Flesh Ream Aggro

Furries - Dreamweaver · October 2010

As barb i know alot about aggro. i have 1 char of never class so i know pretty much every type.

but there are a few skills i don't understand.

first i know basic aggro is based on the amount of damage dealt
ii know skills like roar, alpha male, and pet raor take aggro and set itto a specific amount.
i know certain skills like steam strike and devour add a set amount of extra "damage based" aggro when used as if you did a bit more damage.

now here is what i don't quite get.

i know the barb skill will draw aggro on you even from a 5 APS fist bm (aqlthopugh you would lose the aggro again almost instantly.

so my question is this.

how exactly is flesh ream modifying the aggro lvl?
even a lvl 1 flesh ream will steal aggro 100% of the time despite failing at being able to hold it.

im guessing ream modifies the value of the barb's aggro, but from what i can tell it seems to be using a completly different scale than damage dealing aggro.

my assumption was that ream aggro is stacking from a single user, but from there it get complex.

I figured this becuase since ream will always steal aggro that it cant function on the same scale unless it sets its value (using the damage aggro scale) to a lvl higher than that of aggro of any opther source.
if it set it to specific value it wouldn't stack as it does.
and if ream just did a huge amount of "damage based" aggro it wouldn't take aggro away if the current target had already built up enough, which it does.

the only equation i can think of that would work is is ream set iuts aggro to the lvl of the highest aggro PLUS a large amount of normal aggro. therefore if you already have aggro you are just increasing the aggro by a set amount becuase by setting aggro to the highest lvl you didn't increase it becuase you were already at the highest

does anyone know the actual formula for aggro?

Axelire - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Furries - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i know the barb skill will draw aggro on you even from a 5 APS fist bm (aqlthopugh you would lose the aggro again almost instantly.

...

even a lvl 1 flesh ream will steal aggro 100% of the time despite failing at being able to hold it.

...

I figured this becuase since ream will always steal aggro that it cant function on the same scale unless it sets its value (using the damage aggro scale) to a lvl higher than that of aggro of any opther source.

I've had a handful of instances where demon flesh ream had no effect in drawing the target's attention back to me, not even for a split second, at least to the naked eye.

Hazardus - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Axelire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've had a handful of instances where demon flesh ream had no effect in drawing the target's attention back to me, not even for a split second, at least to the naked eye.

Same for sage fleshream.

The fleshream I think just adds a large aggro value, but only for a short time.

You are right about a lvl1 fleshream drawing aggro, but that all changes when people have a ridiculous APS rate. The sheer amount of damage dealt then manages to overcome even the high aggro generated by fleshream.

Vortella - Archosaur · October 2010

This is how Solandri - Heavens Tear explains it:

Think of the mob having two damage counters. One is for hp, one is for hate.

If you do 2k damage to a mob, 2k is added to the hp counter (visible) with your name attached (invisible). 2k is also added to the hate counter (invisible) with your name attached (invisible).

If the damage came from a skill which generates aggro (e.g. barb flesh ream), in addition to the 2k added to the hate counter from the damage, an addition fixed amount of skill hate is added. I've heard the number 60k tossed around for barb flesh ream. Dunno if it's correct, but let's run with that. So now the barb has 2k of hp damage attributed to him on the mob, and 62k (2k + 60k) of hate attributed to him on the mob.

Meanwhile, the wizard has cast his first spell for 20k damage. He gets 20k added to the hp counter in his name, and 20k added to the hate counter in his name.

Before each attack, the mob checks its hate counter. The player/pet with the highest total accumulated hate is what it will direct its next attack towards. Since the barb has 62k of hate, as long as no other player or pet exceeds that, the barb will be the target of the mob's next attack. Since the wiz only has 20k, the barb is on top of the list - the barb has aggro, even though he has only done 2k of damage vs. the wizard's 20k.

Say the wizard casts another spell before the mob attacks, and it's a doozy. Crits for 43k damage. The wiz gets 43k damage added to the hp counter in his name (63k total), and 43k added to the hate counter in his name (63k total). His hate total now exceeds the barb's, so the wizard is now the mob's primary target. The wizard has aggro.

This is how your pet keeps aggro even though it's doing less damage than you. The sum of its damage + hate from skill aggro exceeds your damage. So the pet remains on top of the hate list, and mob keeps attacking it.

(And if you're curious, the names of the damage sources on the hp damage list are used to determine exp allocation for the kill, who gets first shot at the loot, and in public quests how much contrib each person gets.)

taken from
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=854372&page=4

Hazardus - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Yep, thats about it I'll guess.....

*Bows before Sol's infinite wisdom of the inconspicuous and unperceived.* b:laugh

Baalbak - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Vortella - Archosaur wrote: »

This is how Solandri - Heavens Tear explains it:

taken from
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=854372&page=4

yeah thats pretty much it.. although i personally cannot say a certain "hate" number for flesh ream. and I too have had times where ream will not draw aggro away from a demon sparked interval damage dealer b:cry

in other words, spamming flesh ream generates a set amount of aggro threshold - which is added to your damage based aggro to equal eg. X + Y Devour and penetrate armor work to "increase threat level" by Z amount so you can calculate barb aggro as X + Y + Z, X + Y, or Y + Z

enter a damage dealer doing C amount of damge, as long as C is less than any of the above combinations, Barb has aggro. However, if C is greater than any of the above - DD has aggro.

Personally Ive been able to hold aggro for entire TT fights with just normal damage + devour (and demon sparking when i get enough chi) when im not squaded with insane dps players. this includes a pure dex level 95 demon archer on auto attack with striker: glare +3 (minimum, last i checked) - clearly doing more dps than myself as a tank build demon barb with +3 star axes.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · October 2010

im not sure if this is how it works

it would mean that if barb die at the end of boss fight, he wouldn't be able to take aggro back ever

FR and/or Roar have something to do with reseting aggro or just moving you to top of hate list (no 'hate' dmg).

i remember doing some tt boss with int bm (with serious dmg). i have healed him and DD'd boss also and unfortunately bm died in middle.
after i rezed him, it took him really long time to take aggro back from me just with his crazy dps.

i think that barb would get it much more faster with FR

anyone have similar experiences? im curious how exactly aggro works

Hazardus - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Roar does reset aggro. Fleshream does not. Tested and proven many times over by yours truly and many others.

Devour (or penetrate armour) only adds aggro if boss is attacking you when you debuff him, otherwise the reduced pdef will only make it harder for the barb to regain aggro sine the -int DDs will do more damage.

I stop spamming devour when I lose the boss. Resume once I have aggro again.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · October 2010

so, when u die in middle of fight - how do u get aggro back?

are you able to do that?

Vortella - Archosaur · October 2010

Does a single Flesh Ream always result in the agro going back to the barbarian?

If so this suggests that flesh ream might zero out the hate list (like roar does) and then adds hate from the flesh ream and hate from flesh ream's damage.

Furries - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Vortella - Archosaur wrote: »

Does a single Flesh Ream always result in the agro going back to the barbarian?

If so this suggests that flesh ream might zero out the hate list (like roar does) and then adds hate from the flesh ream and hate from flesh ream's damage.

from my experience, yes 1 ream will take aggro back, but it wont hold it for long depending on how absurdly OP the DD's are.

if ream set aggro to 0 then spamming ream wouldn't stack, thats what makes me think it sets it to the lvl if the highest person and then adds more. so if you the highest it just adds more, and if your not you become = to the highest and add more.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · October 2010

yeah i believe it works somewhat like that:

roar - move barb to top of hate list (no reset or casters would get aggro with channeling soon after)

fr - move to top of hate list + some hate from damage (multiplied somehow for stronger effect)

devour - damage multiplied? and only if boss is focused on you?

i would like to see some tests about it so i could fix my guide

OMarvelous - Sanctuary · October 2010

I'm going to go ahead and say from my experince in a variety of parties, a single FR will not always take back aggro. And that's with lag factored in and accounted for.

Furries - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yeah i believe it works somewhat like that:

roar - move barb to top of hate list (no reset or casters would get aggro with channeling soon after)

fr - move to top of hate list + some hate from damage (multiplied somehow for stronger effect)

devour - damage multiplied? and only if boss is focused on you?

i would like to see some tests about it so i could fix my guide

oh i know how devour works.
devour just adds a set amount of extra hate when u use it. just like doing more damage exactly like steam strike on bm. its basiclly as if you did a bit more damage on that attack. and like steam strike, its pretty much usless as a aggro skill, becuase well barbs arnt going to be keeping aggro with dd.

that why devour never steals aggro. well not unless u manage to get it off damage alone.
and if you the best dd as a barb in tiger form your sqaud has other issues

Furries - Dreamweaver · October 2010

OMarvelous - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm going to go ahead and say from my experince in a variety of parties, a single FR will not always take back aggro. And that's with lag factored in and accounted for.

it proably does, but at high lvls the extra amount of aggro ream adds over the highest amount is proably exceeded so fast that the monster has its hate back on the dd before it changed target.

depending on how the code is written if it could end up checking the aggro again before it gets to the line of code where it changes target.

PaYwil - Heavens Tear · October 2010

HIb:bye

Did BH 29 for guildies last night with a psy lvl 68. I sparked and then spammed FR on the boss as much as i could, the problem here is lol the psy does 1 crit of 15k on the boss at 1/4 hp and she has aggro.......b:cry us barbs are having a hard time keeping aggro from DD's. But 1 FR took back aggro.......

Regardsb:pleased
PaYwil

Baalbak - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Hazardus - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Devour (or penetrate armour) only adds aggro if boss is attacking you when you debuff him, otherwise the reduced pdef will only make it harder for the barb to regain aggro sine the -int DDs will do more damage.

to be honest, I'm not sure that statement is 100% accurate. I did a 3-1 not long ago (while it was "de-amped" - so no random aggro) with another demon barb - same level with same weapon refined the same amount + garnet shards (whereas mine only has 1 amber).. he was reaming occasionally on the boss, enough to hold aggro from the higher level BM's (non interval) and myself as well while I was on auto attack. After I decided to start using devour, maybe the second or third use of it without him reaming between them landed me with aggro.

For that reason, I assume devour increases your threat level (perhaps for a set amount of time) regardless of who the boss is focusing on. The exact amount of threat it generates I cannot say for certain though. I do know one thing for sure.. both of the BM's in squad deal more damage than I do myself, so if devour only added threat if the boss is focusing on you in particular, it would have been one of the bm's who got aggro as opposed to myself, since they would have been hitting harder after devour as well.

thats just my experience.

Vortella - Archosaur wrote: »

Does a single Flesh Ream always result in the agro going back to the barbarian?

If so this suggests that flesh ream might zero out the hate list (like roar does) and then adds hate from the flesh ream and hate from flesh ream's damage.

no it does not always take aggro back. I remember doing bh 79 with a permasparked sin (before i was even 89 myself) and no matter how many times I used flesh ream on Hooli, the boss would not turn to face me at all. aggro stayed 100% on the sin.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no it does not always take ream back. I remember doing bh 79 with a permasparked sin (before i was even 89 myself) and no matter how many times I used flesh ream on Hooli, the boss would not turn to face me at all. aggro stayed 100% on the sin.

does that happen only with interval DDs?

it is possible (for animations sake) that mobs check 'hate list' only -lets say- per 1 second;
if during one second sin add so much hate that he would steal aggro anyway, then mob dont 'bother' to change target.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver · October 2010

well yeah they're the only ones that it happens with since any other dd im with, if i do loose aggro for some reason, another ream takes it back. From my experience though..

Lets say an archer steals aggro and the boss turns to make a ranged attack at the archer. If I ream after he starts, but before he finishes his "channeling", the boss will hit the archer once, and then aggro will generally be back on me. If I ream after he finishes his channeling (which might be during the next channeling phase) the archer will generally get hit a second time. On the other hand, if I ream before the boss has a chance to channel at the archer, the archer does not get hit at all and aggro returns to me.

Its entirely possible that with high dps characters a sort of reverse of that scenario may be happening where ream may be "taking aggro" for a split second during the boss' attack interval, but since the dps far out does the hatred aspect of ream in that short amount of time (1.5 seconds?) that the boss doesn't hit the barb who reamed, and keeps attacking the damage dealer.

for all practical purposes though, ream doesn't always take aggro back on the barb in cases where insane dps is to be considered. however, I have juggled aggro with a 5.0 BM in 3-1 at Steelation, likely only due to damage reduction on those bosses.

Bartack - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Roar/Alpha Male: Sets aggro to caster only with a skill level determined amount of threat.

Devour/Penetrate Armor/Stream Strike/Untamed Wrath: Adds a skill level determined amount of threat towards the caster in addition to any damage/debuff threat generated by the skill.

Flesh Ream: Sets the casters threat level to that of the current aggro holder with additional threat determined by skill level and any threat generated from skill damage, threat generated from each tick of bleed damage, and reduction of threat decay due to bleed damage.

Skill levels add set amounts of additional threat, usually more than on could hope to simply hit for at the level learned. I used to have a shakedown of the numbers from massive testing, but that was a long time ago. It was roughly the equivalent of adding a crit-zerk worth of damage aggro to your damage, even if u crit-zerked. (wow that was a disjointed sentence)

Not all chars generate the same amount of threat either. Barbs and BMs generate the most per point of damage dealt. Archers a bit less. Sins were about the same as barbs and bms but were reduced to archer levels. Magic based damage trails a little behind archer/sin (dex based?) damage.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · October 2010

gonna add this

Bartack - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Wow dude, just got your guide, and I have to say its awesome. It almost makes me want to go back and dig up or re-test my threat numbers, ALMOST. Unfortunately I'm a very casual player here anymore and don't wanna do it all over again lol.

However, if memory serves, most threat skills added about 1~2k damage worth of threat per level, but its not exact. Untamed wrath was around 20k I believe? Level 10 penetrate and devour around 15k and lvl 10 ream a bit over 20k (was a pain to test that one).

I never never got around to pin-point my lvl 11 skills, but it was a pretty good boost compared to say, lvl 9 to lvl 10.

Also, I based skill threat points to damage threat points 1 to 1 for barbs/BMs. Its a bit different for the other classes though. I think its 1 to .9 for dex based weapons and 1 to .8 for casters.

*warning* the above info is an attempt to recant numbers from the top of my head that were tested long ago. If you wish to be exact, simply test them yourself. grab a friend and a barb with a grade 1 weapon and see what damage you have to do to steal aggro from a single barb skill use. That should give u a pretty good start.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · October 2010

thx m8

unfortunately im also too casual *cough* lazy*cough* to test it by myself

i will try to add this info, but prolly without exact numbers, since they arent confirmed

SaintToadElf - Archosaur · November 2010

When fighting a boss with powerful DD in the party, I generally spam FR and hope noone grabs aggro. At what point would using Roar be a good idea? I have usually only used that to grab aggro from a group of mobs.

Flesh Ream Aggro

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