Tip: Undine + Frostblade = Better tanks

Leni - Raging Tide · October 2010

I was playing with my new toys (79 skills

) and i had an idea: if Undine cuts water, earth and fire defenses, then it makes combo with Frostblade!

Skill definitions:

Frostblade: Adds Water damage to weapon equal to 30% of your base magic attack (at lv 10)
Undine: Reduces Water, Fire and Earth resistance by 60%

So, by definition, it should work.

Pyro was the perfect subject for my experiment. I asked a fist BM to tell me if she noticed her damage going up, then i used Frostblade on her and, as expected, her damage went up.

Then I told her to watch her damage again and used Undine on the boss and she said she noticed a change.

This has it's uses, such as buffing the entire squad and spamming Undine every 12 seconds to see the boss drop in no time, OR only buff the designed tank and spam Undine, so only the tank's damage increases making it easyer for them to hold aggro from those aggro-happy fishes out there.

I've tryed it some times with low lv barbs or when a BM is tanking and it's worked wonders. Also, if you explain this to them, the squad will love u and you'll be actualy wanted in a squad.

Evanera - Heavens Tear · October 2010

......what?

DirtyDiana - Sanctuary · October 2010

Urdine debuffs the boss, not buff the player

prof · October 2010

the damage increases is negligible

frostblade adds damage relevant to the magic attack of the person it's currently on, which, if you haven't used a melee char(i assume: no) is very, very low(i think with 1 ses and matk buff I got up to 132?)

the skill itself adds ~100 damage per hit, which is ok in the long run, because fist dps in insane and mixing magic+physical penetrates armour severely. unless your friend is wearing magic atk rings, and items that increases it, and maybe has some int statted.. yeah, bad idea. save your mp.

Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Yes, I don't really think it would be very efficient to just spam Undine for the sake of the melee(s) who has FB. I'd forget about this "combo"

violetvalor · October 2010

prof wrote: »

the damage increases is negligible

frostblade adds damage relevant to the magic attack of the person it's currently on, which, if you haven't used a melee char(i assume: no) is very, very low(i think with 1 ses and matk buff I got up to 132?)

the skill itself adds ~100 damage per hit, which is ok in the long run, because fist dps in insane and mixing magic+physical penetrates armour severely. unless your friend is wearing magic atk rings, and items that increases it, and maybe has some int statted.. yeah, bad idea. save your mp.

According to ecatomb, frostblade's effect is:

Breathe an icy breath onto a squad member's weapon allowing
giving their normal attacks extra Water damage equal to
12% of your base magic attack. Lasts 15 minutes.

Well, at level 1 anyway. 30% at level 10, 40% for sage, and 50% for demon. From the description, I would guess the amount added is based on the casting wizard's base magic attack.

Plus why not use it? You get chi from using it and you boost the damage output of your squad. =D

prof · October 2010

like other seemingly-awesome-skills, this skills description is inaccurate. tested on numerous occasions with different leveled mages, with different weapons, fury, etc. same damage

even the levels 1-11 don't change the damage much because melee classes have no matk

if it did work, mages have like base 1,5k?(don't quote me, haven't looked in awhile) matk at 101, so anyone they use it on would gain 750 damage per hit. i only see a ~100 damage increases, and that's with ses on(magic ring). even after pk reduction(.25% dmg modifier), 750 shouldn't turn into such a small number

b:bye

Keliska - Raging Tide · October 2010

Yes, your damage would increase by 90% if used on a boss that isn't resistant to water damage. If you lucky to find a mob weak to water then it would deal 120% to them. The reason why wizzies have big numbers on there screen.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · October 2010

It's a good combo on physical immune bosses that you don't want to take aggro from... i.e Haunted Headless in abaddon.

Leni - Raging Tide · October 2010

OK, I think there are some misconceptions here and I wanna make them clear.

1. Frostblade is not dependant on the recipient's magic attack, and it adds to the recipient's weapon modifier. Note: The description clearly says that it's dependant on your base magic attack but that may be wrong, read next two posts for more info.

2. Read the title, it's a tip for helping a weak barb or another class w/o aggro skills to hold aggro better. Just giving Frostblade to the designed tank may not be enough, but if you crush the boss' elemental resistances, and only him gets a benefit from it, it improves their chances.

3. About mana costs. Well, 600 mana every 12 seconds at a 200 MP/sec rate (channel = 1 sec, cast = 0.5 secs) is not that much, specialy because we have the largest mana pool of all classes thanks to Welspring Quaff, we have an extra mana-regen buff (Glacial Embrace) and you can always spark+ to recover some mana

Well, that's all (I think). I had to rewrite the post because something weird happened and it was cut by half when published :P I think I'm still missing something...

I hope this helps and makes it more clear

Karmay - Sanctuary · October 2010

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

1. Frostblade adds 30% of CASTER'S base magic attack (at lv 10) the recipient's weapon modifier in the form of water damage, it depends on YOUR magic attack, not the recipient's.

I don't think you read everyone's responses: the skill description for frostblade is wrong. You can test this yourself, it's very simple. Go to the starting area for any of the races and buff a noob. If the skill is based on your magic attack, the noob will start 1-shotting all the mobs since 30% of your base magic attack is >> noob weapon damage.

Notice that this does not happen...

Leni - Raging Tide · October 2010

Karmay - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think you read everyone's responses: the skill description for frostblade is wrong. You can test this yourself, it's very simple. Go to the starting area for any of the races and buff a noob. If the skill is based on your magic attack, the noob will start 1-shotting all the mobs since 30% of your base magic attack is >> noob weapon damage.

Notice that this does not happen...

Oh yeah, I've been wondering that myself, and the only conclusion I was able to make after some experiments is that the increase is equal to 30% of the recipient's weapon attack, and it's not dependant on their base physical or magical attack nor your base magic attack, even if the description clearly states it. I even went as far as trying with a barb with 1-1 magic attack :P and he did got an increase, minimal, but an increase; this proves it's not dependant on recipient's magic attack which was what i was trying to point out.

So yeah, even the description is plain wrong or there's a complicate equation that uses that 30% of your magic attack and combines it somehow with the recipient's weapon modifier to determinate the exact increase but I have no idea of how the hell does it work xP

Anyway, thanks for pointing that out

I'm editing previous post.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2010

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

Oh yeah, I've been wondering that myself, and the only conclusion I was able to make after some experiments is that the increase is equal to 30% of the recipient's weapon attack, and it's not dependant on their base physical or magical attack nor your base magic attack, even if the description clearly states it. I even went as far as trying with a barb with 1-1 magic attack :P and he did got an increase, minimal, but an increase; this proves it's not dependant on recipient's magic attack which was what i was trying to point out.

So yeah, even the description is plain wrong or there's a complicate equation that uses that 30% of your magic attack and combines it somehow with the recipient's weapon modifier to determinate the exact increase but I have no idea of how the hell does it work xP

Anyway, thanks for pointing that out I'm editing previous post.

To add to that, the damage increase is so low that its negligible. Therefore, using undine to increase the negligible damage is also negligible.. and thus there is no reason to spam undine and frostblade to help someone else hold aggro.

Leni - Raging Tide · October 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

To add to that, the damage increase is so low that its negligible. Therefore, using undine to increase the negligible damage is also negligible.. and thus there is no reason to spam undine and frostblade to help someone else hold aggro.

Au contraire, let's take this average axe BM tanking Pole as an example:

BM's attack is 2263-4211 = average 3237. If we asume Frostblade works as previously stated then an extra 30% will give us 3237 + 971 = average attack.

Pole's P. Def is 3204 so each hit will deal 1537 damage. DPS = 1275
Pole's water def is 3223, so with Frostblade each hit will deal 2021 damage. DPS = 1677
And if you use Undine then each hit will deal 2238 damage. DPS = 1857

That makes a difference of 582 per second or 45.64%

So yeah, there's a difference, and that's assuming he's auto-attacking...

I didn't wrote down the formulas to keep this as clean as possible, but you can find them here.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2010

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

Au contraire, let's take this average axe BM tanking Pole as an example:

BM's attack is 2263-4211 = average 3237. If we asume Frostblade works as previously stated then an extra 30% will give us 3237 + 971 = average attack.

Pole's P. Def is 3204 so each hit will deal 1537 damage. DPS = 1275

Pole's water def is 3223, so with Frostblade each hit will deal 2021 damage. DPS = 1677

And if you use Undine then each hit will deal 2238 damage. DPS = 1857

That makes a difference of 582 per second or 45.64%

So yeah, there's a difference, and that's assuming he's auto-attacking...

I didn't wrote down the formulas to keep this as clean as possible, but you can find them here

frostblade doesn't add anywhere even remotely near that much damage. Try again.

Leni - Raging Tide · October 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

frostblade doesn't add anywhere even remotely near that much damage. Try again.

Read again:

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

If we asume Frostblade works as previously stated

And we're using Frostblade + Undine

If you dont agree with this then make your own calculations and post them here please, also share how are you calculating the extra damage from Frostblade, and if it is from an official source, much better.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2010

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

Read again:

And we're using Frostblade + Undine

If you dont agree with this then make your own calculations and post them here please, also share how are you calculating the extra damage from Frostblade, and if it is from an official source, much better.

Nobody really knows exactly how frostblade is calculated (that I've read anyway), just a bunch of theories that are never accurate in game. I know you are wrong because I've tested frostblade a number of times with friends, and the damage increase is so small that it isn't noticeable. Honestly, the only real way for you to practically calculate the damage would be to go find that mob with a bajillion hp out in the ocean wherever it is, get a 5.0 aps char to start attacking it.. lets say for a minute. Write down the damage and then repeat with frostblade. You can't test without a weapon on (it doesn't add any damage at all if there is no weapon equipped), and the extra damage just gets absorbed into the damage range of the weapon, so you need to take an average over a very large number of hits. It's not that important to me, but if you're really that curious.. have fun.

Leni - Raging Tide · October 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Nobody really knows exactly how frostblade is calculated (that I've read anyway), just a bunch of theories that are never accurate in game. I know you are wrong because I've tested frostblade a number of times with friends, and the damage increase is so small that it isn't noticeable. Honestly, the only real way for you to practically calculate the damage would be to go find that mob with a bajillion hp out in the ocean wherever it is, get a 5.0 aps char to start attacking it.. lets say for a minute. Write down the damage and then repeat with frostblade. You can't test without a weapon on (it doesn't add any damage at all if there is no weapon equipped), and the extra damage just gets absorbed into the damage range of the weapon, so you need to take an average over a very large number of hits. It's not that important to me, but if you're really that curious.. have fun.

Actualy is more practical to use official formulas, and that's what I did

and again you're only taking into consideration Frostblade alone.

The main point of this thread remains valid, and now it's even proved with that little example, Frostblade + Undine is a combo that improves tanking.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2010

Leni - Raging Tide wrote: »

Actualy is more practical to use official formulas, and that's what I did and again you're only taking into consideration Frostblade alone.

The main point of this thread remains valid, and now it's even proved with that little example, Frostblade + Undine is a combo that improves tanking.

lmao, your math is TERRIBLE. You don't have the formulas right, its hard to tell if you are just a really good troll or just that bad at math. Go try it, if you see a 45.6% increase in damage with undine + frostblade, you can talk.

Your main point is invalid, as you've yet to come up with any evidence at all to support your point (throwing numbers around without formulas or basic understanding of math does not count as evidence btw).

Borsuc - Raging Tide · October 2010

...why not just test it on a physical immune target? I can assure you the damage is not as negligible as some people make it seem -- sure it may not be twice damage, but LOL seriously, it's a buff that lasts 15min (30min for sage)... what buff gives you so much more damage? It would be overpowered. The damage it gives is adequate IMO. I know this because it didn't take forever to kill Haunted Headless.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

...why not just test it on a physical immune target? I can assure you the damage is not as negligible as some people make it seem -- sure it may not be twice damage, but LOL seriously, it's a buff that lasts 15min (30min for sage)... what buff gives you so much more damage? It would be overpowered. The damage it gives is adequate IMO. I know this because it didn't take forever to kill Haunted Headless.

physical immune mob would be another easy way to test it, wonder why nobody has done this yet :P

Leni - Raging Tide · October 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

lmao, your math is TERRIBLE. You don't have the formulas right, its hard to tell if you are just a really good troll or just that bad at math.

Already provided link for formulas, not gonna even bother to reply untill you make one solid and serious argument on that, it's hard to tell if you're just a really bad troll or just that hard-headed.

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Go try it, if you see a 45.6% increase in damage with undine + frostblade, you can talk.

Your main point is invalid, as you've yet to come up with any evidence at all to support your point (throwing numbers around without formulas or basic understanding of math does not count as evidence btw).

What better evidence than experience AND math? Try reading previous posts perhaps? How 'bout you start with the 1st one? b:shutup

Oh lord, why can't people stay on topic... Look: *uses same tone one would use to explain a kid why 1 + 1 = 2* even if you're right and damage increase is "negligible", the main point of this thread is that Frostblade + Undine make C-C-C-COMBO!! (/emphasis) and it helps odd tanks to do their job, even if the damage increase was only 5%!

I just hope that if there's a wizzie out there in an instance at the boss, no barb to be found, with an aggro-happy sin in squad and the BM is forced to take the role as tank, they will remember to give Frostblade only to the "lucky" BM and spam Undine like crazy every 12 seconds.

That's all I have to say. Feel free to comment/flame/insult or whatever Adroit, you will be ignored.

Blosque - Sanctuary · October 2010

I have to say, you're as pro as they come when trolls are involved. Maybe if I refuse to read all the old posts in the wizard forum I can be as good as you one day. We can only hope right? b:victory

Here's some math for you...

lvl102 fist bm with 5.0aps and +10 striking dragons vs Haunted Headless

30 seconds of attacks without buff: 0 damage
30 seconds of attacks with frostblade: 29,800
30 seconds of attacks with frostblade and undine: I have no ******* clue because I pulled aggro from my second crit undine attack and got wrecked before 30 seconds was up! Frostblade + undine does less damage than an undine crit. I can definitely see how that would be useful though. b:chuckle

GG troll. I refuse to pay the toll to cross your bridge. C'mon Adroit, let's go kill something worth our time. b:bye

Leni - Raging Tide · October 2010

Blosque - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have to say, you're as pro as they come when trolls are involved. Maybe if I refuse to read all the old posts in the wizard forum I can be as good as you one day. We can only hope right? b:victory

Here's some math for you...

lvl102 fist bm with 5.0aps and +10 striking dragons vs Haunted Headless

30 seconds of attacks without buff: 0 damage
30 seconds of attacks with frostblade: 29,800
30 seconds of attacks with frostblade and undine: I have no ******* clue because I pulled aggro from my second crit undine attack and got wrecked before 30 seconds was up! Frostblade + undine does less damage than an undine crit. I can definitely see how that would be useful though. b:chuckle

GG troll. I refuse to pay the toll to cross your bridge. C'mon Adroit, let's go kill something worth our time. b:bye

Lol what's this? Oh! You have some data! Nice! Let's examine it.

30 secs of 5aps = 150 hits in 30 seconds (omgwtf!!!)
29800 damage/150 hits = 198 damage per hit = 993 damage per second.

+10 Striking Dragons have 1044-1111 attack = 1077.5 average
Now, if the assumption about Frostblade is correct then it should add 323 water damage to the fists.

So, if The Haunted Headless has 2730 water defense then, using the same formulas, +10 Striking Dragons with Frostblade should deal 194 damage per hit because he's immune to physical attacks so he's only recieving water damage.

198 and 194... anyone finds them similar or remotely close? xD

Then now we can prove two things now, thanks to our friend:
1. Frostblade does work like previously stated (or very very very similarly :P)
2. Formulas used in previous excercise are correct.

Thanks for the info and the enlightment

prof · October 2010

what's the gear of the wr hitting this 198? 2 ses? just curious, because out of my test, the atk only went up slightly. damage was only slightly higher when I used items that increased matk

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/12264
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/16050

studying most servers from pwi, a lot of people don't use cv accessories besides rings(nubs) but they do use ses. I've seen many physical classes with double ses, I haven't the slightlest idea why(cheaper way to get crit than cv ring? I know for the mdef, but 2 makes you miss even robes..).

1 ses
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1a08e8d9ae61c93f
2
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=624f1d34a7f3920a

what's your formula say about that? he also could have been using using element stones, fire glitch, or element pill.

Evanera - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Leni just stop posting ..
Anyone who uses this poorly calculated combo on a boss is a waste of a character.
Just no ..

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · October 2010

Frostblade, Poison Fang, Blazing Arrow, Condensed Thorn, and Drake's Breath Bash all work the same. The added damage is a percent of average physical weapon attack.

If the person you buff with a 40% frostblade has a weapon that does 1500-2000 damage, the added water damage is exactly 0.4*1750 = 700. A fixed 700 water damage is added to all skills and attacks based off of physical damage. This typically increases damage by 3-10% depending on the build and attack.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · October 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Frostblade, Poison Fang, Blazing Arrow, Condensed Thorn, and Drake's Breath Bash all work the same. The added damage is a percent of average physical weapon attack.

If the person you buff with a 40% frostblade has a weapon that does 1500-2000 damage, the added water damage is exactly 0.4*1750 = 700. A fixed 700 water damage is added to all skills and attacks based off of physical damage. This typically increases damage by 3-10% depending on the build and attack.

*loves maxed frostblade*

the damage boost is actually noticable even sparked

and undine is a skill every wizzie over 79 spams so while this isnt a terribly effective combo your going to be frosting phys DD and undineing anyways

Regenbogen - Lost City · October 2010

Tip: lv10 morning dew = Better healing for the tank

don't mind me i am on trolltour b:bye

Adroit - Lost City · October 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Frostblade, Poison Fang, Blazing Arrow, Condensed Thorn, and Drake's Breath Bash all work the same. The added damage is a percent of average physical weapon attack.

If the person you buff with a 40% frostblade has a weapon that does 1500-2000 damage, the added water damage is exactly 0.4*1750 = 700. A fixed 700 water damage is added to all skills and attacks based off of physical damage. This typically increases damage by 3-10% depending on the build and attack.

interesting, I've never seen frostblade increase attack by 10%, but 3-5% seems somewhat reasonable. Anyway thx for clarification.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

*loves maxed frostblade*

the damage boost is actually noticable even sparked

and undine is a skill every wizzie over 79 spams so while this isnt a terribly effective combo your going to be frosting phys DD and undineing anyways

I cant speak for other wizzies, but I generally dont spam undine in pve unless I'm about to use sparks or against magic resist mobs. In my experience, undine generally increases damage by roughly 30%, and it usually ends up about breaking even dps wise if you are just spamming pyro gush (time it takes to undine you could have almost got another normal skill off). And I'm cheap and hate using mp pots if I can help it

Evanera - Heavens Tear · October 2010

I only use undine on mag resistance mobs in BH. It's pointless otherwise, because you only get a few K more damage each shot, and in the time it takes to cast an undine you could have gushed. Not to mention the amount of mana it uses is a major QQ.

Tip: Undine + Frostblade = Better tanks

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