Revise the forum rules

Shivalia - Lost City
Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
edited September 2010 in Suggestion Box
Edit: This is NOT referring to Grippieluver's suggested rules sticky thread. This is referring to the 'Rules of Conduct' thread I linked to in the first paragraph.

I've come upon this a lot actually, just recently. At first glace the forum rules seem straightforward and easy enough to understand, but with so many people lately quoting rules and such, its come to my attention that they aren't quite as clear as I thought and some can be misinterpreted. This comes mainly from the 'definitions' portion of the posted rules here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=63291

"Hijacking: Taking control of another person's post to forward your own agenda will result in having your posts removed from that thread. Repeated hijackings can result in a ban from the forums/game."

At first this seems straightforward. But even I'm confused by reading it. First thought, I believed Hijacking was basically hacking of accounts. But here it says to take control of another person's post, not account to use it to post. Perhaps an example is in order? I personally can't think of what that may mean other than something like causing a fight over something someone said that's irrelevant to the main point of the topic. Edit: Thanks to Jellytoast, this one has now been explained to me. This should definitely be modified in the Codes of Conduct, since its far too vague. In short: "Trying to use an unrelated thread to post and gain answers instead of searching or posting a new thread."

"Necromancy: Any thread over one month (30 days) old is considered to be a dead thread. Posting in a dead (necro) thread will cause it to be locked. Repeated posting of dead threads can result in a ban from forums/game."

Alright, so everyone knows what necro is. Almost everyone now, anyway, thanks to the ever so friendly people who just love to post 'Don't necro! b:angry' to all the newbies. Given, they should have read the rules, but what can you do? Nothing to get angry at them for. Just politely inform them. :/ Anyway, here we could use a couple things cleared up. Any thread over a month old is considered dead. Does this mean one month from the first post, or last? I've honestly never seen any threads that are actually older than 30 days and continuously posted on being closed. Please clarify that it is for certain one way or the other. Secondly, what is repeated posting of dead threads? Is this referring to restarting them on a new thread, or to going around posting on every dead thread causing many necros? I have a strong feeling its the latter of the two definitions. Again, please clarify.

"Trolling: Attempts to incite others to anger, frustration or similar; also attempts to incite flaming."

The only thing I can say about this one, is that in my opinion, it should be enforced much more than it is. Locking threads isn't helping. The metaphor I like to use for how things have become here is: Trolls are like young children put behind the child-gate to keep them out of the kitchen and away from the cookies. They climb over the gate and get a cookie and the mods just take away the cookie, pick them up and put them back over the gate. And then they do it all over again, referencing, of course, to mods closing threads because of the tolling and flaming and how the trolls just move on to the next thread to cause the same thing. This comes from me personally being trolled and flamed by the same person continuously and nothing ever seeming to be done about it. Not to mention seeing those very same people doing the exact same thing on many many other threads.


"Off topic: Please do not stray from the topic stated within the body of the thread by its creator. Threads that have gone off that topic will be edited, split or locked. Threads are posted in the wrong section will be moved. Threads that are created with no purpose other than to spam will be taken off of the forum."

This one's obvious, but I still look for the day when spam threads will actually be removed. There's too many 'Oh, hai b:bye' threads going on out there. Those ones that literally say nothing else? You know the ones.

"Stickies: Stickies are there to help you. Please read them before you ask a question. It is possible that the answer you seek has already been posted in a sticky thread."

Please do. Even I'm new to forums, this being the first I've been involved in, and while I wasn't aware of what stickies even are, they are there for a good reason. I do admit some of them are a little too long for my tastes, and some aren't really too straightforward (for instance the one these rules are posted on.) but they are still helpful, and it would be able to stop a lot of the complaints that people bring up that posters are breaking the rules and whatnot. Other than that, a quick explanation of what stickies are would be helpful to new people. "A sticky is a thread that is permanently posted to the beginning of a forum subtopic. It is there as it contains important information that a first time forum-goer could read to answer their existing questions or to brush up on forum rules and learn about events and changes to the game." Something like that would be nice.

I believe I've finished what I have to say about this. I hope the mods take this idea to heart in hopes that we can have a bit less flaming over what the rules are and make the forums a little better of a place by being able to understand each other better.

P.S. Sorry to poor Spoons who originally wrote these definitions. b:surrender You were a great mod, no doubt, but you failed to give enough detail. :<
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Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
Post edited by Shivalia - Lost City on

Comments

  • Asmodiel - Heavens Tear
    Asmodiel - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,442 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    <Not going to quote due to long post, but consider it quoted between " and ">

    I agree on parts like the necro stuff, if someone has a good idea, but it got closed because of either trolling/necroing/flaming/other... , it should be allowed to revive it to make the suggestion open again for discussion.
    "One of the most important factors, not only in military matters but in life as a whole, is ... the ability to direct one's whole energies towards the fulfillment of a particular task." - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

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  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    <Not going to quote due to long post, but consider it quoted between " and ">

    I agree on parts like the necro stuff, if someone has a good idea, but it got closed because of either trolling/necroing/flaming/other... , it should be allowed to revive it to make the suggestion open again for discussion.

    I agree with the initial thought, but if that's the reason for it getting closed, I can see why the mods would see it would just cause it to start all over again. b:surrender So that's a tough one. It wouldn't be an issue if they actually took action against the people who are causing the trolling/flaming and such. If they did that, we could have things much better. Its more like what they're doing about these people is the trolls are young children put behind the child-gate to keep them out of the kitchen and away from the cookies. They climb over the gate and get a cookie and the mods just take away the cookie, pick them up and put them back over the gate. And then they do it all over again.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
  • Asmodiel - Heavens Tear
    Asmodiel - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,442 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Well, flaming could start not because of the OP's thread, but due to someone being ticked of for any or no reason and just starts to flame....in a thread which might contain a good idea (which will then ofc be ignored due to the flaming.)
    "One of the most important factors, not only in military matters but in life as a whole, is ... the ability to direct one's whole energies towards the fulfillment of a particular task." - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

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  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Well, flaming could start not because of the OP's thread, but due to someone being ticked of for any or no reason and just starts to flame....in a thread which might contain a good idea (which will then ofc be ignored due to the flaming.)

    That is true. Good point.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Well, flaming could start not because of the OP's thread, but due to someone being ticked of for any or no reason and just starts to flame....in a thread which might contain a good idea (which will then ofc be ignored due to the flaming.)

    Lies, it be possible that a thread could be made to be flame bait.
    (o.O)'
    darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
    Hawk:Do this. closing thread
    frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
    Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
    Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
    LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
    Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
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  • Asmodiel - Heavens Tear
    Asmodiel - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,442 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Lies, it be possible that a thread could be made to be flame bait.
    (o.O)'

    I never said that it is ALWAYS because of some ticked off moron, it's just a possibility
    "One of the most important factors, not only in military matters but in life as a whole, is ... the ability to direct one's whole energies towards the fulfillment of a particular task." - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

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  • Scarlettie - Sanctuary
    Scarlettie - Sanctuary Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Hear hear, I am all for this, lets get a mod to lock the top topic about the rules and get them adjusted so that they are more "official"
  • vuce
    vuce Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    The official rules thread does definitely need to be revised. Also its title needs to be changed aswel. Official-- "Suggested" rules of Suggestion Box. The word suggested in the title may seem to some that these rules are just suggested for you to use not actually have to be followed by the book.

    Also the rules thread needs to be in its own locked thread ( Official Forum Rules ) so it cannot be changed by none moderators and another thread created for suggestions ( Forum Rules Suggestions ). If a suggesiton is liked within the Forum Rules Suggestion thread then an official GM can add this to the Official Forum Rule thread.This way none GM members cannot change the rules as they see fit.

    I also think some rules need to removed. I'm still to this day not sure why nercoing a thread is such a bad thing. Players come and go, if a new player comes in and wants to discuss an old topic that they have found, why should they not have the right to do so? Just because a thread is old doesn't make it any less valid. It is not like the world is going to fall in if fresh discussion is made in the old thread. This also prevents reposting of the same topic as people want to be heard but don't want to necro.
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I never said that it is ALWAYS because of some ticked off moron, it's just a possibility

    It also be possible to flame bait unintentionally.
    b:avoid
    darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
    Hawk:Do this. closing thread
    frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
    Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
    Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
    LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
    Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
    Waiting for...Hamster Packs!
    58% chance to get tokens
    41% chance to get an all class pet hamster....but they has already been freed by the magic hamster.
    1% chance to get ban hamstered with the message "Hamsters United!"
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    vuce wrote: »
    The official rules thread does definitely need to be revised. Also its title needs to be changed aswel. Official-- "Suggested" rules of Suggestion Box. The word suggested in the title may seem to some that these rules are just suggested for you to use not actually have to be followed by the book.

    Also the rules thread needs to be in its own locked thread ( Official Forum Rules ) so it cannot be changed by none moderators and another thread created for suggestions ( Forum Rules Suggestions ). If a suggesiton is liked within the Forum Rules Suggestion thread then an official GM can add this to the Official Forum Rule thread.This way none GM members cannot change the rules as they see fit.

    I also think some rules need to removed. I'm still to this day not sure why nercoing a thread is such a bad thing. Players come and go, if a new player comes in and wants to discuss an old topic that they have found, why should they not have the right to do so? Just because a thread is old doesn't make it any less valid. It is not like the world is going to fall in if fresh discussion is made in the old thread. This also prevents reposting of the same topic as people want to be heard but don't want to necro.

    I think you're mistaking what I referring to.. I am talking about the official rules, not Grippie's suggested thread.

    I believe I have read a mod say somewhere that they would rather have someone make a new thread on a topic that's not been brought up in a while and would result in a necro if they posted on the old thread. I don't know this for certain, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing it.
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    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
  • vuce
    vuce Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I think you're mistaking what I referring to.. I am talking about the official rules, not Grippie's suggested thread.

    I believe I have read a mod say somewhere that they would rather have someone make a new thread on a topic that's not been brought up in a while and would result in a necro. I don't know this for certain, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing it.

    oh ok so what you're saying Grippies rules aren't official?
  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    vuce wrote: »
    oh ok so what you're saying Grippies rules aren't official?

    What I'm saying is I've not even mentioned ANYTHING about Grippie's post. Regardless, hers is regarding suggestion threads specifically. I am referring to the actual Mods' post of the Rules of Conduct that I linked to in the first paragraph of the original post.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
  • vuce
    vuce Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    What I'm saying is I've not even mentioned ANYTHING about Grippie's post. Regardless, hers is regarding suggestion threads specifically. I am referring to the actual Mods' post of the Rules of Conduct that I linked to in the first paragraph of the original post.

    I know that, but I'm adding to the discussion by saying that suggestion box rules need to be changed too, aswel as the Rules of Conduct. They both need revising.
  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    vuce wrote: »
    I know that, but I'm adding to the discussion by saying that suggestion box rules need to be changed too, aswel as the Rules of Conduct. They both need revising.

    While I can understand that, you can let her know that in her thread. I doubt that she would care much what you'd have to say about it here. I'm not trying to say that in a mean way or anything. But if she would listen to you and actually do it, you'd have to bring it up with her. And even with her going through the trouble of making that thread when she did, common sense along with a better set of Rules of Conduct would take care of the problem in itself by being generalized for any type of post, including suggestion box threads. That is, if people would read it. Obviously we will not escape from the issues caused by people not reading the rules in the first place, which we're not escaping even now with her thread there and stickied.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
  • vuce
    vuce Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    While I can understand that, you can let her know that in her thread. I doubt that she would care much what you'd have to say about it here. I'm not trying to say that in a mean way or anything. But if she would listen to you and actually do it, you'd have to bring it up with her. And even with her going through the trouble of making that thread when she did, common sense along with a better set of Rules of Conduct would take care of the problem in itself by being generalized for any type of post, including suggestion box threads. That is, if people would read it. Obviously we will not escape from the issues caused by people not reading the rules in the first place, which we're not escaping even now.

    Well the reason for adding it to this thread is because it has relevence. The two issues are related as they involve forum rules. Instead of making a seperate thread or post I thought I would add it to this discussion as they both deal with forum rules. They both have somewhat of the same rules so if the Code of Conduct thread is changed then so will the suggestions forum. Would seem strange to have one forum section with completely different rules from the rest. That would just cause more confusion.
  • Scarlettie - Sanctuary
    Scarlettie - Sanctuary Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    While I can understand that, you can let her know that in her thread. I doubt that she would care much what you'd have to say about it here. I'm not trying to say that in a mean way or anything. But if she would listen to you and actually do it, you'd have to bring it up with her. And even with her going through the trouble of making that thread when she did, common sense along with a better set of Rules of Conduct would take care of the problem in itself by being generalized for any type of post, including suggestion box threads. That is, if people would read it. Obviously we will not escape from the issues caused by people not reading the rules in the first place, which we're not escaping even now.

    I completely and 100% agree with you on this and was actually going to suggest REMOVING the stickied "rules" as it is confusing and very much unneeded. There are Official rules that the entire board runs under and these are more then sufficient to handle all forums. I came into this forum, read those "official suggested rules" and tried to follow them as much as possible. I stopped right there, I didn't even "bother" to read the Official rules, in fact I thought those "were" the official rules until I actually found and read the real ones. I also believed that Grippie was a Mod/GM/whatever at first because her name was on the "Official Rules thread". This is incredibly confusing to new players and leads to issues like we have been having on the boards since we joined.
  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    vuce wrote: »
    Well the reason for adding it to this thread is because it has relevence. The two issues are related as they involve forum rules. Instead of making a seperate thread or post I thought I would add it to this discussion as they both deal with forum rules. They both have somewhat of the same rules so if the Code of Conduct thread is changed then so will the suggestions forum. Would seem strange to have one forum section with completely different rules from the rest. That would just cause more confusion.

    I understand. And you're right, it would be more confusing. But considering it is the suggestions box, there is a few extra things that could be added specifically for it, which is why I understand why Grippie made that thread in the first place. Pretty much to just go into depth and detail of it. Honestly, I've not been able to bother myself to read all of her thread. Only bits, pieces, and bullet points, so I can't really say what's in there and what's not and whether or not it needs edited. That would be up to those who have read it to decide, such as yourself. So I can't give my two cents on that situation.
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  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I completely and 100% agree with you on this and was actually going to suggest REMOVING the stickied "rules" as it is confusing and very much unneeded. There are Official rules that the entire board runs under and these are more then sufficient to handle all forums. I came into this forum, read those "official suggested rules" and tried to follow them as much as possible. I stopped right there, I didn't even "bother" to read the Official rules, in fact I thought those "were" the official rules until I actually found and read the real ones. I also believed that Grippie was a Mod/GM/whatever at first because her name was on the "Official Rules thread". This is incredibly confusing to new players and leads to issues like we have been having on the boards since we joined.

    Another good point. Some people may not even realize that her thread is specifically made for only the suggestion box.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
  • vuce
    vuce Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I understand. And you're right, it would be more confusing. But considering it is the suggestions box, there is a few extra things that could be added specifically for it, which is why I understand why Grippie made that thread in the first place. Pretty much to just go into depth and detail of it. Honestly, I've not been able to bother myself to read all of her thread. Only bits, pieces, and bullet points, so I can't really say what's in there and what's not and whether or not it needs edited. That would be up to those who have read it to decide, such as yourself. So I can't give my two cents on that situation.

    haha yeah I get ya there. But you make a good point when you say you haven't even fully read it and yet you still posted without fully reading what is suppose to be the official suggestin box rules thread. This again reinforces the fact that it needs to be locked and posted by an official mod so it is taken a little more seriously.
  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    vuce wrote: »
    haha yeah I get ya there. But you make a good point when you say you haven't even fully read it and yet you still posted without fully reading what is suppose to be the official suggestin box rules thread. This again reinforces the fact that it needs to be locked and posted by an official mod so it is taken a little more seriously.

    That's me working off of the common sense and knowledge from the Rules of Conduct. My personal opinion is that we don't even need any specifically for suggestion box. As long as they explain the official rules better and given that people actually read them, then that's all we need. I actually like how the Rules of Conduct are made. They are fast and easy to read, unlike Grippie's long, overdrawn post. All it needs is those revisions to the definitions to make things a little more clear.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
  • vuce
    vuce Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    That's me working off of the common sense and knowledge from the Rules of Conduct. My personal opinion is that we don't even need any specifically for suggestion box. As long as they explain the official rules better and given that people actually read them, then that's all we need. I actually like how the Rules of Conduct are made. They are fast and easy to read, unlike Grippie's long, overdrawn post. All it needs is those revisions to the definitions to make things a little more clear.

    Absolutely, having 2 seperate "official rules" threads is just confusing. I don't want to dis her for her hard work but I do agree that Grippies thread is somewhat long winded and really unnessecery especially when you make the point of " As long as they explain the official rules better and given that people actually read them, then that's all we need. "
  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    vuce wrote: »
    Absolutely, having 2 seperate "official rules" threads is just confusing. I don't want to dis her for her hard work but I do agree that Grippies thread is somewhat long winded and really unnessecery especially when you make the point of " As long as they explain the official rules better and given that people actually read them, then that's all we need. "

    Exactly. She deserves her kudos for her work and caring about the situation. It just hasn't turned out the way she hoped, I think. And the mods could do their part to make it so forum goers don't need to feel like they need to elaborate on the mods' rules themselves to help others.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!
  • Scarlettie - Sanctuary
    Scarlettie - Sanctuary Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Exactly. She deserves her kudos for her work and caring about the situation. It just hasn't turned out the way she hoped, I think. And the mods could do their part to make it so forum goers don't need to feel like they need to elaborate on the mods' rules themselves to help others.

    Yup exactly, we don't need two. I like Grippie, she is intelligent and fun to spar with! b:victory
  • Grippieluver - Lost City
    Grippieluver - Lost City Posts: 9,807 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    too lazy to quote...


    OFF TOPIC: aww thanks Scarlettie and Shivalia b:shy... the name does say "of the suggestion box" no it hasnt turned out to everything I have expected, but it *cough* WAS going very nicely. The reason it says Suggested rules, is because it wasn't official when I first made the thread, but unfortunately, whoever stickie'd it didnt rename it.


    ON TOPIC: I completely agree with you Shivalia. I can clear up the necro part if someone hasnt already for you. It's 30 days prior to the last post made in the thread. You're right, it wouldn't make sense if it was prior to the OP
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  • Jellytoast - Sanctuary
    Jellytoast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    "Hijacking: Taking control of another person's post to forward your own agenda will result in having your posts removed from that thread. Repeated hijackings can result in a ban from the forums/game."

    At first this seems straightforward. But even I'm confused by reading it. First thought, I believed Hijacking was basically hacking of accounts. But here it says to take control of another person's post, not account to use it to post. Perhaps an example is in order? I personally can't think of what that may mean other than something like causing a fight over something someone said that's irrelevant to the main point of the topic.


    Basically this is if someone posts a thread asking about say, good genie skills for a certain class, then someone else posts asking something about mounts on their thread, that's hijacking. Trying to use what someone posted a thread for to get your own answers without finding them/posting their own thread.
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  • Shivalia - Lost City
    Shivalia - Lost City Posts: 883 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Basically this is if someone posts a thread asking about say, good genie skills for a certain class, then someone else posts asking something about mounts on their thread, that's hijacking. Trying to use what someone posted a thread for to get your own answers without finding them/posting their own thread.

    Ah, that makes a lot of sense. And I actually see that happen a lot... They definitely should be more in depth on that one. I've edited with thanks to you in the main post and a suggestion for a simple revision.
    too lazy to quote...


    OFF TOPIC: aww thanks Scarlettie and Shivalia b:shy... the name does say "of the suggestion box" no it hasnt turned out to everything I have expected, but it *cough* WAS going very nicely. The reason it says Suggested rules, is because it wasn't official when I first made the thread, but unfortunately, whoever stickie'd it didnt rename it.


    ON TOPIC: I completely agree with you Shivalia. I can clear up the necro part if someone hasnt already for you. It's 30 days prior to the last post made in the thread. You're right, it wouldn't make sense if it was prior to the OP

    You're very welcome. Its unfortunate all of your time you spent on it has gone mostly to people flaming you from what I've seen recently. There's nothing really wrong with your thread at all, its just, as I've said, unfortunate that you felt the need to make it in the first place. If the mods would make things more clear, that would help as much as possible, I think, since the biggest issue is people plain not reading the rules. But for those who do, if they make more sense, they will be easier to follow.

    And thank you very much for explaining the necro for sure. That's what I always believed, but I was lead to question it by someone stating that people were continuously necroing a specific thread when its had regular posts every to every other day. It got a bit on my nerves for them to say that, honestly so that helped spur on the need for more depth in the Code.
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    Wonderful drawing of Shivalia done by the ever talented Shirrii of Heavens Tear. b:heart Much love to you forever!