Stop telling people to go Demon and let them choose their own path.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

sage purge is pretty much the best skill you can have in your arsenal for group pvp/TW
debuffing a 4 cat push in 1 shot when they get stopped at a binding tower followed by myriad almost insures the push is stopped cold.

the reduced cooldown from demon purge doesnt really hold a candle to it. for pve,obviously, it doesnt make much of a difference. the only places i could even possible see it coming into play is for soloing 2-2/2-3 cosmoforce (the reduced cooldown still isnt short enough, but it would help, and Belial which a demon might be able to keep up with.

sage v. demon summer sprint could really go either way. and either one can be augmented by a complimenting apoth (vacuity/soul cleanse)

you know you've frustrated the **** out of a DD squad when they start stacking debuffs and amps on you, the BM throws on HF, you purify yourself and walk away with barely a charm tick.

That.

I went sage because imho Veno is not a DD class, but a mixed/utility class... and sage extends that role, while demon enhances your own character's dmg.

I'm a scared cat veno so I absolutely love my panic buttons (transfusion and hood) which combined with holy path made me the only survivor of party wipes... I would also absolutely love a new panic self-purify button called summer sprint.
+ I love the overall enhanced chi pool: venomous, lending hand, nova, stunning blow, etc.
+ I absolutely hate when a phys mob charges my AA almost pure mag veno when a crit occurs. I got 1% crit and hate it. Hence... no demon for me:)) I love the steady trustworthy dmg/weapons/skills.

L.E. For more damage.. I'm making myself a newb sin... just to make up for all that crit hate.

Also throwing a thought: the pet is a part of you, as a class. Why would you undermine that part of you by critting more often and stealing aggro from it? He is your added shield and armor, and you throw that away for a mere small bonus in damage which 80% of the time doesn't really count, since venos aren't DD class in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, tweakz:))

Not trying to rag on you, but here's how I see it from the demon perspective:

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

I went sage because imho Veno is not a DD class, but a mixed/utility class... and sage extends that role, while demon enhances your own character's dmg.

Venos can be quite powerful DDs. Granted, we won't have the same prowess as say, a wizard, with the same gear, but we are still a force to be reconed with.

As for the debuffs, the ones that a demon gets are actually more powerful, just chaotic. I don't have the exact numbers on how often they proc, but in my experience, it feels often enough that it's worth it. If nothing else, demon nova is a heavenly. I usually use this in RB just after the BM's heaven's flame wears off (or before they use it, we try to coordinate) for near constant curse effect.

I'm a scared cat veno so I absolutely love my panic buttons (transfusion and hood) which combined with holy path made me the only survivor of party wipes... I would also absolutely love a new panic self-purify button called summer sprint.

I love panic buttons as well. I'd love to have the purify from sprint, but I've got pots and red spark to make up for it. Not quite as effective, but I haven't had too many problems without it.

Usually, I tend to need a panic button when I'm about to receive massive damage. For that, I tend to use sprint -> feral concentration -> swap gears -> fox (if incoming damage is physical). I'll toss on a domain if I need it later, but usually this will suffice. The immunity to everything is wonderful.

It is also of note that as demon, you get more speed. I easily outrun most mounts and sometimes getting away is the right choice.

Not to put down sage sprint- it's a skill I'd love to have. Both are good options.

+ I love the overall enhanced chi pool: venomous, lending hand, nova, stunning blow, etc.

While I won't deny that sage venos are the gods of chi, demon doesn't have it too bad either. Considering all of the reduced cooldowns, you can spam the higher chi gain skills more often. The spark moves do still consume sparks, but I haven't really experienced a chi drought. No, I can't cast nova as much, but with the fear debuff sending the mobs away, it's sometimes a hinderance more than a help.

+ I absolutely hate when a phys mob charges my AA almost pure mag veno when a crit occurs. I got 1% crit and hate it. Hence... no demon for me:)) I love the steady trustworthy dmg/weapons/skills.

L.E. For more damage.. I'm making myself a newb sin... just to make up for all that crit hate.

Also throwing a thought: the pet is a part of you, as a class. Why would you undermine that part of you by critting more often and stealing aggro from it? He is your added shield and armor, and you throw that away for a mere small bonus in damage which 80% of the time doesn't really count, since venos aren't DD class in the first place.

To be honest, I think that sage venos can still suffer from this as well. It comes down to base magic and weapon refines and crit rates. Yes, it is a little easier for demon venos, and it does take a little getting used to. But at this point, I choose when to pull and what to pull. I've pulled off my pets intentionally if they're getting hammered too hard and just tank the mob myself (knowing my own limits of course).

The other thing that I like about being demon is not so much pulling off my pets, but pulling the mobs off of other squad members. With the channel and cooldowns, it's easy for me to throw an ironwood on something a BM is smacking (and hope the debuff hits), stun something running at the cleric with lucky, etc.

It's also worth mentioning that barbs and other venos love tend to love the wood debuff from venomous.

As far as purge is concerned, I'd much rather have sage. While there is a shorter cooldown on the demon version, I don't know that it's worth it. The only boss that I can think of atm that buffs themself enough for it to be worth it is Ape in 2-2, 2-3. The problem here though is that the reduced cooldown doesn't keep up with his buffs. You'll still need multiple venos if you want the debuffs off most of the time.

Demon lending hand rocks. Instead of receiving one spark, the target can receive 2. In either case, only one of the caster's sparks is consumed. The only difference you see is the drop in cooldown time. It's also nice to have the chance to pop a cleric/tank back up to full chi in the case of emergency.

All in all, both paths can be excellent. The choice should really be determined by your play style and personal preferences.

Correct me if I'm wrong, tweakz:))

I'm no tweakz, but I hope this helps.

tearvalerin wrote: »

last i checked, i convince everyone to go sage...

@zoe its common knowledge sage archer cannot hold a candle with its benefits compared to demon

My archer is sage, always was, and I still kick a lot of demon archers butts.

Higher base damage, longer stun, paralzye with chance to seal, higher range (wich with hh100 xbow gives me 4m more range and if hiting first with paralyze the other archer wont even touch me before dying) against what? One skill that gives faster attack speed and spark in demon?

I rather know what I can count on instead of playing with lucky crits and attack speed only.

But(!) it all depends on your playstyle, like the veno paths.

Edyn - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Since im not a rich veno i cant afford to buy both the demon/sage skillsbooks AND spend cash for lvl 79 skills like ferral concentration/myriad rainbow. I heard that myriad rainbow (foxform one) is a good skill. But because i cant buy all at ones i would like to know if i better save first to buy skillbooks demon/sage, or if i better skill myriad rainbow first, or ferral concentration?

Concerning the lvl79 skills:
I believe Myriad Rainbow has a priority over Feral Concentration. I have read past posts of Venomancers claiming that they don't get to use Feral Concentration very often. Besides, in most situations you should be able to survive with Soul Transfusion, Bramble Hood, Genie skills and Holy Path. Feral would be essential in extreme situations and it has a 3 second channeling which perhaps will be too long. I haven't got Feral Concentration yet and although I could buy it, I'm going to buy a lvl79 skill for my cleric instead b:chuckle

Myriad Rainbow and Myriad Rainbow Fox Form do the exact same things but one is single target and the other is AoE. It's entirely up to you which one you're going to buy. My choice was Myriad Rainbow Fox Form just because it's AoE. Indeed I cannot use it in certain situations (if you get the DoT effect you'll draw aggro) but in the same way, human Myriad Rainbow won't work so nice during AoEs.

I have to say that I'm impressed by you. It's amazing at how few people actually bother with the lvl79 skills...

Concerning the Sage/Demon skills:
This depends on your path but Venomous, Ironwood or Fox Form should be quite cheap for both paths. For this you'll have to make a new thread once you have chosen a path. I can't really help you here ^^;

I'd say for you to go for the lvl79 skill for now. Just choose one and keep the rest of the coins for your Sage/Demon skills. Some people don't even see the skill or know what it does but those who do will appreciate it and whenever you get the break effects your squad will do some insane damage (I always follow the Amplify Damage -> Extreme Poison -> Myriad Rainbow and when I'm in squad with good BMs we time it with Heaven's Flame)

Friend: Wht did u choose for ur culti?
Me: Oh well I went sage The skills are more like my play style compared to the demon ones.
Friend: Lol venos r supposed to be demon.
Me: No.. it's the player's choice... I didn't HAVE to go demon.
Friend: Whatever u suck as a veno lol
Me: ...


Almost same conversation with someone else about my cleric who is also sage.

Yeah, the skills are expensive. But they're worth it once you get em, huh?

Kokin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So what can i say, i feel sorry for all those venos that decided to go demon xD

I feel sorry for your parents. b:sad

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

-Demon Bramble > Sage Bramble. No comment.

-

it actually depends...pvp/pk wise it's useless, since the skill doesn't work, but in tw the demon one is better of course (took only pvp as comparison ofc the demon version outdoes the sage one in pve too)

I personally think ppl fuss too much over demon and sage it's just some special add on that the skills give, some ppl don't even get the better skills, cause the really good ones need coin...I went sage a while back, but i also own a demon veno...i enjoy playing both..but when ppl don't know how to play the class being demon or sage won't help them, demon and sage are more like the add ons that help you refining your way of fighting at some point...There's no need to tell that a path sucks, because you have to consider what the person was/is thinking and there's no need to degrade or look down on a choice...
ppl play to have fun and relax
that's just my view...

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

Great post Lemon

lol what?

And about my *tweaks call-out*... hes smart, sharp and well documented from what I've seen, even if at the edge of trolling and flaming almost always, if not completely in that area.

I'll readily admit that tweakz knows what he's talking about and his input is valuable if you can read through the trolling and flaming. I'll even go as far to say that he's better than most venomancers I've seen. He's just a little too elitist on a few points for my taste.

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also.. alot of ppl kept saying: "Demon fox is faster than Sage fox"
Actually, Demon fox has exactly the same speed, except that it will receive a 6 seconds speed buff, instead of the permanent Sage bonus to physical defense and accuracy.
So in practice, you get an extra holy path, instead of solid extra defense and accuracy.
That's it! There is no faster or slower fox. Both the same.

Just to correct the correction, Fox Form has a cooldown of 6 sec and is instant cast (you can cast it while running). So you can repeatedly hit Fox Form as soon as it cools down, constantly sustaining the higher speed of Demon Fox Form for as long as you're willing to burn mana. It's not as convenient as a permanent speed buff, but if the situation warrants the extra speed it is there for as long as you need it. It doesn't have a restrictive cooldown/energy use like Holy Path.

Unless they fix the pdef debuff bug, extra accuracy is useless for venos. And the extra pdef, while nice, is only about a ~14% increase in final pdef and not very noticeable unless you regularly tank. So Demon Fox Form is definitely better than Sage Fox Form IMHO.

(Note: My veno is Sage.)

I was running in a 3-3 squad the other day with friends and a few others when by like the 5th boss one of the members was like "omg these are dying soooo fast how come??" At that point the cleric cheerfully pointed out...we have sage veno this time sage soul degen. To which I had to laugh.

Interestingly enough with all the posts and info that are on forums people still do not take the time to look at their play style and check out the differences between the skills...and form their own opinion on what would work best for them. This is the consistant advise that I give when I'm asked. Sage works for me...it may or may not work for you. Really does it hurt to actually do a bit of research????

I also can't remember who posted about demon venos pulling aggro off pets...ummm yeah sage venos can do same....I run full arcane armor/robes rotate vit/def ornaments for channeling ones as need be odd ball hybrid (never followed a hybrid path posted here) but I've pulled aggro off my herc, off 99 barb, off 101 barb (btw they're both great barbs I'm pulling mobs off them not bosses - usually in a multiple mob situation).

It's your veno, your play style, your choice. You make the decision....don't let someone else do it for you!!!! Think for yourself you'll be a heck of a lot happier, and if you aren't and you didn't bother to take the time to do a bit of research blame yourself for not caring instead of everyone else.

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

So... in conclusion, if Demon fox would of been really permanently faster, I would of probably went demon just for this single aspect, at least just to try it out and then maybe switch if I wouldn't of been satisfied. For me, it would of been well worth the switch cost to be a fast fox just for kicks.

Solandri wrote:

Just to correct the correction, Fox Form has a cooldown of 6 sec and is instant cast (you can cast it while running). So you can repeatedly hit Fox Form as soon as it cools down, constantly sustaining the higher speed of Demon Fox Form for as long as you're willing to burn mana. It's not as convenient as a permanent speed buff, but if the situation warrants the extra speed it is there for as long as you need it. It doesn't have a restrictive cooldown/energy use like Holy Path.

As Solandri clarified, the duration and cooldown of the affect matches, so if you have the ability to toggle back and forth, it's really worth it. To put it into perspective, I can maintain 11 m/s with only self buffs and swap equips (It's possible to get up to 11.2 m/s, but I think that's the max). It's great for running quests in RB, catching up people, or even just travel. Although I can't say that I really notice the mana burn too much. It does flip back and forth so the bar has nice big jumps every 6 seconds, but besides the initial drop by 20%, it's negligible. With the exception of heal, bramble and venomous, it's your cheapest skill mp-wise if you're below 80% mp.

However, the "permanence" of this has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's great for it you're just running, but it doesn't have much effect when it comes to actual fighting. The only time that this really helps in battle is if I switch from mage to fox to run up and bite at something. And that does seem to be a rarity. In this situation, I don't quite have the 11m/s as the swap gears aren't as easy to survive in.

---

+1 to what Solandri said about myriad/feral. Another thing to consider is how often you get hit. If you get hit a lot, feral might be better suited for you since it grants you immunity. It's less useful if you're tanking in fox, but if things get out of hand and you're tanking in mage or if you pulled from the tank and need a couple seconds in panic mode. If you just need a couple seconds for heals to catch up or for someone to pull aggro off you, being stunned may not be such a bad thing.

If you aren't getting hit hardly ever, then either of the myriads may be better; whichever suits your fancy. The only real downsides to these is that the debuffs are very random and you can get unlucky and have nothing proc in 6 straight casts. On the otherhand, you can have both armor and mental break hit when things are amp'd and under heaven's flame for pure DD bliss.

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

Woops, I never said that, Desdi did:)
Anyway, one small correction here:
Sage bramble lasts 20 minutes, twice as much as lvl10 normal bramble. 60% reflect
Demon bramble lasts 15 minutes, as an upgrade from the lvl10 normal bramble. 75% reflect
Result... Demon bramble > Sage bramble.

Also.. alot of ppl kept saying: "Demon fox is faster than Sage fox"
Actually, Demon fox has exactly the same speed, except that it will receive a 6 seconds speed buff, instead of the permanent Sage bonus to physical defense and accuracy.
So in practice, you get an extra holy path, instead of solid extra defense and accuracy.
That's it! There is no faster or slower fox. Both the same.

And I am pretty fond of character speed, especially since untamed race is build for that. So I have .2 bonus from armor, .2 bonus from boots and .2 bonus from sleeves. I abandoned my .1 robe for a hp one, but even so... with only lvl 3 Summer Sprint, I have a constant 7.4 speed which bumps up to 8.7 with Tai Chi genie skill, which btw I really abuse in solo play. And when I get an archer in team, my speed can go to 9.7 for as long as my genie has energy. In that case, I can run with the barb.
And speed can be further increased with other gear.

So... in conclusion, if Demon fox would of been really permanently faster, I would of probably went demon just for this single aspect, at least just to try it out and then maybe switch if I wouldn't of been satisfied. For me, it would of been well worth the switch cost to be a fast fox just for kicks.

haha really sorry my bad...i don't even know why there's your name... big "whoops" xD

tweakz wrote: »

Armor break for Demon's ironwood is unreliable. Sage Ironwood + Tangling Mire = 100% reliability. Sage also has Myriad and Extreme Poison. If I were a demon veno which I have nothing against: I'm not sure I'd even get the D.Ironwood.

Demon has plenty of advantages, those aren't.

I actually considered not getting Demon Ironwood, but here's why I finally decided I would. L10 Ironwood has a 30% debuff. The cleric's L10 pdef debuff is 30%, while the barb's pdef debuff is 50%. Therefore, on a boss, you are AT BEST not adding any debuff, and more likely you are reducing the debuff if you routinely cast L10 ironwood. Sage ironwood decreases by 40%, becoming better than the cleric buff (at level 10, either L11 cleric debuff is equal to sage ironwood) but still not as good as the barb's L10 Devour (L11 debuff is the same). Demon ironwood may not proc often, but when it does, it is always better than any other (class) pdef debuff on the boss at the time. And of course it still has improved damage, just as Sage ironwood does. That's why I chose it.