Are venomancers useful?

_Nyasia_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

It's just a question that i have been wondering seeing almost all the wc are asking for bms and sins, which is understandable as they do get crazy dps. so i was just wondering if it will be worthwhile to really level up a venomancer, especially will one be useful in later lvls, for example, fcc and nirvana, etc.

Thanks

ps i do have a herc

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

I don't like saying this but....with a Hercules for sure you're going to be wanted in squads. However, you'll most likely be used as a tool since they want your pet not your yourself. This is the truth but I still enjoy the game because some squads are still nice to play with, especially if you have friends.

A competent Venomancer can make the squad kill things faster because of our debuffs (Amplify Damage, Myriad Rainbow, Extreme Poison from genie, Ironwood, Demon Parasitic Nova). Though, all those debuffs can be applied by other classes too but the combination of your debuffs and their debuffs have a better result.

A Blademaster can use Heaven's Flame which is just like Amplify Damage and use Extreme Poison to stack it. That is good, isn't it? Now imagine Amplify Damage + Extreme Poison + Heaven's Flame + Myriad Rainbow (let's say you get lucky and get armour break). That makes the DDs do insane damage (especially with criticals).

So no matter what a Venomancer still remains the debuffer but I do admit that PWE should have worked more on the Venomancer's debuff skills because as you can see Venomancers can be replaceable. (while Bards in FW probably won't be).

Personally I play this class because I simply love it. It's very flexible and versatile. You can use 3-4 different builds and still work great (unlike a HA Wizards for example). You have so many pets to choose from and...I just love debuffs ( + Demon

). I also like soloing in general. While I absolutely love teamwork, sometimes I prefer doing things alone.

Edyn - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Same as Desdi said.

If you ask me all classes are as important and we're all at our best when we're in a mixed party. Like each char can help fullfill the destination of the squad and each with his own skills can cooperate.
Ok have to admid that i also see many shouts for f.e.x barbs but that dont neccesarely means they're the best or superior over us venos (No offence tankers i

ya

) but i think there are also alot more venos then barbs.
If you like being a veno and you play your class well (important for each and every char) you'll find squads without a prob.
Im also still herc-less atm, tried saving up but then i saw my poor armor from like 15 lvl ago and i just went for better gear now first. Personally no one ever told me they didnt wanted to squad with me cause i didnt had a herc.
Abused over our skills/pets..well idk. What should a cleric say then? Standing there always healing, or moments where you just have to stand in BB. Can say the same for even barbs, used as tankers and end up with the high repair bill.. I do understand what you meant Desdi but personally i think we can say this about also other classes then just venos.

Alphae - Lost City · October 2010

_Nyasia_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's just a question that i have been wondering seeing almost all the wc are asking for bms and sins, which is understandable as they do get crazy dps. so i was just wondering if it will be worthwhile to really level up a venomancer, especially will one be useful in later lvls, for example, fcc and nirvana, etc.

Thanks

ps i do have a herc

Mostly I think you see BMs and sins asked for because the breed they're looking for (5aps/high aps) are very rare (despite how things may seem). Venos don't need incredibly expensive gear to be a great asset to their squads, so a veno is easier to find. (Not to say that a veno with great gear is worthless or something.)

Katzyn - Sanctuary · October 2010

I agree with Alphae - there are so many venos, it's not hard to find them, rofl. But a good aps sin/BM? Those are expensive, and sometimes hard to find, so they have to be WC'd for more.

But yeah, venos are very useful. Who else can purge on request, pass chi mid battle, amp the boss for longer than a couple of seconds, etc? Plus, in places like TT, our pets often do as much/more damage than we ourselves do. XD So it's like having a 7th person in an already full squad. Makes things go much faster.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

As has been pointed out, a venomancer's debuffs alone are worth the equivalent of an extra DD to any squad and they do stack with what other classes bring to the table. Furthermore a veno is independent to a large degree, which means it can readily deal with many threats without assistance from other players. Finally, the class is flexible enough it can competently fill many different squad roles. As has been pointed out by previous posters there are many advantages to having a veno in squad.

However, it should be pointed out that despite its virtues PW does suffer from having one of the worst implementations of the tank-healer-dps model. Debuffing is merely convenient and not strictly necessary, and while the role of tank can be competently filled by many clases at endgame (including venos to some degree) the only class absolutely necessary for any squad is Cleric, assuming we are discussing content that cannot be effectively soloed.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

Edyn - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I do understand what you meant Desdi but personally i think we can say this about also other classes then just venos.

Oh yes, every single class is being used. Some people simply see others as tools and poor Clerics are usually the victims b:sad I was just refering to the Hercules things since this is the Venomancer forum.

Originally posted by MANray_-Sanctuary

Finally, the class is flexible enough it can competently fill many different squad roles

That's a very good point. I had completely forgotten about it as Venomancers are usually debufing and passing chi (and tanking in FCC). Venomancers, being a solo and an indepedent class, can fulfill different roles and have several duties such as escorting someone, killing guards, killing walkers while the squad is occupied with the boss, catching runners, saving time if the Barbarian is dead, saving the Cleric if the squad is almost wiped etc. In case of a squad wipe,if there are still mobs, the most suitable one to clear them to make it safe for the Cleric is the Venomancer as she can heal herself quickly (and her MP too) and doesn't need to be healed while fighting (this is why I always carry a couple of resurrection scrolls with me ).

Just like myself, most people probably forget about those little roles...
Well, I do those on instinct so I never thought of it as a real advantage for the squad. Thank you for mentioning is Manray!

_Nyasia_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

thank you very much for all the positive replies. they make me feel a lot better. i like the kind of class that can be very good assets to parties but don't necessarily need others' help, so i think veno will suit me quite well. thank you for the motivations.

Selth - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Hmm.. I found venos rely on:

1. Magie/mana
2. weapons. They really don't need armor, but can be pretty useless without buffs.

Meyki - Sanctuary · October 2010

Selth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hmm.. I found venos rely on:

1. Magie/mana
2. weapons. They really don't need armor, but can be pretty useless without buffs.

b:shutup

Bellatrixia - Raging Tide · October 2010

I myself am a veno and I can say that after playing on all of the other classes, a veno would have to be my favourite.

I personally have both of the legendary pets (hercules + phoenix) and the versatility from these pets honestly makes me an incredibly useful addition for a squad/faction.

Now, I really don't like saying this, but in all truth, without a legendary pet a veno is basically a lower-grade light build and simply, is not very useful + no matter what level a veno is, without a legendary pet there will always be someone your level with a legendary pet so the competition is quite harsh for those without.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

Bellatrixia - Raging Tide wrote: »

Now, I really don't like saying this, but in all truth, without a legendary pet a veno is basically a lower-grade light build and simply, is not very useful

In PvE a veno should be able to deal with patrols or strays using any pet. In what regards dps output a herc is not the best choice available, and a pet should not make up a majority of a veno's damage in the first place, except on (?) bosses. As a tank herc is suboptimal except for said bosses at mid high levels. If your primary contribution to a squad comes from what pet you use then you're not doing things right, a veno's role is far more involved and complex than that... PvP i won't really get into except to say that unless you're at the level range in which you can just send your nix in and kite (and still you'd have to deal with genies) chances are you'll actually have to rely on skill and experience.

Now, i really don't like saying this, but venos who think leg pets are what allows them to make a contribution are usually no more than gimped DDs and pet Clerics. Legendary pets should be used to complement the honed skills of good gamers, and not as crutches that allow fail players to coast by.

+ no matter what level a veno is, without a legendary pet there will always be someone your level with a legendary pet so the competition is quite harsh for those without.

This is a very different argument, one that is not founded in actual gameplay considerations, but on the same looser mentality that has made instance runs almost exclusively available to squads far above the actual level range they were actually meant for or perfectly capable classes and builds be rejected to favor ineffective choices that conform to player expectations.

Legendary pets are great tools, the best for their specialized uses, but they entitle you to nothing.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Bellatrixia - Raging Tide wrote: »

Now, I really don't like saying this, but in all truth, without a legendary pet a veno is basically a lower-grade light build and simply, is not very useful

So amp, bramble, and lending aren't very useful? Thanks, I'll stop using them.

OP has a herc anyway, so that comparison is moot here.

But anyways, venos will always be useful and you'll generally find squads wanting venos for FF (70-80s, sometimes 90+ depending on the people), most of the TTs that a majority of the population still does, RB, etc. If Sanct is anything like HT, then the world chats will vary throughout the day (asking for herc venos in the morning and barbs in the evening).

The recent crazy for 5 APS is usually limited to nirvana and the higher TTs (at least from what I've seen), and that's mainly to knock out the bosses as quickly as possible.

Any class can be useful or useless. It's the effort you put into your character and the skillset you bring to the table that make the difference.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

I think this wrong mentality of "No herc? no use' is a resault of the sea of unskilled players we have today. Because:

(1) Most of the Venomancers don't know what their role is in squads. They don't know how to control their pet (eg. to prevent them from attacking randomly at AOEs) and in the worst case don't even know what their skills are for, don't level them up, don't learn them, ignore the whole Fox form Skill Tree. They also don't have fast reflexes, they can't react in tight situations, they can't judge what to do and what not (well this comes from experience too) and...some of them refuse to listen to others' advice. Not only do they become useless but also become trouble for the squad.
In this case, when a Venomancer has a Hercules their typical thinking is "well, at least she can tank the bosses" and thus we have this "Herc-less Venomancers are useless".

(2) The other classes don't know how to play either and the Venomancer with the Hercules (but also other pets) has to correct their mistakes and save them (tanking the boss, guards etc.etc.). the end up relying on the Hercules way too much and believe that x instance cannot be done unless a Hercules is tanking or a Hercules does this and that (sadly, I've seen people saying this). In this case, no Hercules? OMGz!!!1!! we'll die!!!1

(3) People are lazy. Funny (or tragic..) but true.

So yeah...a lot of them forgot about skills. They forgot that ordinary pets can save their skin,too. Some of the people don't even know why they are asking for a Hercules and..some of them don't even know there are better pet choices for pulling, DPS, debuffing etc. (support in general).

I agree, a Hercules can benefit the squad even more and can survive in places other pets have no chance to but a lot of times they are exaggerating...I think you know what I'm talking about.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

(1) Most of the Venomancers don't know what their role is in squads.
(2) The other classes don't know how to play either
(3) People are lazy.

THIS. Sad but true.

Selth - Dreamweaver · October 2010

I pretty much am very useless with my veno. I tank, but... yea. lvl 14 can't really help me.

Yamiino - Heavens Tear · October 2010

As everyone pointed, bms and assassins are WC'd more since they're harder to find.

About making a veno?
GO FOR IT! My main is and will always be cleric but I have to say that Venomancer is a d#mn kick butt class.

1) It's cheaper than every other class (no pots, nor uber expensive repairs).

2) Can tank most monsters (and some bosses) without getting a single hit.

3) Can help a squad even more than a DD due to debuffs + veno attacks + pet attacks + everyone's bonus damage on attacks from debuffing the mob.

4) Can help the tank to control aggro (bramble) even better, with a kick butt bm or assassin with massive dps it would be an aggro ping pong party (which for most clerics is hell).

5) In FF, you can help the cleric by passing him/her sparks whenever they BB and yet keep attacking.

6) Veno kicks butt on PVP!

7) Do I have to add more to the list? xD

It is a really fun class I have to say, whenever I don't find a squad for my BH i do it alone, takes longer yes, but it is fun. :] I love venos. b:dirty

Yindra - Sanctuary · October 2010

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

However, you'll most likely be used as a tool since they want your pet not your yourself.

And this is notable because... ?

If you're a cleric, they want your heals and buffs, not yourself.

If you're a barb they'll want your HP and defense, not yourself.

If you're a archer... "you have my bow". They don't care about you.

If you're a BM... "and my axe!". Likewise.

Of course, the main difference is that none of the above costs $200.

Krisnda - Lost City · October 2010

Yamiino - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As everyone pointed, bms and assassins are WC'd more since they're harder to find.

Harder to find? I think not, Every squad i've been in at least has 2 not even 1 sin and always 1 or 2 bms. Frost squads are filled with sins, so i'm not getting where the "they are harder to find" came from. Ever since 5 att/sec came out, everyone turned into sins or bms, that's y we cant even find clerics, and now there's a shortage of barbs.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Krisnda - Lost City wrote: »

Harder to find? I think not, Every squad i've been in at least has 2 not even 1 sin and always 1 or 2 bms. Frost squads are filled with sins, so i'm not getting where the "they are harder to find" came from. Ever since 5 att/sec came out, everyone turned into sins or bms, that's y we cant even find clerics, and now there's a shortage of barbs.

I don't think it's a call for BMs and Sins in general so much as for 5 APS. I've known many BMs to get rejected because their APS was too low.

Krisnda - Lost City · October 2010

I see what your saying, but i didnt mean to say it like that XD, what I ment was that sins and bms are not "harder to find" ijs.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · October 2010

True. The other part to it is the number of slots for that role in a squad. Most squads will take a single veno, sometimes two. Whereas there can be 4-5 5APS chars.

It's not so much as them being rarer, persay, as it is the ratio of characters to slots. It's much easier to find one person for a specific role than it is to find 3+.

Venos don't drastically outnumber BMs/Sins, but there's more competition amongst ourselves for few slots.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

Yindra - Sanctuary wrote: »

And this is notable because... ?

If you're a cleric, they want your heals and buffs, not yourself.

If you're a barb they'll want your HP and defense, not yourself.

If you're a archer... "you have my bow". They don't care about you.

If you're a BM... "and my axe!". Likewise.

Of course, the main difference is that none of the above costs $200.

I've already explained earlier why I only mentioned the Venomancers. This is because we were talking about this class and how useful it is.

I, of course, know that every single class is being used in a way or another and I happen to have a Cleric as well, which is the most used one in my opinion, and therefore I know this firsthand.

And about the topic concerning what is the hardest to find, I think it depends on time and luck mostly. In the afternoon (my time) they are usually looking for a Barbarian while late at night, close to midnight, they are usually looking Venomancers or Blademasters. Sometimes I even see people shouting for a Venomancer for a long long time.

Silest - Sanctuary · October 2010

I know I'm useful and nobody can argue why I would not be.

And yeah BMs and Sins can do all of that but it's not often they will do these things. I can count on one hand how many I've played with that use extreme poison, for instance. And a lot of other venos I've played with don't amp/extreme poison. It's usually me..and I'm the designated spark giver. And giving spark can get annoying when I'm on cooldown.

I know I'm in FCC to tank the second half of the instance.. I know I'm not there because they want a debuffer. But I will tank and much more than that because I want to contribute and I can do it well.

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't like saying this but....with a Hercules for sure you're going to be wanted in squads. However, you'll most likely be used as a tool since they want your pet not your yourself. This is the truth but I still enjoy the game because some squads are still nice to play with, especially if you have friends.

My pets are my friends... Don't have any player friends, just associates. Not enjoying the game at all. I am in a world of one. Yall got your loyal trusting friends lol. Guys in the game generally make unreliable friends because it is not friendship they are after. Girls in PW tend to be sadists, and I'm not gonna be someone's punching bag. Who shall be the one that I can mold well with? Have played since May this year - not met someone(or many) like that yet.

(1) Most of the Venomancers don't know what their role is in squads. They don't know how to control their pet (eg. to prevent them from attacking randomly at AOEs) and in the worst case don't even know what their skills are for, don't level them up, don't learn them, ignore the whole Fox form Skill Tree. They also don't have fast reflexes, they can't react in tight situations, they can't judge what to do and what not (well this comes from experience too) and...some of them refuse to listen to others' advice. Not only do they become useless but also become trouble for the squad.
In this case, when a Venomancer has a Hercules their typical thinking is "well, at least she can tank the bosses" and thus we have this "Herc-less Venomancers are useless".

I've met MANY like that. Most definitely the ones who do not listen to me and blame their problems on the pet. Calling it stupid/dumb. They don't understand that manual control > auto, because auto is what gets you in trouble the most. They don't use "follow"(and the pet will ignore follow when in auto mode) to pull it back, and don't realize unsummoning pet when it accidentaly aggros will reset the mob. Lets just blame it all on the damn pet. ^_^

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

Your words are so true Silest. They are all like that. Even those who have friends are only nice to their friends and mean to everyone else.

When I said friends I was actually thinking of my irl ones but I didn't want to get into details. When I joined this game, I told my irl friends and other close online friends (which I have known for over 4 years) about it and they eventually joined,too. It was tons of fun! Now most of them have quited...

If you are cool in the squad they want you in their friends list but once you log off they forget about you. I have to admit though that I have met about ~3 persons here who turned out to be good people. They were the only ones to remember me after my long 5+ month break and now we have each other on msn/skype/etc. I simply consider myself lucky. I truly hope you can find someone, too Silest.

Oh and of course it's always the pet's fault.
/sarcasm

MystiMonk - Sanctuary · October 2010

Katzyn - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree with Alphae - there are so many venos, it's not hard to find them, rofl. But a good aps sin/BM? Those are expensive, and sometimes hard to find, so they have to be WC'd for more.

I would say that here are lot of them as most make them up to farm with which was the original intention of mine.I would say they are usefull

When it comes time to form a squad I trust Barbs or Male Clerics.

Originally Posted by Yindra - Sanctuary View Post
And this is notable because... ?

If you're a cleric, they want your heals and buffs, not yourself.

If you're a barb they'll want your HP and defense, not yourself.

If you're a archer... "you have my bow". They don't care about you.

If you're a BM... "and my axe!". Likewise.

Of course, the main difference is that none of the above costs $200.

This is totally untrue if anything they want those classes more than a Veno.Archurs can be used for luring mobs away.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

When it comes time to form a squad I trust Barbs or Male Clerics.

What?

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · October 2010

When it comes time to form a squad I trust Barbs or Male Clerics.

What?

Didn't you know? Only male clerics have access to things like buffs and IH. b:chuckle

Are venomancers useful?

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