Should I keep -chan gear?
Comments
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In all honesty my veno still uses the mantle, but that's because I can get away with not making her all out with -int, and that I've had too many alts to supply gear with, which has been extremely tough and costly. Just my personal view, but getting 4 minion shells isn't terribly difficult, nor is antennas, so maybe both -chan and -int gold wrists? Or maybe old sea captain sleeves, then TT99 AA wrists, with a 90 gold -int wrist? It means you won't be full HA obviously, but I also know how sucky it can be when you go up against magic mobs and the benefit of that extra mdef. I also forgot you're 92. My veno is 100 so had the luxury of statting out most +stat gear that's a bit more required at your level.Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »Im in a HA set 100% of the time. I don't have an arcane set, and probably wont be planning to get one. Anyways, the interval cape is nice, but foxform is something i use just as much as human form. So interval is just as important as channeling to me, but I dont see myself getting 2.22 atk/. If it was any, it would just be int sleeves and the cape, but idk if that would make a bit of a difference. That's why I was wondering about the chan cape.... Or I could just get the +phys def cape, since i love my p def. (But the main thing is TT90 cape give 9 str dex and mag even, while event capes give 6-7 of each. So, the TT90 cape would still optimize my stats better)0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »In all honesty my veno still uses the mantle, but that's because I can get away with not making her all out with -int, and that I've had too many alts to supply gear with, which has been extremely tough and costly. Just my personal view, but getting 4 minion shells isn't terribly difficult, nor is antennas, so maybe both -chan and -int gold wrists? Or maybe old sea captain sleeves, then TT99 AA wrists, with a 90 gold -int wrist? It means you won't be full HA obviously, but I also know how sucky it can be when you go up against magic mobs and the benefit of that extra mdef. I also forgot you're 92. My veno is 100 so had the luxury of statting out most +stat gear that's a bit more required at your level.
well, my ortaments arent the best, but I am lucky enough to be using a +5 wep and sitting in TT90 HA with +3 refines. Planning as you go is the key though. I do have old sleeves of sea capt, that i plan to use till i get my TT99 sleeves, and then ill also get the AA belt so i can have the chan bonus. If i was to get int, the only part i was planning to get was the TT90 gold sleeves. but that's what im asking... does 0.1 int make a noticeable difference?>.<0 -
It's noticeable.Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »well, my ortaments arent the best, but I am lucky enough to be using a +5 wep and sitting in TT90 HA with +3 refines. Planning as you go is the key though. I do have old sleeves of sea capt, that i plan to use till i get my TT99 sleeves, and then ill also get the AA belt so i can have the chan bonus. If i was to get int, the only part i was planning to get was the TT90 gold sleeves. but that's what im asking... does 0.1 int make a noticeable difference?
If you wanna test it, try using, say, a pataka, switch back to FF, attack things. Then put on a magic sword, then attack things again in FF. That's something like 1.0 to 1.25 and should be noticeable as well. Of course, I spent a lot of time attacking in fox form too before getting -int bonus for sleeves and tome so the difference was especially easy to notice. However, for the belt, I'd just use a -6 channeling belt as both will be AA and you'll get more than -3% channel from gear bonus. Not sure if you're using an SDP for +str but I sure wish there was a +str 5% neck piece. b:chuckle
The TT99 wrists don't sound half bad though. Definitely go with -int wrists for 90 regardless of what you do with your wrists for -chan. The only downside is if you're like me and have a BM who constantly switched between axes/fists and don't really wanna do that on a veno too (switching rings+wrists+wep+others can kinda get tedious after a while).0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »It's noticeable.
If you wanna test it, try using, say, a pataka, switch back to FF, attack things. Then put on a magic sword, then attack things again in FF. That's something like 1.0 to 1.25 and should be noticeable as well. Of course, I spent a lot of time attacking in fox form too before getting -int bonus for sleeves and tome so the difference was especially easy to notice. However, for the belt, I'd just use a -6 channeling belt as both will be AA and you'll get more than -3% channel from gear bonus. Not sure if you're using an SDP for +str but I sure wish there was a +str 5% neck piece. b:chuckle
The TT99 wrists don't sound half bad though. Definitely go with -int wrists for 90 regardless of what you do with your wrists for -chan. The only downside is if you're like me and have a BM who constantly switched between axes/fists and don't really wanna do that on a veno too (switching rings+wrists+wep+others can kinda get tedious after a while).
Well I did actually test it once with a pataka and glaive(my wep, still same atk/s as magic sword though) I didnt really see the difference, but maybe i wasnt looking hard enough. And yes, I am using a SDP for str, And also shopping for an oht chan belt that i can use till my TT99 counterpart. I do regularly switch out magic rings and might rings, but thats the only thing i switch. I was planning on getting the lunar rings, but... im pretty picky and when i switch to might rings, i dont want to lose 500 p def. lmao.>.<0 -
Yay for not paying attention to my own posts..
On this part:
.. boy genius actually meant a 5% +str elemental def necklace like Swindler's + str, instead of only SDP with pdef.Not sure if you're using an SDP for +str but I sure wish there was a +str 5% neck piece.
Just an idea to throw out there, but for switching rings, keep the SDP for your str bonus, then perhaps get one or two Seal of Eternal Solitude's -- if Sanctuary's prices are anywhere near HT's you should be able to get more than two for the price of one SOF:C. If I recall correctly, they have bonus +100 to both magic and phys attacks, 3% crit, vit and dex bonuses (which helps if you need more dex or just to attain another crit), and refines decently for magic def. At your level you'll likely be coming across diminishing returns on your pdef, particularly in fox form when buffed, so that little pdef of 500 shouldn't be doing too much to your actual % reduction (likely less than 1% in fox form, and perhaps 1 or 2% in human), and when out of fox form you'll likely be throwing scarabs anyways so would likely switch to channeling.Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »Well I did actually test it once with a pataka and glaive(my wep, still same atk/s as magic sword though) I didnt really see the difference, but maybe i wasnt looking hard enough. And yes, I am using a SDP for str, And also shopping for an oht chan belt that i can use till my TT99 counterpart. I do regularly switch out magic rings and might rings, but thats the only thing i switch. I was planning on getting the lunar rings, but... im pretty picky and when i switch to might rings, i dont want to lose 500 p def. lmao.
Just throwing out some ideas there.0 -
On this part:
.. boy genius actually meant a 5% +str elemental def necklace like Swindler's + str, instead of only SDP with pdef.
Lol yea didnt realize you meant that, but that would be nice.Just an idea to throw out there, but for switching rings, keep the SDP for your str bonus, then perhaps get one or two Seal of Eternal Solitude's -- if Sanctuary's prices are anywhere near HT's you should be able to get more than two for the price of one SOF:C. If I recall correctly, they have bonus +100 to both magic and phys attacks, 3% crit, vit and dex bonuses (which helps if you need more dex or just to attain another crit), and refines decently for magic def. At your level you'll likely be coming across diminishing returns on your pdef, particularly in fox form when buffed, so that little pdef of 500 shouldn't be doing too much to your actual % reduction (likely less than 1% in fox form, and perhaps 1 or 2% in human), and when out of fox form you'll likely be throwing scarabs anyways so would likely switch to channeling.
Just throwing out some ideas there.
COA rings are around 13m each on sanc. around the same price as the frost magic rings are too. frost p attack rings are 7-8m, and lunar rings are 25-30m. I'm thinking about the COA rings cause they seem nice.... Was originally going to go with the chan rings, but theres lots of oht rings with -6% chan on them that are far cheaper than the frost or lunar rings. The more ive been playing, I'm coming to find out that channeling doesnt mean as much to me as i thought it did. So if channeling was something i felt i needed, i could just get the cheap oht rings. But yea, it is a pain having to switch between p attack and m attack rings, and COA rings can be used for both. I am having 2nd thoughts about the TT99 belt and sleeves though, cause the bonus is just gonna give you 12% chan total on those 2 pieces... and again, you could still just use sleeves of sea captain and a -6% chan belt. would definately be cheaper than getting a bunch of TT99 gold mats.>.<0 -
Heavy venos don't need elemental defense ornaments. Unlike barbs and BMs who are stuck with heavy armor and whose only way to improve mdef is via ornaments, heavy venos can also wear arcane armor. So if we ever need more mdef, we can just swap a piece of heavy armor for arcane, instead of having to swap a pdef ornament for an mdef ornament.JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: ».. boy genius actually meant a 5% +str elemental def necklace like Swindler's + str, instead of only SDP with pdef.
In fact, using mdef ornaments could actually be considered a negative because it limits the max pdef we can attain. Yeah it increases the max mdef we can attain, but in that config we're just a caster veno with gimpy mag, which is not the point of the build. The ornaments have slightly better conversion efficiency of pdef to mdef (100% vs. 78%), but for small to moderate amounts of mdef I don't consider that a worthwhile tradeoff compared to the lowered max potential pdef.
The dex helps with the HA stat requirement, and the 3% crit is welcome for PvP. But unless you just want one equipment set you don't have to swap (again, useful for PvP), I don't think those rings are worth it for the price.anywhere near HT's you should be able to get more than two for the price of one SOF:C. If I recall correctly, they have bonus +100 to both magic and phys attacks, 3% crit, vit and dex bonuses (which helps if you need more dex or just to attain another crit), and refines decently for magic def.
At level 80 when you can first use them, they're about the best you can get. But by 88 and definitely by 94 you should be able to get rings with much better patk or matk. Something around 130+ patk or matk is pretty easy to find for 100-200k. The extra 60 patk from two of those rings compared to 2x Eternal Solitude combined with a +5 TT90 weapon represents a 10% increase in damage, vs just 6% for the 2x 3% crit. For matk the increase is less due to weapons having higher matk, but for casting outside of PvP, you generally want less crit% to avoid pulling aggro.
And like I mentioned above, the fact that they refine for mdef instead of pdef could actually be considered a negative for a heavy veno.
There is no diminishing returns for pdef. Going from 1000 pdef to 1500 pdef increases your survival time by just as much as going from 20k pdef to 20.5k pdef. If you look at % damage reduction, there appears to be diminishing returns. But you have to remember that what matters is (1 - DR), the damage transmitted. Once you do that, the diminishing returns disappears and it's linear, just like hp.At your level you'll likely be coming across diminishing returns on your pdef, particularly in fox form when buffed, so that little pdef of 500 shouldn't be doing too much to your actual % reduction (likely less than 1% in fox form, and perhaps 1 or 2% in human),
Now, whether the percentage gain from increasing pdef by that amount is worth it relative to channel is a different question. Just like going from 1000 hp to 500 hp is a pretty substantial improvement while going from 20k hp to 20.5k is not, the same is true of pdef or any other linear stat.0 -
Solandri, I have a 100 HA/AA sage veno, so I'm aware you can switch armors. xD
It was pointed out for more convenience's sake to not have to armor switch as much, as I iterated in a previous post I already did enough switching on other chars to want to do that on my veno too, on top of weapon, rings, and belt.
About phys def diminishing returns, the ONLY diminishing returns means is referring to the amount of phys def correlating to the amount of % reduction. I think you mentioned this but it looks like you heavily misinterpreted a whole lot of my post. The 3% crit rings would indeed be worth it with 14-16 vit, which a HA veno at MHTI's level might be in need of some more HP, plus the 3% crit is particularly useful in fox form, and the dex more for crit. I don't see the SOF:C anywhere near as useful, or even the school ring. 12-13m on their server isn't so bad.0 -
You missed my point. The amount of pdef correlating to % reduction is meaningless. The damage that's reduced disappears and affects nothing. The only thing which matters is damage transmitted. And if you compare the ratio of pdef to damage transmitted, there is no diminishing returns.JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »About phys def diminishing returns, the ONLY diminishing returns means is referring to the amount of phys def correlating to the amount of % reduction.
Like I said, starting with a baseline of +100 patk on each ring, a pair of good OHT rings for 100-200k each should easily be able to boost your DPS by ~10%. The Eternal Solitude rings only yield 6% (7% if the extra 14-16 dex gets you over a multiple of 20). The extra vit and the saved hassle of not swapping rings vs the massively higher cost might or might not make it worth it. It's up to each player to decide.I think you mentioned this but it looks like you heavily misinterpreted a whole lot of my post. The 3% crit rings would indeed be worth it with 14-16 vit, which a HA veno at MHTI's level might be in need of some more HP, plus the 3% crit is particularly useful in fox form, and the dex more for crit. I don't see the SOF:C anywhere near as useful, or even the school ring. 12-13m on their server isn't so bad.
I agree with you though that the SOF:C is worse than the Eternal Solitude. No argument there.0 -
Since you're a guy of testing, do you have a test to show that percent reduction isn't actually percent reduction, at least, before any other modifiers afterward? Or maybe you're not being clear. I certainly hope you're not saying there isn't diminishing returns concerning pdef and relative survivability.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »You missed my point. The amount of pdef correlating to % reduction is meaningless. The damage that's reduced disappears and affects nothing. The only thing which matters is damage transmitted. And if you compare the ratio of pdef to damage transmitted, there is no diminishing returns.0 -
I'm pretty sure I missed this, but what are you talking about Janus when you use abbreviations like "SOF:C"?
Edit:nvm, just realized you guys were talking about sign of frost:chaos>.<0 -
I apologize if I'm not being clear, but I can't think of any clearer way to say it. The figure that affects your survivability is not damage reduction. It's damage transmitted, which is (1-DR).JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Since you're a guy of testing, do you have a test to show that percent reduction isn't actually percent reduction, at least, before any other modifiers afterward? Or maybe you're not being clear.- Say you went from 0% DR to 50% DR. That's an increase of 50% DR, which doubles your survival against an opponent.
- Now say you went from 80% DR to 90% DR. That's an increase of 10% DR, but it also doubles your survival against an opponent.
How can both a 50% increase and 10% increase result in the same doubling of your survivability? It's because DR isn't the figure you should be looking at. Damage Transmitted, or DT = 1-DR is what you want.- Going from 100% DT to 50% DT is a 50%/100% = 0.5 = 50% decrease in DT.
- Going from 20% DT to 10% DT is a 10%/20% = 0.5 = 50% decrease in DT.
And hence both double your survivability.
If you're talking about diminishing returns, then you are by definition talking about absolute survivability, not relative. Diminishing returns is defined as adding one more unit of input yielding less and less output as the input gets higher. That is, the relationship between input and output is not a straight line.I certainly hope you're not saying there isn't diminishing returns concerning pdef and relative survivability.
This is not the case for hp nor pdef. Adding 500 hp increases how much damage you can take til dead by the same amount whether you started with 1k hp or 20k hp. Likewise, adding 500 pdef increases how much damage you can take til dead by the same amount whether you started with 1k pdef or 20k pdef.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=8949892
Now, if you're speaking about relative survivability, then of course you're right. 500 hp or 500 pdef added to 1k yields a 50% improvement in survivability, while 500 added to 20k yields only a 2.5% improvement. But that's not diminishing returns, it's relative improvement.
To claim that it's diminishing returns would be like claiming a $1 bill is less valuable when put on top of a stack of $100 than when put on top of a stack of $10. A $1 increase is a smaller relative improvement to $100 than to $10. But there is no diminishing returns so it's still worth $1 in both cases.0 -
_Surreal_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have 3 weapons that I use: blade of the red dust 2 socket +7, i use this for bosses because of the -chan. But for pvp i get rid of all my channel gear and go for crit and magic attack.
I would say get rid of the sea captain sleeves at 90 and find some cheap -chan OHT sleeves because there are a **** load of good ones out there...there are even about 4-5 -9 channel sleeves on HT atm.
The only Veno wiser than me in my faction says he uses his channeling weapon when channeling and switches to a crit weapon before it finishes. :O
And that is a great analogy Solandri. Keep up the good work.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
^Thats some mighty fast switching.0
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Silest - Sanctuary wrote: »^Thats some mighty fast switching.
Yea, it helps if you don't lag.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
The only Veno wiser than me in my faction says he uses his channeling weapon when channeling and switches to a crit weapon before it finishes. :O
And that is a great analogy Solandri. Keep up the good work.
psh noob with good gearb:chucklewho is that veno?TheEmpire
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my opinion is, that only HA/LA venos should focus on any kind of - channel. reason being. it only comes on elemental protection gear when not on rings. this is something both lack, also the -channel always helps make up for their lesser damage. my theory is that arcane venos already have a healthy damage output, and would better be suited wearing defensive equipment.0
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Lenn_ - Sanctuary wrote: »my opinion is, that only HA/LA venos should focus on any kind of - channel. reason being. it only comes on elemental protection gear when not on rings. this is something both lack, also the -channel always helps make up for their lesser damage. my theory is that arcane venos already have a healthy damage output, and would better be suited wearing defensive equipment.
That defensive equipment is really only needed about 2% of the time in PvE and runs comparatively cheap. Inventory extension and some swap equips work well.
*****
On another post:
3 Weapons? -That seems like it would be expensive for refines on all 3 when you could just refine 1. Also, when we're killing in PvP typically with 2-3 hits (for casters), why would you want to take a chance on that 1-3% extra crit helping (1/~33) times rather than solid -ch?Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
i prefer to maintain 5k+ def at all times in caster form, you never know when emergencies may occur. there also quite a number of AOE bosses in commonly ran instances that would be better suited to defense relegated armor.0
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Lenn_ - Sanctuary wrote: »my opinion is, that only HA/LA venos should focus on any kind of - channel. reason being. it only comes on elemental protection gear when not on rings. this is something both lack, also the -channel always helps make up for their lesser damage. my theory is that arcane venos already have a healthy damage output, and would better be suited wearing defensive equipment.
I got 7.5k elemental defense across the board. I'm arcane, but I want all the speed I can get :P.0 -
meh, wear 2 channel rings, possibly cape, and a weapon. youll have a fine difference0
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That defensive equipment is really only needed about 2% of the time in PvE and runs comparatively cheap. Inventory extension and some swap equips work well.
*****
On another post:
3 Weapons? -That seems like it would be expensive for refines on all 3 when you could just refine 1. Also, when we're killing in PvP typically with 2-3 hits (for casters), why would you want to take a chance on that 1-3% extra crit helping (1/~33) times rather than solid -ch?
-6% chan really isnt going to help that much since i only have -12% without the wep, i would rather take the chance to crit.TheEmpire
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unless you're LA/HA, crit stacking is stupid on an arcane, the amount you can get has limited growth that plateaus and decays in benefit as you get more, whereas some extra channel is always helpful. (though i find it dumb to put -chan on a class with little to no cast times at all)0
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