Wizard section needs a new topic.

Maybe he really is emo from fighting Calvin b:shocked

It seems, then, that neither PvE nor PvP are well balanced with 5aps. But it seems to me that the imbalance in PvE is far worse, and far worse for wizards, than the imbalance in PvP. Subtle changes may well sufficiently balance PvP, such as decreasing the cooldown on sleep, but I am not convinced that subtle changes will be enough to balance PvE. A shortrange stun/seal that procs every few seconds would certainly hinder fisters, and make ranged classes thereby more valuable in instances, but I would imagine that it would make controlling aggro more difficult, since your melee tanker would be stuck if a ranged DDer or the cleric stole aggro while he was stunned. Full damage on bosses from ranged attacks would also shift the balance back to ranged classes, which is really where it ought to be, but it seems to me that it would greatly favor -int archers and -chan psychics over wizards.

I'm also not convinced we should be judging what's realistic from what's not. After all, would any of us have guessed a year ago that TW pay would become mirages? Or that 3-3 would only become possibly by people who'd already farmed their gear from it?

fulgida wrote: »

If I understand properly, how this game works, -97% channeling on a wizard trumps 5aps.

I thought they fixed the bug where -channeling affected casting.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Can't say much for other servers, but most of the people on Lost City don't seem to think 5 aps classes are broken in PVP.

Again, just writing stuff here and spouting theory doesn't prove anything. Take a look at Haiz's videos. Take a look at Transcend's videos. They're both non-cashshoppers, both ranged classes, and they both aren't 5 aps. But they hold their ground against most people.

You said it yourself. Most of the time you don't get auto-attacked. It's not as practical in PVP as it is in PVE. Fist DPS is all based on fast, consistent damage overtime. You, being human, don't just stand there and get auto-attacked. That itself, balances it out. There's a huge range disadvantage for fists, and just because you get ***** when you get stunlocked for 12 seconds, doesn't mean it's OP. I mean, 5 people dropping on a lane from a BIDS looks pretty OP too doesn't it? Again, take into account the usefulness and practicality before making judgements.

The whole argument of 5aps being OP in PVP is based on the assumption that the target is stationary. I agree, it's not THAT hard to stunlock somebody since you can overlap occult ice with stuns. But it's not THAT easy to stun somebody long enough to kill them. And if you're doing it with axes endgame, unless they're heavily refined nirvana axes, you're just a stun and dragon monkey.

And just saying, I think it's broken as hell in PVE. But PVP isn't as straightforward as everybody makes it out to be.

You missed my point. If they don't use 5aps because it's not practical, not because of its damage, but because auto-attacking means your target must not move, then it does not say anything about balance.

If you did 9999999 damage with auto-attacking and your opponent has to use immunity skills and he might kill you often, does that make the 9999999 damage balanced? Seriously? Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's balanced when you rarely do use it.

If 5aps was removed from PvP it would not change much at all seeing as you don't use it much in the first place. In fact, on the occasion that you DO use it, it's broken. Like I said, seeing a stunned cata barb go down faster to a physical class with worse gear than you (read: physical reduction versus weak elemental reduction, rock-paper-scissors and all that), nothing will ever convince me this is balanced. b:bye

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yea because most:

1) suck and don't use HP food or genie or apoth or anything at their disposal
2) get ambushed
3) are not prepared and you get a lucky crit

A 33k HP barb here couldn't be taken down by two wizzies (since he was charmed), one with +12 neon purgatory and another with +7 TT99 (at that time). Then you see a single 5aps break through his charm with perhaps a +6 or +10 weapon (huge diff between +10 and +12 btw) while also getting the physical reduction from the barb's HA...

Telling me about people I don't know doesn't rly mean much to me. I don't know how good the mages are, how they work together.. and if the barb was fighting back or just trying to stay alive. I'll still hold to the fact that mages are still fine for pvp.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

You missed my point. If they don't use 5aps because it's not practical, not because of its damage, but because auto-attacking means your target must not move, then it does not say anything about balance.

If you did 9999999 damage with auto-attacking and your opponent has to use immunity skills and he might kill you often, does that make the 9999999 damage balanced? Seriously? Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's balanced when you rarely do use it.

If 5aps was removed from PvP it would not change much at all seeing as you don't use it much in the first place. In fact, on the occasion that you DO use it, it's broken. Like I said, seeing a stunned cata barb go down faster to a physical class with worse gear than you (read: physical reduction versus weak elemental reduction, rock-paper-scissors and all that), nothing will ever convince me this is balanced. b:bye

So if I tote a oneshot weapon that is only capable of hitting once every 3 hours, is that OP? If I tote a weapon that has 10 aps but has a range of 0.00000001, is that OP? You're looking purely at damage output and not at other aspects of the weapon, which is completely wrong when you're dealing with PVP. PVP involves people. People are capable of individual thinking. People don't just stand there and take hits. Thus, how you and your class handles these variables should also be included in balancing comparisons, and not just damage output.

But whatever. You seemed to be stuck on the notion that wizards are gimped at every aspect of the game, despite many wizards coming and telling you otherwise. People have shown you videos, people have given you first-person accounts but you're just wearing blinders and believing only what you choose to believe, and you've stopped looking at things objectively. If "nothing will ever convince you this is balanced", then we're done. I thought we could discuss this like mature beings, but I guess I was wrong. b:bye

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yes in your example it would be OP. That skill of yours has no place in game. So remove it. Does that answer your question?

Let me detail it further. Removing it won't break PvP. If anything, it would remove the certain situations in which it would be OP and you would need an immunity to counter it.

And wtf I didn't say wizards suck in PvP. Can you even read? I said that 5aps is not balanced in PvP either, on the rare occasion that you do use it. Since it's barely used, removing it won't change much. If anything it would remove that option when you do have it (which is broken) to auto-attack someone and wtfpwn him in 0.5 sec

And besides, people think and stuff but not much you can do when the game decides you can't move aka you are stunned. Think of cata barbs getting stunned and 5aps making a difference. It's broken. Scissor beats rock better than paper. End of story.

Remove 5aps and:

PvE will change drastically back to normal.
PvP will remain about the same, but scissor won't be able to wtfpwn in rare cases.

win+win

No it does not answer my question. How can you consider something to be OP when you only consider a certain situation and under certain criteria that benefits that weapon?

I don't know how else to explain it, so I'll relate it to a certain fps. Certain people always seem to think AWPs are OP, because they're one hit kills. In your situation, you would consider this OP, because the damage is OP. One hit kills? OMG! But what people fail to understand, is the gun carries a big delay in shooting one shot to the next, the person must stand absolutely still while shooting to maintain accuracy, the gun lacks burst fire so in face of multiple enemies or when the enemy is bhopping it makes it very hard to use, and it makes you move generally slower. It also has no crosshair when unscoped, which makes it harder to use for most of the gaming population. Would you consider an AWP OP? Even when it carries certain disadvantages that make you easy prey for people? When you're considering the usefulness of a gun, it's often practical to not only look at the bullet size, but the other capabilities as well.

How can you consider something to be OP when it only performs so well under certain criteria in certain situations? Does this make BIDS OP? You saw the ss of that wizard hitting 140k on an endgame barb. Is that OP? Or those ss of wizards tossing BIDS on a cata and 30 people dropping around it? Is that OP? I don't see how this is any different from 5 aps, when it's so highly situational where it can be considered "OP".

And no, you didn't say wizards suck in PVP in this particular post. But the general connotation in your every post is that wizards are at a disadvantage to every class in one category or another. Which, funny enough, exactly describes BMs pre-fist era.

Have you seen BM PVP before fists came out? Where the endgame weapon was the TT90 zerk axe, and the only way to kill people was to hope for a zerk crit? And a lot of times it didn't even work, even on classes like a wizard?

When you suggest to remove 5 aps, what are you actually suggesting? Lowering the cap of the attack speed? Adjusting how interval works? Or removing interval altogether? What are you actually trying to say?

i like how he says 5aps is BARELY used. who cares 3.33 attacks in 1 seconds?
thats enuff.
i dont know about u but BMS here just stunlock if for some reason u get out and seal them they occult and start over.

if seal prevented them from occult with there 100% stun genie then it would be different

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

No it does not answer my question. How can you consider something to be OP when you only consider a certain situation and under certain criteria that benefits that weapon?

Because removing it won't change most of PvP at all -- and in cases target stays still, DPS is balanced as well for other classes. So yea it's OP.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

I don't know how else to explain it, so I'll relate it to a certain fps. Certain people always seem to think AWPs are OP, because they're one hit kills. In your situation, you would consider this OP, because the damage is OP. One hit kills? OMG! But what people fail to understand, is the gun carries a big delay in shooting one shot to the next, the person must stand absolutely still while shooting to maintain accuracy, the gun lacks burst fire so in face of multiple enemies or when the enemy is bhopping it makes it very hard to use, and it makes you move generally slower. It also has no crosshair when unscoped, which makes it harder to use for most of the gaming population. Would you consider an AWP OP? Even when it carries certain disadvantages that make you easy prey for people? When you're considering the usefulness of a gun, it's often practical to not only look at the bullet size, but the other capabilities as well.

To be fair, FPS balance is differently, because it requires player reflexes. AWP is, however, a very powerful gun... why do you think it costs so much. As far as I know, 5aps does NOT cost chi, coordination, or anything close to a big cost, like a BIDS combo with debuffs and amps and whatever.

Then again, the PSG is even more OP if you have godly reflexes and headshot all the time. Or if you use a bot. b:laugh

Either way, 5aps is a GAME MECHANIC, not based on anything like that. There's nothing you can do to outDPS it... and in PvP, nothing for you to be saved when you are stunned except immunity -- which, again, PROVES THE POINT that it is OP, more like that it deals too much damage. I mean immunity works against GM fists too, and you may kill him before he reaches you, does that make them not OP? Since, you know, you can kill them some times?

Are you serious?

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Have you seen BM PVP before fists came out? Where the endgame weapon was the TT90 zerk axe, and the only way to kill people was to hope for a zerk crit? And a lot of times it didn't even work, even on classes like a wizard?

Yea because BMs are a support class. If you want to kill as good as a wiz then give wizards support skills, amps, fast stuns, etc. b:angry

Wizard is replaceable also in many instances even with no -interval, but a BM is much more useful in say, Rebirth. But ofc BMs want to be more useful everywhere. Taking down cata barbs, support, PvE, 1v1, you name it.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

When you suggest to remove 5 aps, what are you actually suggesting? Lowering the cap of the attack speed? Adjusting how interval works? Or removing interval altogether? What are you actually trying to say?

Removing interval or making it work like +5% attack speed (max around +50%) with all the equips and stuff.

And I have no problem with removing -channel either... even though it sucks (i.e -50% channel is like +50% attack speed, due to casting times... NOT +100% attack speed). I just don't see why endgame should be so different than pre-endgame (i.e below lvl90), why **** with balance just like that? I think when they made "moar speed" they forgot you upgrade weapons too for "moar damage".

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Do you realize why fists were considered garbage before interval? Because they lacked sufficient DPS to outdps a charm, even when it's on a wizard. You can't kill anyone with that, even if you hold them in a 30 second stunlock. Best bet is smashing them with zerk axes and hope one day you'll land a zerk crit and bypass their charm. Wonderful eh?

Ah, that sure does bring memories even though I'm going offtopic a bit. It was fun to see axe BMs trying to kill something with axes when others killed them. The reason was that in China, people had 3.33 aps natural years before we did. Tome + farmed Deicides + farmed Trophy Mode cape + TT99 set LA and HA bonus. It wasn't easy but it was possible.

Heaven's Flame + Myriad Sword Stance is a stupid combo that does nothing except waste 4 sparks. They're support skills for you guys, the DDs.

Just because we can't outdps charms with base interval doesn't mean you can't bypass charms with magic.

Without fists, we can't kill through charms, period. Unless its a zerk crit.

I'm just going to leave it at that. Our DPH capability isn't even comparable to yours. That's why bypassing charms is a viable option for you. Our damage modifiers are significantly smaller, and no matter how we amp it, it's still the same. We're still praying for a zerk crit.

And that's why we need -interval. Change it to percentage based, sure. I'll be happy with that. That'll force BMs to cancel cast stuff like cyclone heel and drake breath bash to amp up their damage. I think that'd be great.

But totally removing it? You haven't seen how pitiful it is PVPing with axes. Unless you have heavily refined nirvana axes.

Just as a side note, somebody in our first dominant faction, Conqueror once said something along the lines of 'We planned it ahead. We have the highest concentration of mages, and that's why we own in TW'. Just some food for thought.

And on that note, I think that'll be it. I don't think anything I say further will convince you, and the same for you. I'll respect your opinion and leave it at that.

All in all, I'm in support of changing it to a percentage based system. You guys will still need PVE balance, but it'll be better all around. I'm just against totally removing it.

on the 5 aps op topic

think i argued this a few months ago..main oponent now goes around happily killing bm's with ease if you beleive her posts in the "who cant kill us thread"

its not op due to

range

damage scale vs def (past a refine point wizzie def scales faster than claw damage or even dagger damage)

range

3.33 aps will not kill a = gear wizzie over the space of any 1 stun and most wizzies have 2 atntistuns on geni and vac pots 4 aps = lost m def

range

and did i mention range?

b:surrender the bm vs wizzie win/loss ratio is bad enough in my sims of = gear toons that im planing to use this ton at 5 aps to farm me a pk wizze (9 to 1 in the wizzies favor last i ran it)thus why im still in QQ land

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Heaven's Flame + Myriad Sword Stance is a stupid combo that does nothing except waste 4 sparks. They're support skills for you guys, the DDs.

Regardless it's gonna hit harder than one of our ultis. Yes of course it's gonna waste a lot of sparks, but it can bypass charms especially on squishies. But I think you don't think you can take down barbs 1v1 -- even wizards have trouble with that despite elemental advantage against their armor.

And the combo I described was just the top off my head obviously it can be a bit inadequate.

Of course I'm talking in respect to a balanced game without 5aps.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

But totally removing it? You haven't seen how pitiful it is PVPing with axes. Unless you have heavily refined nirvana axes.

A mage needs a highly refined weapon to bypass charms on targets he's supposed to kill, mostly HA ppl. That's no excuse. :P

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

nope i dont mix up the skills test it yourself use fow in a duel and then use sutra with lets say gush and pyro you will notice that your enemy can start counterattacking after the gush hit it

The seal does last for 5 seconds, but you are stuck casting the skill for 2 seconds into that.. so you have 3 seconds left to atk while they cannot.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yep that's the idea but it didnt work that way when i tested it with my psychic friend
with sutra( glacial snare / sandstorm) 1.8cast + 1.5 = 3.3s cast both hits should be within the duration of FoW but what happened was that after my glacial hit the seal effect was gone even if the duration should have sealed the target for another 1.7s but in fact he was able to cast a defense spell.( and im not talking about dmg reflects from passive skills). The only reason that could explain would be a "klicking" delay combined with server lag

greetz harm0wnie

But I have to wonder if you used:

sutra, force of will, glacial snare, sandstorm

or

force of will, sutra, glacial snare, sandstorm

And, how much ping did you have?

And, did you use a macro for the non-sutra skills? (This might add your ping to your casting time?)

Personally, I think you lose twice your ping time (typically) between sutra and your next skill. If you start your skill before 1 server round trip (which seems to take a bit longer than your ping because of server processing delays), your client does not know that it is allowed to use the skill and it takes full channelling time, and then you need trip to the server for your next skill... and if you throw in some time for reflexes, twice your ping is a plausible approximation for how long you need.

(In my opinion: They SHOULD fix this so that when your client starts channeling a skill for you after you have used sutra and the server sends a message back saying that sutra started that that spell goes off instantly. (This would be a sort of special interrupt and restart on your spell, which should also restart the containing macro wherever you were in it, and given how poorly sutra works with macros I imagine they tried to implement it this way but then got lost in the message passing somewhere and gave up.))

However, you should not ever have to care about casting time on whatever your last spell is.