Stop telling people to go Demon and let them choose their own path.

Silest - Sanctuary · October 2010

That's all I have to say.

Shulkie - Dreamweaver · October 2010

<went sage. doesnt regret it at all. other than skill costs.. grrr. but then if everyone now goes demon, maybe sage skills will drop in cost. please.

Zoe - Heavens Tear · October 2010

I think this topic is desperately needed on the archer forums.

sleepcat · October 2010

There's a new demon Veno trend? How'd it get started? :O

Kali - Raging Tide · October 2010

Cause Demon Venos are so damn sexy. That's all I have to say. b:cute

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Funny, everyone told me to go sage and not demon...

One of the nice things about venos is that both the sage and demon paths are worth it.

That said, this demon has no regrets.

tearvalerin · October 2010

last i checked, i convince everyone to go sage...

@zoe its common knowledge sage archer cannot hold a candle with its benefits compared to demon

Cocobelle - Sanctuary · October 2010

< Went sage because it suits my character's looks but kind of regret it because of the skill costs but doesn't really care. b:cute

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Cocobelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

kind of regret it because of the skill costs

Demon skills aren't exactly cheap either. b:cry

Alphae - Lost City · October 2010

Went demon and have 0 regrets. Love it

tweakz · October 2010

More people going to one over the other isn't going to change costs much past the L89 skills which are cheap anyway. I'd be happy with either Sage or Demon for Veno, and I think the two compliment each other in squads. Gotta love the demon veno in RB that ragged on me about sage venos being slow as I passed them and stayed ahead. b:chuckle

Silest - Sanctuary · October 2010

I did this forum a favor by not saying much in my first post as I was incredibly pissed off. But I've cooled off now. And I probably should have placed this in the sanctuary forum. It seems I'm going to be on edge with just about every veno on my server. Cause I know a demon veno is gonna have some **** to say upon my answer to their "demon/sage" question, being sage.

First of all, I'm trying to get my sage quest done. I joined a brim group and they killed 2 bosses, leaving me with fats, so I gotta hope someday I get him killed. The other veno that was in the group assumed I was a demon, to which I said I am not and this is for my sage quest.

"Sage is overrated". To which I said, "err I have my own reasons for going sage".

Such a little thing was a enough to boil my blood as I had not forgotten the last time I told a veno I was going sage and I got judged for "being like everyone else".

I researched both celestial ranks. I know why I WANT to be a sage. I want to make DDs stronger for longer. Thats pretty much sage. Demon has its own goodies, but they don't do what sage can do for me. Bottom line.

I don't rag on demons but I certainly wont deal with being ragged on for going sage.

tweakz · October 2010

Silest - Sanctuary wrote: »

I researched both celestial ranks. I know why I WANT to be a sage. I want to make DDs stronger for longer. Thats pretty much sage. Demon has its own goodies, but they don't do what sage can do for me. Bottom line.

-Something everyone should do, and everyone should stop blindly following advice. A lot of the sticky advice sucks.

Alphae - Lost City · October 2010

An equal portion of the sticky advice is very good. It all depends on your playstyle. Veno is not a "walkthrough-ready" class. There are PLENTY of ways to play it and be a good veno, a valuable asset to PvE and PvP squads and in TW, and to be a beast in PvE as well. All of these builds have been proved totally viable, valuable, and wanted in squads:

pure arcane
arcane/vit hybrid
full vit arcane
light armor
heavy armor
heavy/arcane armor
heavy fox
heavy axe
channeling builds
crit builds
defense builds
citrine shards
garnet shards
mixed shards
sage veno
demon veno
venos who switched from sage (hated it) to demon and love it
venos who switched from demon (hated it) to sage and love it

I know better than to feed trolls, but this is truth. All these are viable ways to play veno.

tweakz · October 2010

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

I know better than to feed trolls, but this is truth. All these are viable ways to play veno.

b:chuckle yeah right.

Zoe - Heavens Tear · October 2010

If you know how to handle the build you choose, all of those can be useful yes.

I'm a sage veno that never had any intention of going demon, even though since getting the 3rd fairy I have the ability to change, I never will.

Xainou - Sanctuary · October 2010

Blah, telling people which path to choose is so wrong.
You got to take so many things into consideration: Your playstyle, how much money you want to invest, which skills you want or cant stand and why youre doing this for.

If someone asks me which path to go, I tell them: Go look up the skills on ecatomb, check what you want and look at prices.

The people saying only demon is right, well, theyre either lazy or just plain trolling. Theres no *RIGHT* way, theres just the one that fits the person whos looking for it.

Im a sage veno... Simply cause I like to help my team mates and cause I cant stand demon ironwood. Dont regret my choice.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

This is definitely a thread for every class. I don't really know about every single class but for the ones I know the Sage and Demon paths as well balanced and compliment each other.

Those paths are really all about playstyle and what works the best for you. Nobody should ever tell you what to choose. They can give suggestions and explain why they would choose the said path just so you can get a better idea of what each path can offer.

I really understand how you felt Silest. That was a direct "my playstyle is correct, yours is wrong".

I chose Demon because that was my exact playstyle and I'm loving it. I love "chance to hit, chance to miss" skills that might either save you or kill you. Yeah, I can't fully trust my skills (Demon Leech, Demon Ironwood etc.) but I love taking the risk.

Segreta - Sanctuary · October 2010

When someone ask me which is *better* Sage or Demon i just *facedesk* sigh at those guys b:surrender

Go to
http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php
See by yourself and don't bug me b:bye

Selth - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Question: How does one BECOME a sage/demon? Is it when your charrie is being created? -is confused-

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Selth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Question: How does one BECOME a sage/demon? Is it when your charrie is being created? -is confused-

When you hit level 89, there are two different spiritual cultivation paths that you can choose from- demon or sage. When you complete that set of culti quests, you become one or the other.

Selth - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Ah. Okay! Thank you!

Lulu - Harshlands · October 2010

There is no right or wrong while choosing demon or sage.I am sage and I love it, never regretted it.In the end it rly is about personal preference... b:cute

Keliska - Raging Tide · October 2010

Demon < Sage

Give 2 sparks instead on 1
Gives you more defense to live off of.
You don't die because you aggro-ed opposing mob and now pet can't regain aggro.

Demon I'd prolly prefer to HA venos but, then again I am not sure.

tweakz · October 2010

Keliska - Raging Tide wrote: »

Demon < Sage

Give 2 sparks instead on 1
Gives you more defense to live off of.
You don't die because you aggro-ed opposing mob and now pet can't regain aggro.

Demon I'd prolly prefer to HA venos but, then again I am not sure.

Lol, you gotta ignore:

Venemous

Demon version reduces target's Wood resistance by 30% for 6 seconds.

Nova

Demon version makes chaotic enemies take 30% more damage.

Bramble Guard

Demon version always returns 75% of damage.

Fox Form

Demon version gives movement speed increase of 60% for 6 seconds after transforming.

Fox Wallop

Demon version gives a 20% chance to make all hits critical for 5 seconds.

There is no definitive better choice for veno when it comes to demon/ sage.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

Tweakz is right. Demon skills have some great advantages that Sage don't and vice versa. Sage and Demon for Venomancers are really well balanced and do compliment each other ( a Demon and a Sage Venomancer in the same squad).

-Demon Venomous debuffs, Sage only gives more chi. Chi can be gained from genies/pots easily if you consider it so important. Demon > Sage.

-Sage Ironwood decreases the physical defence 100% of the time (great for squad) but some people might want to take the risk of 20% for a greater defence decrease. Sage > Demon or Sage = Demon (depends on people's opinion)

-Sage Blazing deals 15% more damage but Demon deals damage in shorter time and since Blazing does not always manage to last its full duration, Demon has more benefits. Sage = Demon or Demon > Sage (if it doesn't last to its full duration)

-Demon Frost has a chance to freeze the enemy which is very useful in PvP and most like in certain PvE scenarios,too. You won't be wasting your spark for an extra DoT skill very often so 95% chance is not very useful in this case. Demon > Sage

-Sage Noxious deals more damage but Demon one can be used more often. Sage = Demon

-Sage Lucky stuns for 3 seconds not 2 but some people might find the reduced cooldown useful. Sage > Demon or Sage = Demon

-Demon Parasitic Nova is better than the Sage because of the debuff. Demon > Sage (I repeat chi is not the issue)

- Sage lending hand might not consume your spark while Demon might transfer two at the cost of one. Sage = Demons (depends on situations/opinions)

- Demon HP/MP regen skills has shorter cooldown which has quite a difference ( 300 seconds vs 210). I believe it's more useful if you can heal yourself more often than the extra 10% Sage gives.
Demon > Sage or Demon = Sage (depends on opinion)

- Demon Summer Sprint = Sage Summer sprint.
They are equal but the difference is that they work in different situations. It doesn't matter if you can purify yourself in PvP if the Blademaster is going to stun you and he succeeds. He'll most likely kill you. It doesn't matter, however, if you have stun immunity if the boss is going to debuff your physical defence to 0 and 1shot you.

- Demon Amplify Damage = Sage Amplify Damage depending on situation. Some could say Sage > Demon

-Demon Bramble > Sage Bramble. No comment.

-Demon Purge = Sage Purge depending on scenario (PvE 1st, PvP 2nd)

-Demon Fox Form = Sage Form Fox depending on situations and playstyle.

-Demon Leech = Sage Leech. Considering PvP only, though, I could say Sage > Demon

-Demon Melee/Wood mastery = Sage Melee/Wood Mastery, this depends only on playstyle.

Well...I could keep going and add all the skills but I think those are already enough to prove the balance.

Keliska - Raging Tide · October 2010

tweakz wrote: »

Lol, you gotta ignore:

Venemous

Nova

Bramble Guard

Fox Form

Fox Wallop

There is no definitive better choice for veno when it comes to demon/ sage.

You don't die because you aggro-ed opposing mob and now pet can't regain aggro.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Keliska - Raging Tide wrote: »

You don't die because you aggro-ed opposing mob and now pet can't regain aggro.

Part of playing a veno is knowing how to manage your aggro. Some of us are demon with a lot of minus channelling and a very high magic attack, yet somehow we choose when to take aggro and when not to.

Also, there are tricks you can use to make yourself immune to damage, so if you want, you can take aggro and not die.

Just to clear up something about demon lending: when you do pass two sparks, you really only loose 1 yourself. So in reality, it's effectively level 1 lending with a much shorter cooldown.

You can make similar arguments about sage. If it isn't played correctly, you can cause your own death.

Both paths are fairly well balanced and have their advantages and disadvantages.

tweakz · October 2010

Just some notes in addition to what Desdi laid out..

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

-Demon Parasitic Nova is better than the Sage because of the debuff. Demon > Sage (I repeat chi is not the issue)

Gotta consider all possibilities, Like solo AoE'ing 50+ mobs at a time. The advantage of demon Nova isn't going to be as good as the advantage of Sage Noxious in a 3 hit AoE combo. This I do with a L99 +10 weapon being pure mag. Demon would have to spend far more to accomplish the same solo AoE solo ability.

- Sage lending hand might not consume your spark while Demon might transfer two at the cost of one. Sage = Demons (depends on situations/opinions)

In the case where you're spam feeding chi, Sage can go without running out while Demon can send more than the person can hold. I think Sage is better for that?

- Demon HP/MP regen skills has shorter cooldown which has quite a difference ( 300 seconds vs 210). I believe it's more useful if you can heal yourself more often than the extra 10% Sage gives.
Demon > Sage or Demon = Sage (depends on opinion)

When soloing bosses that barely give time to get skills aside from pet heal off, it's nice being able to go a bit longer between using those. Being pure mag, I scarcely run into a situation where I'd need them sooner.

-Demon Purge = Sage Purge depending on scenario (PvE 1st, PvP 2nd)

This wont apply to everyone, but I fail to see much advantage for either considering my build / DPS. Why purge when I can 2-5 shot them (typically before they can respond well), yet they'll probably do likewise before I get close enough to AoE purge a bunch unless I Domain -> Feral -> go in.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · October 2010

sage purge is pretty much the best skill you can have in your arsenal for group pvp/TW
debuffing a 4 cat push in 1 shot when they get stopped at a binding tower followed by myriad almost insures the push is stopped cold.

the reduced cooldown from demon purge doesnt really hold a candle to it. for pve,obviously, it doesnt make much of a difference. the only places i could even possible see it coming into play is for soloing 2-2/2-3 cosmoforce (the reduced cooldown still isnt short enough, but it would help, and Belial which a demon might be able to keep up with.

sage v. demon summer sprint could really go either way. and either one can be augmented by a complimenting apoth (vacuity/soul cleanse)

you know you've frustrated the **** out of a DD squad when they start stacking debuffs and amps on you, the BM throws on HF, you purify yourself and walk away with barely a charm tick.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

Of course there are many scenarios, possibilities and combinations especially when it comes to PvP including the personal playstyle. You have have probably noticed that I did put my personal opinions in most of the skills. This is why I kept saying "depends on opinion/situation".

Thank you for the extra information Tweakz and Sasha. It's always nice to learn more about what our skills can do and how we can combine them. I hope I didn't sound as if I was supporting the Demon path because I consider both paths good and I do miss some of the Sage benefits.... Nevertheless, I'm very happy with my choice!

Stop telling people to go Demon and let them choose their own path.

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