Tip: Undine + Frostblade = Better tanks

That's terrific that the formula is close to the % that it lists. However, this fist bm has 150 attacks per 30 seconds. How many does an axe, pole, or sword bm have? About 60? Now I do 6K per hit on ? bosses with my gush/pyro/wotp spam. You want to add undine and increase that 30% more? Oh, don't forget that I'm a demon and when I spark I'm now at 62% decreased channel and 12% crit when it's PVE. If I decide to frenzy for the hell of it (which sometimes I do for fun), I've now got 65 attack levels as well. Add HF, BV, amp, EP, or any other damage debuff on the boss and my attacks show WAY more gain than anything but a sin/fister with high aps. 100K+ crits on ? bosses happen a few times a day for me. Hope that undine + frostblade crit can save me from pulling aggro.

What I'm saying is this, undine + frostblade actually makes them a WORSE tank. My DPS increases far more than this random bm you speak of when I undine and crit, thus making it HARDER for him to tank. You need to look at both sides of an equation when doing math sunshine. b:kiss

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

LOOOOOOOOOOOL!! What's this?!? I come back from school and this is the best you have for me?

*Oh how to explain this without sounding rude...* Look, "fella", I don't know if you ever heard of "reading comprehension", but I'm trying to explain it to you: It means that when you are reading something you actualy comprehend what you are reading, something like "reading along the lines". Argh! I don't know how to make it more clear...

I'm totaly proud of you, hitting 100K on a lv 150 boss is completely awesome imo, BUT what's the bloody point in Demon Sparking and using any number of damage amping skills if you are trying to help someone else to tank?!?!?!

A fellow wizzie with brainz after reading this will think: "Great! Now I don't need to hold back that much when the tank is odd! I will still need to watch my damage because I dont wanna pull aggro, I'm a smart wizzie and I know that doing more damage will pull the boss' aggression towards me resulting on my and my squad's deaths, but at least I won't have to limit myself to use pyro every 5 seconds, I will be able to safely deal some more damage! YAY!! "

I could make a more detailed post, quoting separately every single point of your post to make fun of it but I'm too lazy and that's not the point of this thread.

I had decided last night that I would no longer post in this thread, but this was totaly worth it and I'm weak
But anyway, I'm leaving now. b:bye

lol @ lowbie. Please continue b:chuckle You really are the entertainment for tonight.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

If anyone bothered to understand, Leni is right, even though what she mentions is very insignificant. Let me break it up.

Adroit (and I agree) said that using Undine does not increase DPS of a single mage in squad, because by the time you made it go off, you could've gushed. Therefore, your DPS is X in both cases.

Let's say the tank has DPS = Y. Frostbladed, his DPS becomes Y + F. Undined and frostbladed, his DPS is Y + (F*Z) where Z is the increased damage from frostblade due to lower water resistance. Therefore, undine made him deal more DPS, to be expected.

All the while your DPS is still X, since you don't deal more DPS if you undine. Your DPS does not (generally) increase with undine (unless targets with super high resistances).

It is negligible, mind you, but some people need to pay more attention to the points.

How the hell can you make 100k crits without HF or amps (which also affects the tank so they cancel each other out).

If you do 6k with Gush, which is 12k crit, I just can't see a 100k crit... that's more than eight times the damage.

Leni is not right. Leni "tinks" that frostblade + undine increase dps by over 45%. Everyone else states that the damage is so small it is insignificant.

As for 100k crit, he mentioned basically every debuff imaginable..
triple spark, veno amp, frenzy, poison, dragons, crit etc etc, I've hit over 100k in pvp.. so I would say its possible in pve as well with the right debuffs.

i agree in the point that frostblade + undine will increase the dmg/hit output of physical squad members so you have done your maths correctly but my conclusion is somewhat different.
I buff my squad members anyway with frostblade before we start attacking a boss being fully aware that with average gear of the attackers the dmg/hit increase will still be low but why not taking this tiny amount of additional dmg. I would assume buffing frostblade+undine makes nearly same effect as having a weapon refined from 0 to +1. There are many other skilleffects from squadmembers that can be boosted by using undine and the impact of undine on them is quite higher so i also agree that frostblade is not the super dmg buff it should be. Consider

Undine + Heavens Flame
Undine + Fire Arrow from archer
Uninde + Frost/Blazing Scarab from Veno
Undine + Psychics attack skills
Undine + ...(im sure i forgot something here)

Remember to max out the effect of the frostblade + undine combo you have to have a squad full of phys attackers but i guess 1 psy in squad profits far more from undine than the bms / sins /barbs with frostblade buff. Another important point is that by spaming undine constantly you leave out 1 normal attack at least for every undine so you have to decrease the missing dmg from the additional dmg gained by the 12s boost if you want to get the overall effect.

greetz harm0wnie

Oh "missie", let me try to clarify what I'm talking about so that you have some idea how to play your wiz and squads will actually invite you to an instance in the future as it only becomes harder and harder.

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'm totaly proud of you, hitting 100K on a lv 150 boss is completely awesome imo, BUT what's the bloody point in Demon Sparking and using any number of damage amping skills if you are trying to help someone else to tank?!?!?!

I'm assuming by this statement that you flame all your cleric, bm, veno, archer, wiz squad members every time that they use their debuffs. "Why the **** are you debuffing the boss, the bm is trying to tank and you're making it harder!!!b:angry"

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

A fellow wizzie with brainz after reading this will think: "Great! Now I don't need to hold back that much when the tank is odd! I will still need to watch my damage because I dont wanna pull aggro, I'm a smart wizzie and I know that doing more damage will pull the boss' aggression towards me resulting on my and my squad's deaths, but at least I won't have to limit myself to use pyro every 5 seconds, I will be able to safely deal some more damage! YAY!! "

zomgwtfimsofailidontknowwhattodo

A fellow wizzie after reading that statement just facerolled his/her keyboard. What they really thought was, "Why the hell is this person telling me to waste 600mp when i could just wait for 3 seconds and have the same effect."

Yes we have the largest mana pools, but I don't find constantly wasting mp food throughout a run because I spam a skill I don't have to to be something that suits my fancy.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

And I know 100k is possible but I thought he was talking about aggro, which means amps and stuff shouldn't be taken into account (everyone gets increased damage not just him).

YAY! Another troll who has no idea what he's talking about! Of course "amps and stuff" should be taken into account. I have NEVER been on a run where somebody didn't debuff the boss in some way. As I stated earlier, aside from sins/fisters, wizards get the greatest increase from these debuffs as a single crit when debuffed can equal 4-5 seconds of attacks from any other class. Unless you're telling your squad to never debuff a boss before the run starts, these absolutely matter and should be accounted for.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Adroit (and I agree) said that using Undine does not increase DPS of a single mage in squad, because by the time you made it go off, you could've gushed. Therefore, your DPS is X in both cases.

Let's say the tank has DPS = Y. Frostbladed, his DPS becomes Y + F. Undined and frostbladed, his DPS is Y + (F*Z) where Z is the increased damage from frostblade due to lower water resistance. Therefore, undine made him deal more DPS, to be expected.

All the while your DPS is still X, since you don't deal more DPS if you undine. Your DPS does not (generally) increase with undine (unless targets with super high resistances).

It is negligible, mind you, but some people need to pay more attention to the points.

While I tend to agree with Adroit in most cases, I have to disagree here. A single crit when debuffed actually makes that X become slightly higher because of the extra 60% decrease in resistance on top of the crit. In my case, 1-2K per undine cycle if I crit 1 time. Over the course of time it'll never add up to a large number, but if you're going to be a stickler for adhering to the "points", at least not make yourself look like a tool when doing so.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Suppose tank hits 5k per hit and you hit 50k with a single hit. Now we assume that you don't take aggro now, but then you bring the following argument:

HF'ed boss, you hit 100k. You take aggro? Think again. Tank will hit 10k, making it virtually the same as far as aggro is concerned.

Um... are you serious? Adding 5K damage vs 50K damage is not even remotely the same. The amount of aggression a 100K hit pulls is absurdly higher than that of a 10K hit. Why do you think that a wizard doesn't pull aggro immediately from a boss, but after DD'ing for a period of time where his crits eventually outshadow those of the tank?

Blosque - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um... are you serious? Adding 5K damage vs 50K damage is not even remotely the same. The amount of aggression a 100K hit pulls is absurdly higher than that of a 10K hit. Why do you think that a wizard doesn't pull aggro immediately from a boss, but after DD'ing for a period of time where his crits eventually outshadow those of the tank?

I was thinking along the lines of a 5aps character and our spells needing around 2 seconds to land a hit. It was a simplistic example. (channel and cast)

You'll notice 5k * 5 * 2 = 50k that's where I put the numbers from.

Regardless the point is that the tank will hit amped as well so amps don't "help us" steal aggro unless the tank is using aggro skills instead of damage to keep aggro.

But there is no DPS boost with undine for normal hits because you waste time casting it when you could've casted an extra Gush for example.

If your barb needs frostblade and undine on boss/mobs to hold agro, change your barb and save some mana/hp cause it sounds like you will die

Frostblade is the worst "skill" in this game and doesnt even deserve a topic

im wondering what frostblade will do to that new class which seems to be a Arcane bm.

If that new class has magic based skills, together with melee attacks, frostblade might actually mean something.



On topic, we tested frostblade on a bm lvl 100 using sword on abaddon immune to phys damage boss and he was only dealing like 100 dmg to it. so frostblade dmg is useless atm. pvp wise should be like 25dmg added to melee classes or something like that

prof wrote: »

though i agree the damage is so low it's negligible, it's still noticeable dps-wise. especially against other heavies.

the game seems to read a combination of magic and physical damage incorrectly or incredibly higher because it's abusing more than one defense. you might notice this with:

blade tempest

ice dragon


400% of weapon+12,400 dmg
500% of weapon+13,955 dmg


and if you've used a mage past 59, you'll notice that blade does significantly more. even on heavy classes.

BT counts your magic attack twice, which is why you will often see BT damage as higher, although BIDS always does more against heavies in my experience.

I wonder if the new Seeker class will loooove frostblade? XD

As for debuffing a boss for frostblade so the tank will hold better .... if they're already having trouble holding, there's a better chance that you'll steal with undine.

I mean, unless you don't attack.

*edit* except for physical immune bosses you're not going to touch anyway or something

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

was that level 1 frostblade? What was the BM's weapon range?

no, it was lvl 10 frostblade and bm was using a good sword, at least it should be tt90 refined a bit, im sure.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've never really seen well geared sword BMs <_<
I bet he does **** damage without the buff as well.

I can run through a real example of sage frostblade. My claws are +10 with 2 garnet gems and have an average 1203 weapon damage. Sage frost adds like 40% of that as water damage which is 481 water per attack.

I have min str and no mastery so unsparked my average attack is only 3026. This makes frostblade increase my damage by 15.9%

Now my own fire buff is 50% and adds 602 fire damage so if I factor that in to my base damage then its only 13.3% more with frost.

Now if I am DDing with demon spark I get 500% weapon attack from the spark which adds 7665 attack. In this situation I get:

3026 (base) + 7665 (spark) + 602 (fire) + 481 (frost) = 11774
So frost increases my sparked damage by 4.3%

Thats all from a 5.0 archer perspective. Running through a similar calculation for my unsparked nirv bow shows that 40% frost adds 6.85% more damage. For me thats like putting in 3 and a half garnet gems

Interesting example, I'm surprised it increases damage as much as it does. Is it safe to assume a sin or fist bm would likely not benefit as much as an interval barb/archer because of masteries and stat points (and even less effective on non-interval chars that spam skills)? Is frostblade damage doubled on a zerk/crit? (I'm assuming yes, just figured I'd ask :P)

Ok, frost blade has 59 posts? ugh