Wizards and Psychics

Readen - Lost City · November 2010

Hello guys. At first, I'm not any kind of pro (I haven't ever gotten to a high lvl), but I played PWI from time to time from a long time ago, so I may know a thing or two. Okay, let's focus on main idea of this topic. Oh, and don't get angry on me because of my language mistakes (I'm still learning English).

As far as I see, Wizards have some kind of hate on Psychics. Some say Psychics stole Wizzies position as best magic class. Well, it's not truth really. Wizards are still best hitting class. Psychics are more like DPS class, but they don't mean a thing when compared to 5 APS class, so it isn't so great. OK, they have one nuke skill, but it has 60 seconds cooldown, while Wiz ultis have 30 seconds and every one of Wizards ultis have better DMG and better bonuses.

OK, this wasn't suppose to be "Introduction to Psychics" topic. What I think is that Wizards shouldn't hate Psychics so much. They're both in same position - not wanted in parties because of 5 APS classes. Psychic and Wizards also form really really great team together. While we are great at 1shotting or 2shotting [I mean, 1st shot to get enemy's HP to about 60%, 2nd to kill him], they shine at Magical DPS. U can't really say which one is better, it depends on situation.

What is so great about team consisting of Wizards and his younger brother Psychic?
1st: Undine Strike. This skill is super ultra hyper great even for Wizard himself and when it helps also a Psychic...God save the target
2nd: Psy can "tank" with help of White Voodoo and Soul skills while we take the enemy down
3rd: In such team Psy can use Black Voodoo, that plus our Undine Strike is amazing together
4th: Psys are Crowd Control class. What can be better than Psy with White Voodoo AoE stunning lot of ppl and Wiz launching BIDS on them all? b:laugh

I know that some of points are surely wrong, but as I said - I am not a pro, rather noob. But, maybe You'll like some of my ideas.

Cheers b:thanks

Adroit - Lost City · November 2010

Readen - Lost City wrote: »

Hello guys. At first, I'm not any kind of pro (I haven't ever gotten to a high lvl), but I played PWI from time to time from a long time ago, so I may know a thing or two. Okay, let's focus on main idea of this topic. Oh, and don't get angry on me because of my language mistakes (I'm still learning English).

As far as I see, Wizards have some kind of hate on Psychics. Some say Psychics stole Wizzies position as best magic class. Well, it's not truth really. Wizards are still best hitting class. Psychics are more like DPS class, but they don't mean a thing when compared to 5 APS class, so it isn't so great. OK, they have one nuke skill, but it has 60 seconds cooldown, while Wiz ultis have 30 seconds and every one of Wizards ultis have better DMG and better bonuses.

OK, this wasn't suppose to be "Introduction to Psychics" topic. What I think is that Wizards shouldn't hate Psychics so much. They're both in same position - not wanted in parties because of 5 APS classes. Psychic and Wizards also form really really great team together. While we are great at 1shotting or 2shotting [I mean, 1st shot to get enemy's HP to about 60%, 2nd to kill him], they shine at Magical DPS. U can't really say which one is better, it depends on situation.

What is so great about team consisting of Wizards and his younger brother Psychic?
1st: Undine Strike. This skill is super ultra hyper great even for Wizard himself and when it helps also a Psychic...God save the target
2nd: Psy can "tank" with help of White Voodoo and Soul skills while we take the enemy down
3rd: In such team Psy can use Black Voodoo, that plus our Undine Strike is amazing together
4th: Psys are Crowd Control class. What can be better than Psy with White Voodoo AoE stunning lot of ppl and Wiz launching BIDS on them all? b:laugh

I know that some of points are surely wrong, but as I said - I am not a pro, rather noob. But, maybe You'll like some of my ideas.

Cheers b:thanks

what was the point of this?

NonameWiz - Sanctuary · November 2010

I guess his point is: Wiz and Psy should work together = more QQs

Right? Right? OP

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · November 2010

dont get me wrong i like the idea of classes working together but
i want my class more than to be psychics personal debuffer

greetz harm0wnie

Loltank - Harshlands · November 2010

lol psychics get more magic attack with identical gear and TT99 +4 weapons. Like 1k more. Add to that voodoo and Wizards, undine or no, don't really have a chance.

The only skills wizards have that hit harder are BIDS and BT, and even then those take so long to cast that a psy can cast two AoE's in that time that don't even cost chi.

Adroit - Lost City · November 2010

Loltank - Harshlands wrote: »

lol psychics get more magic attack with identical gear and TT99 +4 weapons. Like 1k more. Add to that voodoo and Wizards, undine or no, don't really have a chance.

The only skills wizards have that hit harder are BIDS and BT, and even then those take so long to cast that a psy can cast two AoE's in that time that don't even cost chi.

besides the fact that they hit harder, they have a number of very unique skills that make them useful. Aoe purify, soulburn, spammable aoe stun, stun attacker, silence attacker, immune to physical etc etc. The only role mages still have in this game is our ultis, which aren't used for much of anything nowadays.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · November 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

besides the fact that they hit harder, they have a number of very unique skills that make them useful. Aoe purify, soulburn, spammable aoe stun, stun attacker, silence attacker, immune to physical etc etc. The only role mages still have in this game is our ultis, which aren't used for much of anything nowadays.

thats exactly the point why pwi has to modify either the chi requirements or the % weapon dmg of the wiz on normal skills to even things out but i doubt they will do that maybe when new classes come out

Zenya - Harshlands · November 2010

Don't Wizards get a skill at lvl 100 that increases their magic damage by 100% if they have full mana?
I think "end game" with lvl 100 skills wizzies are better than Psy. Then again I havent seen any of the Psy lvl 100 skills in action yet....

for PvE Psy is better, PvP I dunno

Adroit - Lost City · November 2010

Zenya - Harshlands wrote: »

Don't Wizards get a skill at lvl 100 that increases their magic damage by 100% if they have full mana?
I think "end game" with lvl 100 skills wizzies are better than Psy. Then again I havent seen any of the Psy lvl 100 skills in action yet....

for PvE Psy is better, PvP I dunno

Ya, its called Manifest Virtue. Pay 40+mil for a skill that increases matk/damage by less than single spark. Oh.. and it doesnt stack w/ triple spark (or any spark for that matter). Definitely the game changer that evens the playing field with psychics. LULZ

Amour - Lost City · November 2010

Psychics are incredibly overpowered, just like Assassins. But everyone is too APS obsessed to realize it and utilize it to it's full potential.

It's true, psychics will never output the same damage ultis a wizard can, and they are natively much squishier unless you run around doing no damage in white voodoo, but in terms of sheer utility they are much much better.

PVE - They have a lot more on demand AoE skills that do not cost sparks. Glacial Shards and Sandburst blast are both very spammable and very high damage, providing 60% chance to immobilize at level 10 on Shards. They have a 1 spark AoE 6 second stun, which is also very fast cast and very good for PvE. They can make themselves immune to physical damage, can switch to 66 defense level on a whim, and do very good DPS with black voodoo and fast casting skills. They also have an AoE heal, can empower tank to receive better heals, and have a fast casting 100% on demand 80% AoE slow. Not to mention that they can use soulburn on 3-x steelation to make it kill itself really fast when it's in 5.0 status...

PvP - Psychics are much better in world pk, especially smaller scale fights. Although they lack pdef due to no Earth Barrier, unless it's a sin who pops on you (even then, faith + phys immune), you have a definite advantage. Any kind of caster class? Stun them, use your 80% channeling slow. It will make their 2 second skills take 3+ seconds to cast. Cleric spam healing himself? Soulburn him so his heals do damage to himself. These spells are relatively fast, if you have more range on them (ie Veno+EP) glacial shards them so they can't reach you. Spam soul of stunning so they stun themselves for 4+ seconds while you wail on them. Got a nix problem? Defense voodoo + soul of retaliation, DoT the nix. Pot out the bleed, make it kill itself with bleed + DoTs, it works. Trust me. Swtich to attack voodoo and destroy the veno.

Melees? Kite out anti stuns, don't let them get near you. Glacial shards + 1 spark stun. Get on ground and crystal light. Spam glacial shards. If they happen to get close to you, anti stun of some form, use physical immunity. Wail on them. APS problem? Soulburn + physical immune.

Compared to wizards they have a LOT more utility. All a wizard can do is blink + force of will and dps away. I feel a wizards survival relies entirely on their genies, which is why I love fortify and expel. (testing faith soon). Honestly though, since LC doesn't have any interesting TWs, if I didn't have a +11 nirvana sword I'd probably roll a psychic (I did actually, but I can't bring myself to level it... so much invested in my weapon).

Mages are the undisputed kings/queens of TW though, I know that much :]

SwiftShadows - Dreamweaver · November 2010

wizards just seem to have like 16 damage skills....
where like half of them are totally useless in pvp...

and then some buffs and a heal thats useless in pvp

where... psychic... dosn't really have useless skills

i mean... crown of flame and pit fall... where they just skills like... ummm we gotta add some mroe skills to that class... i know... 2 dot damage skills that do low damage and are utterly useless

Adroit - Lost City · November 2010

SwiftShadows - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wizards just seem to have like 16 damage skills....
where like half of them are totally useless in pvp...

and then some buffs and a heal thats useless in pvp

where... psychic... dosn't really have useless skills

i mean... crown of flame and pit fall... where they just skills like... ummm we gotta add some mroe skills to that class... i know... 2 dot damage skills that do low damage and are utterly useless

although I agree that psychic has more useful skills in general, pitfall does have its usefullness imo. The main reason this is useful is for a quick finisher, if somebody is almost dead but about to tick (lets say after a gush, and out or range of wotp).. you wouldnt want to use pyro being that there is a delay between channel time and when the damage hits, so a skill like pitfall or crown could be used to finish em off. It also has a small chance to immobilize (higher for demon), so that could be useful as well

I could also see crown being useful when combined with genie spark. Most psychic skills arent this limited however.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · November 2010

They are also good for some extra DPS whenever you need it, but over a longer period of time... and very rarely on cata barbs which you can't bypass anyway don't even bother (like when you assist attack them).

Adroit - Lost City · November 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

They are also good for some extra DPS whenever you need it, but over a longer period of time... and very rarely on cata barbs which you can't bypass anyway don't even bother (like when you assist attack them).

I've never seen a barb that you can't bypass with the right debuffs (i.e. in TW). It's really not all that uncommon to be hitting 20k+ with the right debuffs (and thats not even including bm dragons).

_Vivio_ - Sanctuary · November 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I've never seen a barb that you can't bypass with the right debuffs (i.e. in TW). It's really not all that uncommon to be hitting 20k+ with the right debuffs (and thats not even including bm dragons).

Agreed, I did 20kish with just undine+extreme poison+frenzy+ulti crit and that was before I got my rank8.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · November 2010

Zenya - Harshlands wrote: »

Don't Wizards get a skill at lvl 100 that increases their magic damage by 100% if they have full mana?
I think "end game" with lvl 100 skills wizzies are better than Psy. Then again I havent seen any of the Psy lvl 100 skills in action yet....

for PvE Psy is better, PvP I dunno

ok wiz gets this temporary dmg boost ( 30 s duration) but psychic get an ulti compareable to the wiz ultis + a 2nd really nice skill. 1 doubt that the 2nd lvl 100 skill for wiz is any good because if you calculate the dmg ~3k earth dmg with a 10 min cooldown doesnt seem to pay off and mana/chi drain is a non factor for most of the other classes with attack speed

BTW i really would like to see a topic about this general balance problem in the suggestion box supported by high lvl wiz from different servers. I guess now is a good moment for opening up such a topic since PWI is adding new classes to the game so a rework of old classes might be necessary anyway.

greetz harm0wnie

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver · November 2010

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...
BTW i really would like to see a topic about this general balance problem in the suggestion box supported by high lvl wiz from different servers. I guess now is a good moment for opening up such a topic since PWI is adding new classes to the game so a rework of old classes might be necessary anyway.

greetz harm0wnie

This I had found:

Vorhs - Lost City wrote: »

Here's a list of fixes that PWI need (in our opinion) before the new expansion comes out.

Class Fixes:
...
- Change useless lv79-100 skills with something actually useful, especially skills for party use, so u dont risk to unbalance pvp. (Suggestions -> Wizard: change Elemental Shell to have a 100% chance to dispel instead of 10% and increase its duration to 6 seconds, change Manifest Virtue to (MaxMana/50)% instead of (MaxMana/100)%)
...

BlastingWave - Harshlands · November 2010

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This I had found:

<<<

Goes to pray.. < please God make it happen > <please God make it happen >.... Also all psy lvl 59 skills have a sage/demon version , they should make one for essentail sutra as well

Kai_Umi - Heavens Tear · November 2010

May i ask why everyone think that wizz should hit harder than any other class? Ok that s the way it has always been but no one ever said that it ll remain that way forever...

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver · November 2010

Kai_Umi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

May i ask why everyone think that wizz should hit harder than any other class? Ok that s the way it has always been but no one ever said that it ll remain that way forever...

Because if you will remove attack skills from the Wizard, then instead cannon you will get NPC.

All we asked was to restore balance of classes.

SwiftShadows - Dreamweaver · November 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

although I agree that psychic has more useful skills in general, pitfall does have its usefullness imo. The main reason this is useful is for a quick finisher, if somebody is almost dead but about to tick (lets say after a gush, and out or range of wotp).. you wouldnt want to use pyro being that there is a delay between channel time and when the damage hits, so a skill like pitfall or crown could be used to finish em off. It also has a small chance to immobilize (higher for demon), so that could be useful as well I could also see crown being useful when combined with genie spark. Most psychic skills arent this limited however.

So whats the usefullness of

Devine Pyrogram i mean... when element dosnt matter i would use sandstorm instead... way higher damage and decreases accuracy or Glacial Snare that has a bit higher channel and cast then Sandstorm but can slow target down by 80% for 6 secs.. and has around same damage as sandstorm....

Also Pitfall and Crown of flame... next to what u said... i still dont get it why use it.... Pittfall, Crown of flame, gush have all same cast and channel time... wouldn't you use Gush instead? pitfall has 15% change to freeze... and does slowly dot damage.. while Gush has 95% change to slow enemy for 45% and does instantly decent damage too

Frostblade you yea.... i really want u to explain to me what do we use that epic buff for... its 100% for melee classes... and we have it

Emberstorm: charge takes so long that by that time your already hit to like 10% hp left or dead already...... and then it ends up taking even more hp down... and u hardly have any hp to start with next to some barb...who could actually kill with that kind of a skill...

Elemental Shell for like 4 seconds u become an ultimate magic tank?... whos gonna be saved by that... unless u carefully stair at your barbarian buddy and enemy wizard just when u see enemy wiz start channeling black ice dragon strike you pop it up on him?...

Morning dew - erm.... my enemies will have killed my 5 times over and over by the time i cast it once..

so explain to me wth do you use all of that for.... also most of this is all from theory since i don't know high lvl pvp.... but that's why i am asking u

fulgida · November 2010

In PvP, wizards have greater range than psychics, and if you have enough pdef you can tank their damage reflection with pots. Fighting a psychic up close is like fighting a melee class up close -- you should not do that if you can avoid it.

So, here is the beginner course on wiz battle vs psychics:

1. use earth barrier, and pdef ornaments
2. eat a bite of tasty crab
3. cast a freeze spell starting from max range
4. did it work? sutra, divine pyrogram, pyrogram, gush, dot (for cooldown) divine pyrogram
5. did it fail? get distance (drop and/or distance shrink, fly up, whatever) and try again

This can fail in several ways against psychics that understand their class and yours, or if you mess up in any of several ways, and we have other, situationally better ways of fighting psychics, but this works surprisingly well against most of them.

Loltank - Harshlands · November 2010

because a freeze spell counters their 28.5 meter range stun? lol

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · November 2010

Loltank - Harshlands wrote: »

because a freeze spell counters their 28.5 meter range stun? lol

No, but our 30m range seal might . . . .

volst · November 2010

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

No, but our 30m range seal might . . . .

Range only matters if you attack them while they're not looking. 1 step is already like 2m. They can easily take 2 steps while you channel and seal you just as well. The fight would've been already in your favor anyways if you were attacking first.

Amour - Lost City · November 2010

Feel like I was ignored QQ.

70% of PvP is knowing what your opponent can do, and when they're going to do it. Counter that, no matter what your class, and you will win.

Adroit - Lost City · November 2010

SwiftShadows - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So whats the usefullness of

Devine Pyrogram i mean... when element dosnt matter i would use sandstorm instead... way higher damage and decreases accuracy or Glacial Snare that has a bit higher channel and cast then Sandstorm but can slow target down by 80% for 6 secs.. and has around same damage as sandstorm....

Also Pitfall and Crown of flame... next to what u said... i still dont get it why use it.... Pittfall, Crown of flame, gush have all same cast and channel time... wouldn't you use Gush instead? pitfall has 15% change to freeze... and does slowly dot damage.. while Gush has 95% change to slow enemy for 45% and does instantly decent damage too

Frostblade you yea.... i really want u to explain to me what do we use that epic buff for... its 100% for melee classes... and we have it

Emberstorm: charge takes so long that by that time your already hit to like 10% hp left or dead already...... and then it ends up taking even more hp down... and u hardly have any hp to start with next to some barb...who could actually kill with that kind of a skill...

Elemental Shell for like 4 seconds u become an ultimate magic tank?... whos gonna be saved by that... unless u carefully stair at your barbarian buddy and enemy wizard just when u see enemy wiz start channeling black ice dragon strike you pop it up on him?...

Morning dew - erm.... my enemies will have killed my 5 times over and over by the time i cast it once..

so explain to me wth do you use all of that for.... also most of this is all from theory since i don't know high lvl pvp.... but that's why i am asking u

divine pyrogram is used in sutra combo because it has long channeling but very short cast (also good with genie spark)

you use pitfall when gush is on cooldown and you just need one hit to finish somebody off.
Crown in a genie spark combo

Sage/Demon version of frostblade gives 20 chi per cast, so its a good skill to cast on yourself for chi. From what I hear, it does increase damage more than you might expect on aps chars.. I was hearing 15% extra damage unsparked for a +10 cv claw archer (goes down to ~4% with triple spark).

Emberstorm is good for knocking a sin out of stealth, if you are quick you can rush over to where they stealthed and insta cast emberstorm on any target nearby.. good chance you could knock them out.

Ele shell is actually one of our more useful skills. Gives 15 chi per cast (30 sec cooldown), so I just spam it on cooldown for the extra chi. Fighting another mage or cleric (or probably psy) it can make u almost invincible for 4 secs (great when they are channeling a big skill).

Morning dew is nice as a secondary heal, tops you off after a fight, or with sutra you can use it during a fight. Also decent in pve (if you can get in a party) to provide backup heals.

Psychic skills are more broad imo, much better overall, but most wizard skills still have a role (just that some are not used very often).

Amour - Lost City wrote: »

Feel like I was ignored QQ.

70% of PvP is knowing what your opponent can do, and when they're going to do it. Counter that, no matter what your class, and you will win.

I thought I had quoted your response, but I guess I didn't. I meant to say that I agree. I don't know much about psychics, but I've been looking into them a bit more recently, and its just disgusting what they can do.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · November 2010

volst wrote: »

A. Range only matters if you attack them while they're not looking.

B. 1 step is already like 2m. They can easily take 2 steps while you channel and seal you just as well. The fight would've been already in your favor anyways if you were attacking first.

A. I always attack while they are not looking. I play the wiz like the original pw assassin they used to be. By the time they know its me, I usually already have them debuffed and sealed. b:chuckle And I suck at pk, lol

B. There is no way they can take even 1 step and do anything before they are sealed. The only skill pk-wise I have no complaints about is our seal - it works almost like instant. Noone has ever cancelled it, or sealed/slept/stunned or even hit me simultaneously if I was at range except archers because they have greater range. And sage version is an aoe seal (narrow 3m, but you'd be surprised especially in tw how f'ed up that can be, lol)

Now, if we only had a longer sleep and a non-two spark 5 minute to channel stun (single target or aoe, im not greedy), I'd be a happy wiz . . . .

Borsuc - Raging Tide · November 2010

Kai_Umi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

May i ask why everyone think that wizz should hit harder than any other class? Ok that s the way it has always been but no one ever said that it ll remain that way forever...

Because that's our specialty?

What you want to be better at DPH, AND DPS, AND at control skills? Really?

SwiftShadows - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So whats the usefullness of

Devine Pyrogram i mean... when element dosnt matter i would use sandstorm instead... way higher damage and decreases accuracy or Glacial Snare that has a bit higher channel and cast then Sandstorm but can slow target down by 80% for 6 secs.. and has around same damage as sandstorm....

Also Pitfall and Crown of flame... next to what u said... i still dont get it why use it.... Pittfall, Crown of flame, gush have all same cast and channel time... wouldn't you use Gush instead? pitfall has 15% change to freeze... and does slowly dot damage.. while Gush has 95% change to slow enemy for 45% and does instantly decent damage too

Frostblade you yea.... i really want u to explain to me what do we use that epic buff for... its 100% for melee classes... and we have it

Emberstorm: charge takes so long that by that time your already hit to like 10% hp left or dead already...... and then it ends up taking even more hp down... and u hardly have any hp to start with next to some barb...who could actually kill with that kind of a skill...

Elemental Shell for like 4 seconds u become an ultimate magic tank?... whos gonna be saved by that... unless u carefully stair at your barbarian buddy and enemy wizard just when u see enemy wiz start channeling black ice dragon strike you pop it up on him?...

Morning dew - erm.... my enemies will have killed my 5 times over and over by the time i cast it once..

so explain to me wth do you use all of that for.... also most of this is all from theory since i don't know high lvl pvp.... but that's why i am asking u

For Pitfall and Crown of Flame you do realize they do more damage right? Not by much but still, for cases where DPS matters, and target doesn't die in 15 sec, why would you not use them (if you had them of course)?

Elemental Shell is pretty useful, because at endgame you'll have about the same pdef as mdef fully buffed even without garnets, so you won't get hurt less by magic classes.

Morning Dew uhm... useful in some situations, obviously not much 1v1, you do realize not everything is 1v1 though right?

fulgida · November 2010

Loltank - Harshlands wrote: »

because a freeze spell counters their 28.5 meter range stun? lol

No, but you have counters for that situation (with stone barrier up, their stun should not hurt you too badly, and the extra health from your tasty crab will not exactly be bad for you, if they use that approach). Unless they have help, I think you should be able to survive the two water attacks they can launch, before you distance shrink out?

Anyways, that was a beginner technique, and was certainly not the be-all and end-all for fighting psychics. Its just something that I do not see people using despite its handiness in probing them and in giving you a starting position you can easily adapt from.

BlastingWave - Harshlands · November 2010

you see a psy with blackwoodo far away from you

distance shrink than spark to get rid of his soul of retaliation <sleep him < frenzy or EP both if you can + BT on him
if hes not dead yet than .........run run run cause hes prolly going to stun you with earth vector while your in frenzy mode also this will only work if he doesnt have domain on his genie

Wizards and Psychics

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