Sage Versus Demon (Balance Please.)

Blade_aether - Lost City
Blade_aether - Lost City Posts: 141 Arc User
edited November 2010 in Barbarian
Let's get extreme for a moment here. Why play a sage barb anymore? Honestly? With interval classes dominating aggro no matter what your weapon refines are and how fast you can spam flesh ream, why bother? I have 505 Strength on my barb, and I have +5 Lunar Axes with a Garnet gem. Full buffed my physical attack range is 8121-12011. So why is it that +3 99 daggers on sins with vit statted can pull and hold aggro from me at 2.5 APS? Now I am not saying that Demon barbs intrinsically have more aggro holding abilities, so let's compare some sage and demon skills for a moment shall we? Sage Axe n' Hammer master gives 100% weapon damage, but 1% crit is approximately equal to 10% weapon damage in long term DPS. So Demon barbs get 75% and 2% crit, so basically equal. What about the strength buff? 50% vs. 40% and 5% crit for 1 minute, so aside from the longevity, demon wins again. What about shapeshifting intensity? 120% pdef versus 80% and 2% crit, well the pdef suffers for Demons, but they get more crit for giggles. Now what about Sage and Demon roar? Sage reduces target's magic attack by 30% for 10 seconds, while the Demon's reflects 100% of physical damage for 10 seconds, wow, seems very unbalanced, especially if a 5.0 sin is hitting you. What about sunder? This skill alone makes barbs that use axes look stupid and silly, if someone is attacking you with physical damage, use demon roar, then demon sunder, and they will crit themselves killing themselves death before the have realized what has happened, Where as if you are sage, like me, when a 5.0 pops up you invoke? Run away? Paralyzing them with alacrity or frighten won't help, and the 40% additional pdef will be negligible anyways. Back to Demon sunder, use it and switch to standing form with your claws, 5.0APS at 100% crit for 6secs-how long it takes you to switch. That holds aggro. Now that only works if you are 3.33 APS or higher and you use either a chi pot or cloud eruption, but Sage barbs have no DPS combo like that, nor a defensive combo that a demon barb does not have too, and can use just as fast. Even Demon poison fang gives 50% weapon damage as opposed to Sage's 40% wep DMG. What about beastial onslaught? One of our hardest hitting skills, Sage barbs might miss, unless they have 11 B.O. which bu they way, almost doubles the time it takes to use so effectively halving our DPS, whereas the Demon version gives you a 35% chance to crit, for 6 seconds, might as well triple spark, beastial onslaught and switch to your claws for giggles at 70+% crit. What about true form you ask? How Sage is faster and gives more HP? Only 10% more mind you, and that is for speed too, yet we get a 50% weapon damage reduction, which totally undoes our 50% strength buff that we paid 25 million for anyways. Lastly, a strength barbs hardest hitting skill, Ancestral Rage. 200% of base damage, only usable in tiger form, wait, what? OUR ONLY 100% accurate, 8 second freeze, that does 200% base damage, is only usable for Sage barbs when they have a 50% weapon damage reduction? People complain about Assassins being over powered, how about we get some Sage and Demon balance first, I mean since the advent of the Assassin, blood paint alone is reason enough to go -interval Demon barb, you do better DPS than the Sage barb ever hopes to, even if you go full vit, and you heal yourself more than a Sage barb's sunder does, plus you are not using 2 sparks to do it. So demon barb gets to have more HP, more DPS, more Crit, more Aggro, and better tankability? Seriously PWI, at least let Sage barbs use Ancestral Rage in standing form, the advent of 5.0APS has made axes virtually useless, at least let us use our skills when can do a little damage. Go ahead, give Demon barbs clean sweep in true form, just make sure that Sage barbs get to use Ancestral Rage regardless of form, as it should have been long ago.

Blade_Aether
I don't have a sig because I am not a forum troll.
Post edited by Blade_aether - Lost City on
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Comments

  • Lidell - Lost City
    Lidell - Lost City Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Nooooob barb. IJS
  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Overall, Sage Barbs and their concept was killed with the direction of the game. Demon Barbs are just better, with the skills they can have.

    I've recently changed to Demon and as well as re-stat pts into Dex to become a Deicide user Barb.

    Why? Because as Demon, you can produce some very big-time damage. Crits at this point, can determine a win or loss in PvP.

    Why did I go claw? Simple, I wanted to get back into tanking and being wanted for Nirv squads and such. Yea yea, its kinda sad when you think about it but w/e.

    Anyone with 4.0+ aps and with decent gear refines and sharding, can pretty much be a tank at end-game.

    I doubt the Devs will bring balance to Sage Barbs. Before Anni Packs, Demon Barbs were a joke and a stupid choice in the eye of the public. Now they are top dominators in DD output.

    Sage Barbs back then, were look up to, if you were a Sage Barb, everyone would add you as their friendly tank. Now its anyone who can perm-spark with claws/daggers.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower

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  • Blade_aether - Lost City
    Blade_aether - Lost City Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Overall, Sage Barbs and their concept was killed with the direction of the game. Demon Barbs are just better, with the skills they can have.

    Thanks for taking your time to read my muddled points Knownase. This is exactly my point though, you were sage, and you knew that it was fun. But to keep up with DD standards you had to change cultivation, restat, regear a little, and roll a new weapon that a class cannot even use skills with aside from triple spark. I am not saying that what you did was wrong, I am not saying that what you did is bad, I am not saying that these changes should be hated, but they are what is necessary if you wish to play this game as a barbarian now. The fact that I have my Sage HP and STR buff just makes me a base buffer for the already nonexistent TWs. To be frank, I cannot even suggest a solution, I would say make it so barbs cannot equip claws or fists, but that is not fair either, without them, we just can't hold aggro and tank like our class is made for.

    Seriously now, I hope that a GM reads this. I have spent over 70 million on skills, I have most of my sage skills now. Don't take this as a QQ, I love my skills and my barb, but it is not fair that a barb's aggro skills don't hold aggro, and that blood paint on a 5.0 interval barb heals better than a cleric (Insert sad face here.) I do not want to reroll demon. I really don't. Could we at least be thrown some sort of bone?
  • Lidell - Lost City
    Lidell - Lost City Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    I'll mail you a couple Skeleton Bones from the HH runs I do today. Consider your bone thrown.

    ;3
  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Yea, the change was not fun. It was very expensive to do, about 70 mill total for the bookclip and learning each Demon skill. Then an additional 100 mill for my claw build makeover.


    zzzzzzzzzzzz the money for that basically took about 1-2 months of in-game merching, 99 key bosses and Nien/Tiger Event. Man do I wish I was a cashshopper at times.

    As of now, my claw build is ok.....13K HP in Human form at 4.0 aps. I can rightfully take back my title as a "Tank". rofl....

    This is just me though. I love playing as a Barb, that will most likely never change.

    As for end-game for Barbs, its completely sad and pointless. No one wants a Barb for Nirvana or TTs unless you have -int. I am guilty in falling into the -int scene. I know a lot of Barbs on HT actually are aiming for a claw build, but fail horrible at having -int gears to back up their atk speed.


    For most Barbs, you are just a buffer/debuffer for the -int ppl. Its lame really, but ppl want fast, smooth, runs for money making.

    Point is, Sage Barbs will hit a dead end, for the most part. b:cry
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower

    -Self-Proclaimed TW commentator of HT-
    -Certified Barbarian Master-
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  • Hazardus - Heavens Tear
    Hazardus - Heavens Tear Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    This is just me though. I love playing as a Barb, that will most likely never change.

    Right there with you. Its just the fuzziness. b:victory
    Point is, Sage Barbs will hit a dead end, for the most part. b:cry

    Soooo Sad yet sooo true. I rerolled a barb alt and will make him a demon.

    I mean whats the point goin demon after 100? I wanna experience the demon barb's might 89+! b:chuckle

    BTW, whats your opinion on a sage barb using fists? Yea he will probably never get to 5APS, and doesnt get the insane crits a demon does, but he does have a slightly better humanoid attack with sage titans.

    How well do you think he could fit in?
    When the going gets tough; Get a tank!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Nocturne mature HT guild - we invite people, not levels.
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=760842
  • X_trigger_X - Heavens Tear
    X_trigger_X - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,301 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Sage Barbs back then, were look up to, if you were a Sage Barb, everyone would add you as their friendly tank. Now its anyone who can perm-spark with claws/daggers.

    So true b:sad

    I'm a sage barb. About the only thing were any good for is being a cata barb. Most tanks these days aim to dish out an ***-tonne of damage rather than be the meat shield needed in a cata barb.

    I must say though, sage barbs ain't too bad in pvp either, or is it the poor HT pvp scene...I don't care what people say, you can't beat a 30k hp ninja arma in a group b:dirty


    And a sage barb using fists, hmmm, you could take less damage because of sage sparks, but would deal less too. Would you wanna deal less damage to withstand more? (I'm assuming sage and demon sparks add the same amount of +% attack).
    If you could get 3.33aps, you could get groups ALOT easier being a -int guy. More groups, more money, better gear -> higher aps.
  • Putica - Raging Tide
    Putica - Raging Tide Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    i know it sux but this will never change. the game is broken
  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited October 2010

    BTW, whats your opinion on a sage barb using fists? Yea he will probably never get to 5APS, and doesnt get the insane crits a demon does, but he does have a slightly better humanoid attack with sage titans.

    How well do you think he could fit in?

    Its very do able, but just sooooooooooo expensive. For 4.0 aps, you will need an -int tome and Nirvana Leggings 2nd cast along with LG cape, Deicide, TT99 LA and HA bonuses.

    I planned on being a Sage Claw user, but it was just too expensive for me. Cheaper to swap to Demon and use Demon Spark to hit 4.0+ aps.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower

    -Self-Proclaimed TW commentator of HT-
    -Certified Barbarian Master-
    -You gained +10 coolness points for viewing this signature-
    -Master of Coffee-
  • Blade_aether - Lost City
    Blade_aether - Lost City Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    And a sage barb using fists, hmmm, you could take less damage because of sage sparks, but would deal less too. Would you wanna deal less damage to withstand more? (I'm assuming sage and demon sparks add the same amount of +% attack).
    If you could get 3.33aps, you could get groups ALOT easier being a -int guy. More groups, more money, better gear -> higher aps.


    Terribad. So terribad, higher base is mostly lost, you don't get the damage increase from sage mastery, but demon skill gets to keep their 2% passive crit. As for tanky, at 4.0 you are DECENT DD, ONLY DECENT, aggro will be hard to hold, you SEVERELY cap your crit going Sage, but the point had previously been that crit could have been neglected for significantly higher base damage. Bloodpaint at 5.0 in demon has a more 'defensive effect' than 4.0 with Sage spark. They only thing that would be worthwhile is the Sage shapeshifting intensity to compensate for all the dex you statted that makes you squishy. But that is if you glitch claws/fists into tiger, which IS, I repeat IS bannable. If you want to go interval, go Demon, a barb should NOT be wearing 99 LA adorns for interval, not if you can hit 5.0 otherwise. Sage would need those adorns for 4.0APS. As for PK, I still hit hard, I have lunar axes, so I don't have zerk, and I hit a 101 Psy today for 12k non crit. I did however triple spark, tangling mire, and extreme poison, not to mention they had black voodoo on. SO basically not that hard.

    Blade_Aether
    101 Sage Barb
  • Bartack - Heavens Tear
    Bartack - Heavens Tear Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    *once upon a time*

    Used to be that barbs enjoyed one of the most balanced cultivation decisions in pwi. (on paper, at least)

    But its not the skills that have have changed to **** this up, it was the onslaught of ever more OP gears becoming available, combined with the relative lack of mob/boss challenge.

    Barb threat skills are purely based on skill level, and do not scale to keep up with the ever increasing threat generated by damage from high powered, high refined, jones blessed, low interval gears from other players. So barbs lose on aggro retention.

    Used to be that other players were pretty squishy, and needed a barb to soak damage. Now with high refines on armor combined with cit gems, vit gems and def lvl gems, anyone can soak damage with relatively high hp (and blood paint). DD chars can now hold aggro AND take the damage of most anything in game. So even if a barb could hold aggro, why would you want him to?

    The reason demon barbs are now more popular than our heavenly brethren is the the need for their special talents is now almost nil. Adding a little damage is now all we can hope to do.

    Barbs, sacrificed by pwi for pure profit. Thanks guys.
  • Blade_aether - Lost City
    Blade_aether - Lost City Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    *once upon a time*

    Barbs, sacrificed by pwi for pure profit. Thanks guys.

    Can we vote? Band together and fight for skill balance? We have no passive Mdef, maybe Sage should get a passive Mdef buff only for standing form? So we can stat higher strength? Sorta like Shapeshifting Intensity, only only for standing form. And Beastial Onslaught is TOO SLOW. It should be the same speed as level 10 with 100% accuracy, Demon keeps the speed, but gets a 35% crit bonus? I don't think that seems fair. Also, Ancestral Rage, the 100 Ultimate skill NEEDS to, and should NECESSARILY be usable in tiger form AS WELL AS STANDING FORM. Lastly, weapon mastery, no Sage barb would go interval for obvious reasons, so since we use axes as Sage, better mastery? 110% wep dmg with 1% crit instead of plain 100%? Seems fair to me considering a Demon 5.0APS dmg output. Also, since Flesh Ream is slower, make it hold definite aggro longer. I vote these as NECESSARY for cultivation balance.

    Blade_Aether,
    Not wrong this time.
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Overall, Sage Barbs and their concept was killed with the direction of the game. Demon Barbs are just better, with the skills they can have.
    < snipped >

    I doubt the Devs will bring balance to Sage Barbs. Before Anni Packs, Demon Barbs were a joke and a stupid choice in the eye of the public. Now they are top dominators in DD output.

    Sage Barbs back then, were look up to, if you were a Sage Barb, everyone would add you as their friendly tank. Now its anyone who can perm-spark with claws/daggers.

    Yup. You speak the truth Knownase. I know only one 100+ barb on HT that hasn't restatted to claws...that's because he's also got a 100+ interval BM.

    Once I hit 100 on barb I figure I'm done playing him, other than as a catshop toon. Why? I don't have money/coin or time to put into the game. But when I first started lvl100 was my goal. And yep, I'm sage...but I get told all the time "let the bm tank" or "just DD" or whatever. Only once in a squad did anyone speak a differing opinion, and lucky for me it was the cleric who said "Let the barb tank" and the BM did.

    My idea, which could be implemented quite easily, I think, is that barbs should get an "in squad" attack bonus or "in squad" aggro bonus to allow us to compete with interval toons.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Lvl10XBarb
    Lvl10XArcher
    lvl10XAssassin
  • GohRaL - Sanctuary
    GohRaL - Sanctuary Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The two cultivation are very different, but ive never heard of anyone whining for a balance in the good ol times...(yeah maybe BO is the only OP skill we get to analize)

    Now that we're not that needed to tank anymore, the situation changes b:bye


    I had pick my own cultivation (DEMON) waaaaaaaay before that anni pack came out cuz i liked the skill and versatility over the better tanking ability (which i honestly dont think we need to upgrade)



    Btw if you made this comparison on cultivation, why did you went sage on your barb?
    you seem to love demon version of level 11 skills...

    yeah demon is more crit and DPS while sage is more tank and DPH, nothing new...

    Level 100 skills are both TIGER FORM only, your point in making it for both forms just for sage made me rolling on the floor laughing








    If there is something that need to be changed, well...that of course is the AGGRO rate of flesh ream. Which is honestly laughable at endgame level even without JB and stacked -int


    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)


    >RETIRED<
  • swabian
    swabian Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Well here's a few questions then.....

    I've decided Demon already, seen some serious kick **** Barbs in Demon form so at lvl 81 do I start to stat toward a Fist Barb?

    I run with some top int. players and lose aggro all the time..... Tired of the low damage and wanna amp up a little too.

    Sounds like ppl have wasted a lot of coin on restatting and I don't wanna go there.

    How would you go about statting toward a Fist Barb?
    b:sin
  • Korsov - Heavens Tear
    Korsov - Heavens Tear Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    swabian wrote: »
    Well here's a few questions then.....

    I've decided Demon already, seen some serious kick **** Barbs in Demon form so at lvl 81 do I start to stat toward a Fist Barb?


    You should never restat to claws until at least level 99. You need to be able to wear the 99 gold arms and another piece of 99 gold armor of the same type to get enough -interval. On top of that, there's really no reason to restat until you also have the -int Lunar Glade cape and the Deicides. Two pieces of 99 gold (one of them being the arms), Energetic Robe: Lunar Glade, and Deicides is enough to get you to 3.33 aps sparked. Until that point, it's pretty pointless to restat.
  • Blade_aether - Lost City
    Blade_aether - Lost City Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The two cultivation are very different, but ive never heard of anyone whining for a balance in the good ol times...(yeah maybe BO is the only OP skill we get to analize)

    Now that we're not that needed to tank anymore, the situation changes b:bye


    I had pick my own cultivation (DEMON) waaaaaaaay before that anni pack came out cuz i liked the skill and versatility over the better tanking ability (which i honestly dont think we need to upgrade)



    Btw if you made this comparison on cultivation, why did you went sage on your barb?
    you seem to love demon version of level 11 skills...

    yeah demon is more crit and DPS while sage is more tank and DPH, nothing new...

    Level 100 skills are both TIGER FORM only, your point in making it for both forms just for sage made me rolling on the floor laughing








    If there is something that need to be changed, well...that of course is the AGGRO rate of flesh ream. Which is honestly laughable at endgame level even without JB and stacked -int



    You, are crazy. Only demon barb skill I like more is perhaps onslaught, although with my haughty 31 dex, I need all the 100% accuracy skills I can get. Mmmm, scratch that, demon poison fang is very sexy too. Secondly, Clean Sweep is standing form, not for tigers. I only ask for balance as any class should, a full interval set and nicely refined claws is even suitable for a wizard, your class doesn't really matter in fact. Honestly, for Sage skill set versus demon, I am Sage all they way, regarding axes. High APS is not my play style. Simply put though, the 100 skill should not have to suffer a 50% damage reduction for sage barbs, it is not that it is unnecessary, it is that it is plain unjustified, like the free insta-cast chi skill that Sins have, I mean, why do they have it? I want a random master li's like overpowered insta chi skill for no reason, just as much as I want Sage Ancestral Rage to be available in standing. When you say you laugh at these, you are not being progressive, just ignorant. Classes are made to be just that, classified as separate entities. Now we are graded on our degree of interval. To compensate, PWE should not be throwing new classes at us to distract us, they should be giving us the chance to STAND a chance against each other in PK. If barbs weren't designed for claws, then why do so many have them? Answer is self explanatory, it is innately better. That defies our class system you lousy barb. No go find a better forum to troll, WoW perhaps?

    Blade_Aether
    Pissing on your cat.
  • Dagnatic - Sanctuary
    Dagnatic - Sanctuary Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I made my Desision to go Demon ages ago as well.. before they gave us the agro stealing Tborns, BH, etc. i wanted to go deom to be different, because every one told me i was a fail n 26 9ths, i wanted to be different and prove em wrong, now it looks like im going to have to go sage instead, just to be different, that is, unless PWE does something between now and me getting to 89, i strive to be different, who wants to be the same as every one els any way? its just plane boring.
    b:angry
    ahh, i Remember the good old days, where you had to be perfect at tanking and being a barb to get any were, now, you can get to lvl 30 in an hour, catch up on your quests from that and then CS and BH like crazy with those funy stone things, that give you extra EXP or w/e and wa la, you lvl 89 with no clue in hell what your doing, im not likeing PWE right now, not at all
  • Bartack - Heavens Tear
    Bartack - Heavens Tear Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    You, are crazy. Only demon barb skill I like more is perhaps onslaught, although with my haughty 31 dex, I need all the 100% accuracy skills I can get. Mmmm, scratch that, demon poison fang is very sexy too. Secondly, Clean Sweep is standing form, not for tigers. I only ask for balance as any class should, a full interval set and nicely refined claws is even suitable for a wizard, your class doesn't really matter in fact. Honestly, for Sage skill set versus demon, I am Sage all they way, regarding axes. High APS is not my play style. Simply put though, the 100 skill should not have to suffer a 50% damage reduction for sage barbs, it is not that it is unnecessary, it is that it is plain unjustified, like the free insta-cast chi skill that Sins have, I mean, why do they have it? I want a random master li's like overpowered insta chi skill for no reason, just as much as I want Sage Ancestral Rage to be available in standing. When you say you laugh at these, you are not being progressive, just ignorant. Classes are made to be just that, classified as separate entities. Now we are graded on our degree of interval. To compensate, PWE should not be throwing new classes at us to distract us, they should be giving us the chance to STAND a chance against each other in PK. If barbs weren't designed for claws, then why do so many have them? Answer is self explanatory, it is innately better. That defies our class system you lousy barb. No go find a better forum to troll, WoW perhaps?

    Blade_Aether
    Pissing on your cat.

    Wow, someone is pissy...and its not me for a change b:pleased

    Take it easy on GohRaL, hes been a demon barb purist for a long long long time now and still tends to get a bit excited when these topics come up.

    There are many many many topics about the lack of balance in this game that has become ever more glaringly obvious over this past year or so. Don't hold your breath. BUT, if you must hope for a change in game play mechanics, the new expansion is your best bet. However, its more likely to attempt to replace the ailing barb tank with a newer, sleeker model. That way people will spend money on their new toons. Yay pwi.
  • KingTank - Heavens Tear
    KingTank - Heavens Tear Posts: 298 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    i find it very sad that my lvl 93 sin with +5 hook and thorns with 2.50aps does more damage then my barb with +10 GX axes
  • GohRaL - Sanctuary
    GohRaL - Sanctuary Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    You, are crazy...


    You feel bad cuz of the overwhielming age of -INT classes, but that is not an easy thing to reach...
    If some1 get to high APS means that he worked for it, he spent hours and effort in game or just CSed, but still he IS more powefull than you (and me ofc). So he's able to hold aggro better than US barbs nowadays, IT'S A FACT b:sad


    that bring us to the point i explained before, UPGRADE THE AGGRO RATE OF FLESH REAM




    and you are right saying that sage is going extinct, cuz the role of the "pure tank" is not what it used to be due to packs and stacked int...



    btw, another part of your point is that you asked to make sage barb able to use a TIGER skill in HUMAN form because in tiger form, sages suffer a weapon damage reduction of 50%.
    so now, you just complain that the hardest hitting skill we have is for tiger form

    i keep my ignorance on this matter, cuz it still makes me laugh...you know why ?


    You beg for more power to be able to hold aggro on -int classes, but still you ask to empower another skill just to see some more numbers while DDing


    FR is the aggro skill, which is old and weak for endgame and extreme DD...that is the change we need b:bye


    Balance IN-GAME >>> Balance between cultivation
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)


    >RETIRED<
  • KennyC - Lost City
    KennyC - Lost City Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Ive been wondering, when will sage barbs attacks become better than demons? I mean its been proven in the wizzy's forums that after a certain point, sages magic attack becomes better. Does anyone know, or care to calculate it out?
    +1 post
  • kreslin
    kreslin Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I'm completely confused.
    I was told many times, that sage tiger's better for tanking, now i hear that demon tigers're better holding agro.

    But sage tigers have more hp and p. deffence, so they can servive, tanking world boss, and demon tigers proberly not. With sage Fleash Ream I'ill be fine with holding agro. Easily and cheaper refine your weapon, to gain damage, then gain hp on demon version. That's what i heared.

    In the game i asked one sage tiger about holding agro, he sad he has a difficulty with holding agro, but he was told that demon tigers hav tha same problem.

    So, if i want to be a usefull tiger for party, which side should i chose?

    Or it's both of them(sage/demon) not really need for party? I'm starting thinking, if i chosed the wrong character to play... I like barberians, but if they don't usefull for party, if they don't really need as a tank on 90+, i'd better chose another class =(
  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    kreslin wrote: »
    I'm completely confused.
    I was told many times, that sage tiger's better for tanking, now i hear that demon tigers're better holding agro.

    But sage tigers have more hp and p. deffence, so they can servive, tanking world boss, and demon tigers proberly not. With sage Fleash Ream I'ill be fine with holding agro. Easily and cheaper refine your weapon, to gain damage, then gain hp on demon version. That's what i heared.

    In the game i asked one sage tiger about holding agro, he sad he has a difficulty with holding agro, but he was told that demon tigers hav tha same problem.

    So, if i want to be a usefull tiger for party, which side should i chose?

    Or it's both of them(sage/demon) not really need for party? I'm starting thinking, if i chosed the wrong character to play... I like barberians, but if they don't usefull for party, if they don't really need as a tank on 90+, i'd better chose another class =(

    -int killed the Barb's job. A Barb cannot hold aggro from a 4.0+ aps user. A Barb cannot regain aggro, no matter the amount of Flesh Ream you do. Both Sage and Demon Barbs have this problem.

    APS users are abundant these days.


    If you love being a Barb just like me......go fist/claw at 99, otherwise, you won't be that happy upon endgame.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower

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  • _Ghoul_ - Lost City
    _Ghoul_ - Lost City Posts: 973 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    nope i advice u 2 reroll a bm or sin.
    not sure if the rumor is trye but if they are u wont we able2 use fist/claw and right now
    only way 2 we usefull is fist/claw int barb.

    barb died its a FACT so go play a bm or sin tho i advice u it wont we fun looking for barb at low lv for ur bh but at least u wont we spending money 2 reset 2 dex just so u can do something u shouldent have lost in the 1 place.

    now if u still like barb yup go dex/int build and hope 2 god they dont make fist/claw bm only atherwise ur screwed.

    TRUE story The End b:bye
  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited November 2010

    now if u still like barb yup go dex/int build and hope 2 god they dont make fist/claw bm only atherwise ur screwed.

    Most claw barbs on HT have a BM alt, whether or not they are skilled with a BM is their issue.

    I have a BM alt, had one for awhile anyways, so if claws do get restricted, I have a back up to my -int gears.

    Overall, I agree with the whole re-roll class if you don't wanna be a buff slave to the -int squads as a Barb.

    The choice is ultimately theirs.
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  • MoonlitMusic - Heavens Tear
    MoonlitMusic - Heavens Tear Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    well in all honesty, even Demon -int Claw barbs wont hold aggro from a equally geared BM OR sin.... go demon if you want, you're still not a damn tank xD
    but, many roles change as the game progresses, for instance, low level BMs are nearly useless in the beginning.... they can't even HF during 29, 39, or 51. so all they are is a walking p-def machine. However, approaching the late 70's they become very valuable.
    wizards are the BEST DDs until 85. then slowly they loose more and more, until they're damage is neglect-able in light of interval. however, in response the the OP, demon is better, much better, far better. because you need to realize, your role, becomes DD end game. maximizing damage is what's important for you :3
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]b:shocked
  • Man - Raging Tide
    Man - Raging Tide Posts: 1,410 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Advantages of a Sage Barb

    Better pure Tank
    Way higher defense and hp in tiger form
    Faster Tiger move speed
    highly desirable damage buff

    You can still 5 aps with sage spark and be even a better tank, i've seen a few sage interval barbs in my day.

    Anywho sage and demon are better at different things. Hands down pulilng a cata sage is better. Almost hands down in delta sage is better. That roar you are talking about helps the mages in delta hit harder with magic. Seems like a pretty good thing.

    Demon Roar is awesome, but venos keep having to rebramble, and in tw you can have a veno bramble you, in open pvp reflect doesn't work.

    Sunder > hit with claw combo doesn't work. Anywho in pvp interval demon barbs aren't that good, seriously fought a few. Without occult ice i can simply walk a meter away a second and they can't attack me. I can point at laugh, what is this fist barb doing. To kill people i think you will need good axes and a good Armageddon.

    So in summary, i like demon barbs better but sage barbs ARE better at several important parts of the game. The extra thousands of hp would cost a demon barb thousands in refine. Don't look down your nose at movespeed either.

    I have +11 g13 nirvana claws, and a +5 t13 nirvana dagger assassin was taking my aggro tonight, us both with 5 aps so even if you are demon aggro may very well be taken. Find ways to be useful like a 120 dext genie with EP, and 50% physical defense debuff.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kreslin
    kreslin Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    But if barbs don't usefull anymore, who tanks world bosses then? And what do you mean by -int? =)
  • Dsholder - Dreamweaver
    Dsholder - Dreamweaver Posts: 626 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    kreslin wrote: »
    But if barbs don't usefull anymore, who tanks world bosses then? And what do you mean by -int? =)



    On my server interval DD and clerics duo world bosses
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