're not willing to farm with the class you like to play because it's slower (cause you'll most likely have to go with people like yourself)... well then maybe you don't like your class afterall...?

Bingo

Tis what Ive been saying for week's .
Make an squad like we had to back in the day. Non-claw Barb (who wants to tank .good luck with the repair bill moaning though ), Wiz, axe Bm, Cleric, non-claw Archer, Veno.

^ Perfectly good squad for farming.

But no .. People who complain about fast farming want to be able to farm fast aswell (tis why they want to join fast squads rather than make slower ones themselves) and all the nerf aps is " I cant farm fast so you shouldnt be able to either ".

They could lower Aps to a max 4 and it wouldnt make a slight differance to the "prefered" squad. The only way would be to lower it that much it would break the game in the opposite direction

Btw, it's not that people complain that caster can't necessarily farm, it's just that even if you sank x2 the amount of money into a caster class, the -int character would still farm better.

But why shouldnt one class be better at farming that an another ? I never saw the Wizzies complain that Herc Veno's were the best farmers for nigh on a year.

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No one says you can't farm if you're a caster... If you really want to farm, make a squad and go for it, it'll just be slower. If you're not willing to farm with the class you like to play because it's slower (cause you'll most likely have to go with people like yourself)... well then maybe you don't like your class afterall...?

Aren't casters more useful in tw/pvp for killing anyway? Since you can attack/aoe people from far for large amounts/etc etc (not really into pvp so just generalizing from past tw experiences).

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bingo

Tis what Ive been saying for week's .
Make an squad like we had to back in the day. Non-claw Barb (who wants to tank .good luck with the repair bill moaning though ), Wiz, axe Bm, Cleric, non-claw Archer, Veno.

^ Perfectly good squad for farming.

But no .. People who complain about fast farming want to be able to farm fast aswell (tis why they want to join fast squads rather than make slower ones themselves) and all the nerf aps is " I cant farm fast so you shouldnt be able to either ".

They could lower Aps to a max 4 and it wouldnt make a slight differance to the "prefered" squad. The only way would be to lower it that much it would break the game in the opposite direction

omg how i havent thought of that, you are a genious!....
oh wait, that's what i'm doing (plus "leaching")

no, i dont want to join a 5aps squad and "stand there". i feel bad even if they are frineds/faction mates.

yes, i can form a normal squad (After a couple of hours).
i can also kill mobs for coins or dig herbs.
i'm talking about effective farming.

no, i dont want to nerf 5aps. maybe it is you that want to keep us weak?
maybe so you can sell us stuff?

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

well then maybe you don't like your class afterall...?

does an archer with claws play his class? does a sin with claws play his class? a barb with claws? hell, where is the class playing even for a bm? hf?
spark, hit, spark, hit...is that even playing?

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

You know...Lunar is one of the places where wiz/psy are very useful in due to their AOEs...'cause you're always going to AOE the mobs in Lunar unless you want it to take forever.

Also insanely useful for the first boss since you can't melee it unless you want to end up dead. Can't AOE either though.

yup, that's why i want to go

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no, i dont want to nerf 5aps. maybe it is you that want to keep us weak?
maybe so you can sell us stuff?

does an archer with claws play his class? does a sin with claws play his class? a barb with claws? hell, where is the class playing even for a bm? hf?
spark, hit, spark, hit...is that even playing?

First point - no, I've never thought casters as weak; I prefer playing my veno/cleric actually over my bm when it comes to just fun playing around/questing/etc. It's just that casters are used for one aspect of the game, and melee classes are used for another. I have both and play whichever I want depending on what I feel like doing.

Also, we wouldn't sell you stuff if you weren't willing to buy because you're not patient enough to form a squad and farm slowly with the only class you claim to love to play. You can't seriously hope that they'll change the mechanics of aps classes for a handful of people who don't feel like playing that class.

And yes, an archer/sin/barb with claws are playing their class the way they want to. The game does not restrict them in such a way, and if they decide to go that direction, then so be it. They wanted to make money, that's what they like to do, so they adapted, instead of complaining.

Tbh the only problem this whole aps stuff brought (as it's been said before) is people who think -int is everything, throw on a piece or two of interval gear with crappy fists and only melee on mobs.

lol ok, it's obvious that we have different views of what is fair, what is actually class playing (btw i do think that archers/barbs do the right thing, i want weapons available to all classes. give me p.attack bonus from the spark and i'll switch to claws in a heartbeat).

how about that btw? psy/wizzies able to be 5aps with claws?

no point arguing.

oh, and i'm not hopping that the game will change to accomodate me,
i'm hoping that the game will change so pwe will make more $$ from casters that dont want to roll a 5aps

wow... there's so much QQing going on in here. Listen... people are always gonna complain about something. First, it was the veno's with their hercs because they could solo TT. Then it was the venos with their nix because they were OP in pvp. Now it's the 5 aps (which is something that ALL melee classes can achieve). Did you read that? Maybe I should take the brackets out. I'll say it again. ALL melee classes can achieve 5.0 aps if they put the time and coin into it. I think if anyone has the right to complain about this, it's the veno's. Many of them spent a lot of money to become the best farmers. Now they're put near the bottom of the totem pole. But... you don't see many of them complaining. Sure, there's a few... but it's mostly wiz and psy that complain about it. Get over yourself for a moment please guys... quit whining about the balance of the game. There will always be more preferred classes for different instances.

Personally, the only real modification I would make is to barbs. Their aggro skills should be MUCH more powerful so they can go back to playing the way the class was designed. They can't tank if they can't keep aggro... and they can't keep aggro with axes... and they can't use a lot of their skills with fists. This means they gotta HOPE they can do more dmg than a 5.0 bm, which, of course isn't gonna happen because barbs don't have fist mastery.


Anyway.. in closing, let me point out something. It was mentioned that people aren't playing their classes the way they were meant anymore. This isn't necessarily true. Look at archers... sure, they use fists quite often... but they also definately use their bow a lot. This makes them very dangerous in pvp because they can hit a melee character for mega dmg while the melee class is running at them, switching to fists once the melee class is there.

BM's definately play their class, as there's a whole branch of skills going to fists... also, as a bm myself, I use skills from both fists and axes. It's called being versatile (which is exactly the meaning behind being a bm).

Sins... well... they can reach 5.0 with daggers, so there's no need to even mention them.

All magic users are unaffected by the fists because they dun use them, so of course they're gonna play the way their class was designed.

Barbs... I'll say again. I believe they are the only class greatly affected by 5.0 aps. They are forced to use fists if they wanna fulfill the purpose of their class (which is to keep aggro so they can tank the boss with their ultra high hp).

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lol ok, it's obvious that we have different views of what is fair, what is actually class playing (btw i do think that archers/barbs do the right thing, i want weapons available to all classes. give me p.attack bonus from the spark and i'll switch to claws in a heartbeat).

how about that btw? psy/wizzies able to be 5aps with claws?

no point arguing.

oh, and i'm not hopping that the game will change to accomodate me,
i'm hoping that the game will change so pwe will make more $$ from casters that dont want to roll a 5aps

If I read right, you said you don't want to roll an aps character because you don't like playing those classes, but you would switch to claws on your psy if you had the speed/p.atk bonus...

I don't get why, if you advocate unique class playing, that you would want aps for caster classes that separates the caster class from the melee.

Give me magic skills and ability to hit targets 25 meters away for lots of damage then sure you can start having 5.0 with claws. With that maybe you should give me a self buff to raise my atk level too or party heal.

It's kind of annoying to have to listen to complaints that a class you chose to play can't do efficient farming when you're unwilling to change to a class that can. If aps wasn't out, it would be equaliviant of complaining that a wizard can't tank TT bosses because it doesn't get enough hp boost from vit points like barbs do. If you wanted to tank in those days, you rolled a barb. If you want to farm efficiently now a days, you roll a melee character.

Also, if I'm not wrong, pw makes enough money from casters already. From what I've seen casters tend to spend more money to get better gear than melee classes to do more damage but most of all survivability.

Then again, I've never had trouble so far finding a squad for any class so I can't pretend to know how it feels. Maybe it's not fair but meh. I'm done with this topic b:laugh

Susylu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If I read right, you said you don't want to roll an aps character because you don't like playing those classes, but you would switch to claws on your psy if you had the speed/p.atk bonus...

I don't get why, if you advocate unique class playing, that you would want aps for caster classes that separates the caster class from the melee.

Give me magic skills and ability to hit targets 25 meters away for lots of damage then sure you can start having 5.0 with claws. With that maybe you should give me a self buff to raise my atk level too or party heal.

It's kind of annoying to have to listen to complaints that a class you chose to play can't do efficient farming when you're unwilling to change to a class that can. If aps wasn't out, it would be equaliviant of complaining that a wizard can't tank TT bosses because it doesn't get enough hp boost from vit points like barbs do. If you wanted to tank in those days, you rolled a barb. If you want to farm efficiently now a days, you roll a melee character.

Also, if I'm not wrong, pw makes enough money from casters already. From what I've seen casters tend to spend more money to get better gear than melee classes to do more damage but most of all survivability.

Then again, I've never had trouble so far finding a squad for any class so I can't pretend to know how it feels. Maybe it's not fair but meh. I'm done with this topic b:laugh

meh, i think that unique classes are nice and all but in the end it's all about te money; and black voodoo would trick me into believing that i still play a part of my psy. eh, maybe i should really roll a bm..it's like a compromiseb:surrender

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But why shouldnt one class be better at farming that an another ? I never saw the Wizzies complain that Herc Veno's were the best farmers for nigh on a year.

I'm guessing you weren't around back when they came out then, 'cause if you were, you would have seen all the complaints.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thanos, you need to try killing that turtle near etherblade next

need more psys and venos! (yay we are useful XD)
but it was thinking mrs zoologist xD

on topic:
I was really thinking why I dont want to reroll.
I think it's that i'm attached to my psy, rolling a bm just doesnt feels me (got one to 40).
Anyway, merchants can make quite a profit (and you can be one no matter the class!)
Thanks to my beloved faction it's not that bad anyway...
Sorry for beinga bit angsty, it's just that sometimes it's kinda bitter

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

on topic:
I was really thinking why I dont want to reroll.
I think it's that i'm attached to my psy, rolling a bm just doesnt feels me (got one to 40).
Anyway, merchants can make quite a profit (and you can be one no matter the class!)
Thanks to my beloved faction it's not that bad anyway...
Sorry for beinga bit angsty, it's just that sometimes it's kinda bitter

Then you should definitely stick with your psychic

I'm just wondering now, is this really the issue with the 5 aps fast farming, or an issue with the attitudes of the people with such gear that don't want to take other classes along?

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Anyone ever tried AOEing Mrs. Zoologist's baby pets? Do you like...get instantly one shot or something?

Nope. I've never been killed for doing that...