The silence of the detractors.....

MageMERC - Harshlands · September 2010

...interesting how few new threads are appearing from the usuals about how the game is dead etc etc

..... I've never seen so many new toonts in west arch, silver pool and other lowie areas.... looks to me like the game is busier than ever......

....just thinking aloud.... (so to speak)

PaMpeReD - Heavens Tear · September 2010

MageMERC - Harshlands wrote: »

...interesting how few new threads are appearing from the usuals about how the game is dead etc etc)

cuz there is not anything to do after lvl100

i havent logged in 2 weeks or smt i just wait FW

MageMERC - Harshlands · September 2010

Is that what everyone is doing - Rolling new chars. I know I recently started a ha veno and a barb which is why I've been in the newie areas again.

Still looks very busy though.

PaMpeReD - Heavens Tear · September 2010

i have also lvl97 archer but not gona lvl it to 100 until devs raises lvlcap

Nakhimov - Lost City · September 2010

MageMERC - Harshlands wrote: »

...interesting how few new threads are appearing from the usuals about how the game is dead etc etc)

It's cause they all quit.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · September 2010

i recently started an assassin, new characters seems to be more fun than stupid end game.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · September 2010

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

i recently started an assassin, new characters seems to be more fun than stupid end game.

^^ this.

How many 10x mains have one or more low level alts?

(most of them)

b:bye

sangodoc · September 2010

Yup. I think it's funny how people with no real data claim that things are dead, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

I don't know about other servers, but on Dreamweaver, South Archosaur is slowly becoming a second West Archosaur, with a flood of catshops appearing around the South banker.

It's kind of like all of the people complaining about packs and making annoying animated signatures about packs, yet there are obviously tons of people who want them. Just take a look at all of the WC spam buying and selling tokens and other pack items, not to mention the Duke shouts. I don't even know what those people are complaining about anymore. Inflation? Deal with it. It's inevitable, even IRL. The ability to get nice gear more easily? Isn't that a plus? I've even seen people complain that they offer a variety of packs now. Since when is more options a bad thing? Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the packs already. b:chuckle

Alphae - Lost City · September 2010

Sangodoc wrote: »

Yup. I think it's funny how people with no real data claim that things are dead, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

I don't know about other servers, but on Dreamweaver, South Archosaur is slowly becoming a second West Archosaur, with a flood of catshops appearing around the South banker.

It's kind of like all of the people complaining about packs and making annoying animated signatures about packs, yet there are obviously tons of people who want them. Just take a look at all of the WC spam buying and selling tokens and other pack items, not to mention the Duke shouts. I don't even know what those people are complaining about anymore. Inflation? Deal with it. It's inevitable, even IRL. The ability to get nice gear more easily? Isn't that a plus? I've even seen people complain that they offer a variety of packs now. Since when is more options a bad thing? Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the packs already. b:chuckle

LOL of course people want them. That doesn't mean they wantED them IN-GAME when they were added.

Since the dead horse has long been beaten and buried, I won't say more.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · September 2010

Game isn't "dead" but it's definitely declining.

Especially with speed levelling and new games coming out that offer a good amount of endgame content, it's become more apparent than ever that there is no real endgame content, just a mediocre instance that takes 20 minutes to run.

TW changes have taken a lot of fun out of the game. Why? Because TW was THE endgame content, it was what you continued to level and gear up for. But now you're required to raise 4-5mil every week in order to just pay for TW.

Tw changes have taken away what little endgame content we have and made apparent what little there is to do at a higher level.

Honestly even with packs, bugs, rubberbanding, and the push to force more members to cash shop people wouldn't really mind too much, but those combined with the lack of endgame content has made it apparent the game is going down hill.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · September 2010

Sangodoc wrote: »

Yup. I think it's funny how people with no real data claim that things are dead, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

I don't know about other servers, but on Dreamweaver, South Archosaur is slowly becoming a second West Archosaur, with a flood of catshops appearing around the South banker.

It's kind of like all of the people complaining about packs and making annoying animated signatures about packs, yet there are obviously tons of people who want them. Just take a look at all of the WC spam buying and selling tokens and other pack items, not to mention the Duke shouts. I don't even know what those people are complaining about anymore. Inflation? Deal with it. It's inevitable, even IRL. The ability to get nice gear more easily? Isn't that a plus? I've even seen people complain that they offer a variety of packs now. Since when is more options a bad thing? Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the packs already. b:chuckle

I agree about gear being made more affordable, but the problem with packs is that they are cash shop items. Need I say more?

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · September 2010

Sangodoc wrote: »

Yup. I think it's funny how people with no real data claim that things are dead, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

I don't know about other servers, but on Dreamweaver, South Archosaur is slowly becoming a second West Archosaur, with a flood of catshops appearing around the South banker.

It's kind of like all of the people complaining about packs and making annoying animated signatures about packs, yet there are obviously tons of people who want them. Just take a look at all of the WC spam buying and selling tokens and other pack items, not to mention the Duke shouts. I don't even know what those people are complaining about anymore. Inflation? Deal with it. It's inevitable, even IRL. The ability to get nice gear more easily? Isn't that a plus? I've even seen people complain that they offer a variety of packs now. Since when is more options a bad thing? Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the packs already. b:chuckle

Because they never should have been put in in the first place, but now that they have been put in they're necessary if you want to participate at higher level activities. When every BM has lunar claws you have to have them to keep up, when every archer has a lunar bow, you have to have one to compete.

When everyone has these things you need to get them to keep up, that is why packs are "wanted" because they have become a necessary evil.

Aubree - Dreamweaver · September 2010

Sangodoc wrote: »

Yup. I think it's funny how people with no real data claim that things are dead, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

I don't know about other servers, but on Dreamweaver, South Archosaur is slowly becoming a second West Archosaur, with a flood of catshops appearing around the South banker.
It's kind of like all of the people complaining about packs and making annoying animated signatures about packs, yet there are obviously tons of people who want them. Just take a look at all of the WC spam buying and selling tokens and other pack items, not to mention the Duke shouts. I don't even know what those people are complaining about anymore. Inflation? Deal with it. It's inevitable, even IRL. The ability to get nice gear more easily? Isn't that a plus? I've even seen people complain that they offer a variety of packs now. Since when is more options a bad thing? Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the packs already. b:chuckle

Then you know that those people are the same people who are just standing there during the day with nothing to do while chatting in faction chat, then catshop while they sleep cause too lazy to walk to west. Or already have 3 shops in west, and are the same people who have been here forever.. me included. There's no more than 10-12 shops . I mean seriously west arch you say? Shall I post SS?

It's not that there are tons of new players, it's old player rolling a new toon out of boredom. As a matter of fact I would love to see some of this "real data" you talk about. Give us hard numbers on how many of those "new players" actually are new players and not alts. Thats one of the biggest problems I see lately...Servers are filled with way too many alts.

sangodoc · September 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

I agree about gear being made more affordable, but the problem with packs is that they are cash shop items. Need I say more?

Yes, if you want to make a point. You don't need to spend cash to get cash shop items. You can either buy/trade them from other players or do Gold Trading at the auctioneer.

Just because something is a cash shop item, doesn't make it bad. People paying for things is what keeps the servers running, people adding new content to the game, etc...

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Because they never should have been put in in the first place,

I disagree there. Did they change things? Sure, but it's more a matter of opinion and perspective as to whether the change was good, bad, both, or neutral.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

but now that they have been put in they're necessary if you want to participate at higher level activities. When every BM has lunar claws you have to have them to keep up, when every archer has a lunar bow, you have to have one to compete.

When everyone has these things you need to get them to keep up, that is why packs are "wanted" because they have become a necessary evil.

Bah! This is absurd. Nobody is forcing anyone to compete any more than they were already "forced" to compete in this game.

The packs aren't "evil" either, that's just loaded wording. For the most part they're just a way to get things you could already get in the game, just a bit more easily.

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There's no more than 10-12 shops . I mean seriously west arch you say? Shall I post SS?

I didn't say it was another West Arch, I said it was slowly becoming another West Arch. As for "no more than 10-12 shops", I just logged on for a quick check, and there were 24 catshops by the South Arch banker, and another 8 or so in the intersection and nearby areas. (Screenshot, just counting blue circled ones, green one ignored, others just beyond the green one were out of visible range.) I remember when there were normally only 2-3 catshops in South Arch.

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's not that there are tons of new players, it's old player rolling a new toon out of boredom. As a matter of fact I would love to see some of this "real data" you talk about. Give us hard numbers on how many of those "new players" actually are new players and not alts. Thats one of the biggest problems I see lately...Servers are filled with way too many alts.

I'd love to see the data you have too, but the problem is that only PWE has actual data, and they aren't releasing it. All any of us has is nearly worthless anecdotal evidence.

Also, I didn't claim that there are "tons of new players", I just said that it doesn't appear to be dying, it actually appears to be slowly getting more players, and making more alts doesn't add more catshops.

Please, don't make strawman arguments by grossly exaggerating what I say, I'm just trying to point out that "game is dead" people are rather obviously wrong.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · September 2010

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then you know that those people are the same people who are just standing there during the day with nothing to do while chatting in faction chat, then catshop while they sleep cause too lazy to walk to west. Or already have 3 shops in west, and are the same people who have been here forever.. me included. There's no more than 10-12 shops . I mean seriously west arch you say? Shall I post SS?

It's not that there are tons of new players, it's old player rolling a new toon out of boredom. As a matter of fact I would love to see some of this "real data" you talk about. Give us hard numbers on how many of those "new players" actually are new players and not alts. Thats one of the biggest problems I see lately...Servers are filled with way too many alts.

While I think you took the "west arch" thing way out of context, you're right to question the "real data" aspect. Sango likely didn't factor how many people are using multi-clients not only to cat shop, and sometimes play at the same time, but make multiple cat shops. That's certainly a way to inflate the way a population looks.

Anyone ever play Silkroad Online? Their servers for the longest time had been full 90% of the time. I suppose by that right, they're just really successful. Except, of course, if you don't count that by far most of that population were gold bots from China, and most of the players even logged in were botting themselves, likely spending $15 - $30 a month on tickets that help them log in (lol..). So indeed seeing players there is not inherently evidence to success anymore than seeing an SRO full server means success.

The only valid info that can be determined if the company is successful or not is to look at their financial statements, or even stock value. That tells everything you need to know, and at least one of those tidbits of information has been posted numerous times.

tweakz · September 2010

Just another thread full of illegitimate complaints.

Why is no one complaining that they aren't getting the Rep from FB's that they should be getting? Even when I submitted a support ticket about it: I got the most disrespectul response they could give. Rep is worth coin and RL money is worth coin, therefore Rep is worth money. What is their response to a whole squad not getting the rep they earned? -See for yourself and submit a ticket next time you're helpers get screwed! Not only did they waste my time in game: they did nothing about the problem after I spent the time to report it!

5aps don't break the game, TW isn't end game and changes to it didn't break the game. The real problems are the ones least complained about in the forums which leads me to wonder how many of the whiner posts here are actually staged diversions from the real issues.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · September 2010

Bah! This is absurd. Nobody is forcing anyone to compete any more than they were already "forced" to compete in this game.

If you want to participate in high level PvP, if you want to TW, if you want to be taken on runs for instances then yes, you have to have these things.

If you're content not getting past level 80 and doing your own thing that's fine, but for those of us that want to play with and against the best, we have to have these items. Why? Because when I'm using my mold/TT gears against a guy that got several items that take months each of farming by simplying cash shopping, it puts me at a huge disadvantage. Sure, nobody is "forcing" me to compete with these players but I and many other players wish to do so, because that's what we enjoy doing in the game. The fact that a part of the game REQUIRES items from the cash shop, is wrong. It's at that point the game becomes a more expensive pay to play.

The packs aren't "evil" either, that's just loaded wording. For the most part they're just a way to get things you could already get in the game, just a bit more easily.

"just a bit more easily"

No, how about in less than an hour getting gears that take several months to farm.

Farming rank 8 without pack items takes YEARS, people are getting it in days by cash shopping.

Farming event boots and helm takes months of farming each, MONTHS of farming.

Farming lunar weps took months prior to the rework. Now it takes farming, lots of time, and lots of money (3mil entrance)

Farming a cube neck took a month, MINIMUM, and tons of coins, now you right click a pack. That's for the g14 one, the g15 one (which some people do have) requires at least 3 months of farming, it takes 3 right clicks from packs.

TW isn't end game

lolwut? It's the top 160 players on the server in one instance, if that isn't endgame I don't know what is.

Just because something is a cash shop item, doesn't make it bad. People paying for things is what keeps the servers running, people adding new content to the game, etc...

"adding new content to the game" like I said in one of my previous posts, there is NOTHING to do at endgame. Just farm the same instances you've been farming up until that point, except you add an instance that is rather bland, boring, and short.

Ever play LoL? There's no difference there between people who pay and people who don't. Infact runes (items that augment your stats) CANT be purchased with real life money, because the company doesn't want you to be able to purchase power. The only thing you need real life money for is skins, which are purely for looks, do not effect stats in any way at all. And they seem to be doing fine, I'd say they have a much larger player base then PWI.

setantasrose · September 2010

Sangodoc wrote: »

It's kind of like all of the people complaining about packs and making annoying animated signatures about packs, yet there are obviously tons of people who want them. Just take a look at all of the WC spam buying and selling tokens and other pack items, not to mention the Duke shouts. I don't even know what those people are complaining about anymore. Inflation? Deal with it. It's inevitable, even IRL. The ability to get nice gear more easily? Isn't that a plus? I've even seen people complain that they offer a variety of packs now. Since when is more options a bad thing? Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the packs already. b:chuckle

Wow Sango, to think I used to work alongside and respect you. Has this ALWAYS been your opinion? Pro pack? I don't ever recalling you supporting them BEFORE you were promoted to Moderator... >.>

It's true, all the noobs who came after the TB expansion and who troll forums apparently believe this game is dead.

LeirtA - Lost City · September 2010

MageMERC - Harshlands wrote: »

...interesting how few new threads are appearing from the usuals about how the game is dead etc etc

..... I've never seen so many new toonts in west arch, silver pool and other lowie areas.... looks to me like the game is busier than ever......

....just thinking aloud.... (so to speak)

Interesting how my friend list and a few others like myself find our friends' online presence dwindling when it was always 10 or more always online anytime I logged into the game few months ago.

Interesting that a lot of players start up new toons after reaching a high enough level. Lack of end game activities available perhaps? Days and days and hours and hours of farming the same instance (again and again and again and again and again and again and again x 100) can make a person very, very bored or in the worse case, go mental. I know the newbie areas are crowded. I keep running into people I know who have higher level mains when I'm leveling my new toon too. Does this mean that the game is growing and teeming with new players?

Interesting how my guild with approximately 180 members now has only 10-20 online at any given time even during TW times, when a few months ago the number was definitely way, way more and there's almost no more guild chat activity considering that most of them online are either afk setting up cat shops or just simply, afk.

Trying to gloss over the facts doesn't make the picture look prettier. It just paints an uglier picture of you.

Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the packs already. b:chuckle

Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the players who complain about the packs already. Anyone who plays this game has the right to bring forth their concerns just like you do with your right to complain about their complaining. If they didn't care enough about the game the direction is going, they wouldn't be here in the first place. They would be too busy having fun playing another game.

denesis · September 2010

The game is dead for sure.

tweakz · September 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

COLOR=**** can't read:If you want to participate in high level PvP, if you want to TW, if you want to be taken on runs for instances then yes, you have to have these things.

If you're content not getting past level 80 and doing your own thing that's fine, but for those of us that want to play with and against the best, we have to have these items. Why? Because when I'm using my mold/TT gears against a guy that got several items that take months each of farming by simplying cash shopping, it puts me at a huge disadvantage. Sure, nobody is "forcing" me to compete with these players but I and many other players wish to do so, because that's what we enjoy doing in the game. The fact that a part of the game REQUIRES items from the cash shop, is wrong. It's at that point the game becomes a more expensive pay to play.

Many non cash shoppers are acquiring the same items, the same refines, and the same imbues. What you're doing here is rudely using harsh text colors, and blaming the people that pay for you to play the game for your lack of competence since there are very few cash shoppers that can compete with the best in game merchants.

There isn't an end to the game. There is only going to be 1 person that has an advantage over all, and if it weren't a cash shopper: would that be right?

COLOR=I like ****: just a bit more easily"

No, how about in less than an hour getting gears that take several months to farm.

Farming rank 8 without pack items takes YEARS, people are getting it in days by cash shopping.

BS, and you're talking about killing the game.

Farming event boots and helm takes months of farming each, MONTHS of farming.

Again, You're talking about killing the game.

Farming a cube neck took a month, MINIMUM, and tons of coins, now you right click a pack. That's for the g14 one, the g15 one (which some people do have) requires at least 3 months of farming, it takes 3 right clicks from packs. [/****]

If that's the case: then buy a pack with the coin to gold trade and get your neck!

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · September 2010

Many non cash shoppers are acquiring the same items, the same refines, and the same imbues. What you're doing here is rudely using harsh text colors, and blaming the people that pay for you to play the game for your lack of competence since there are very few cash shoppers that can compete with the best in game merchants.

There isn't an end to the game. There is only going to be 1 person that has an advantage over all, and if it weren't a cash shopper: would that be right?

Fist of all, I can use whatever text color I feel like using, suck it up. My entire point was that F2P players have to spend months and countless amounts of their time to get what cash shop players get in an hour or two, and that you HAVE TO HAVE CASH SHOP ITEMS TO SUCEED.

You don't read what you're quoting, and your arguments are childish and have no basis.

Deora - Lost City · September 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

You don't read what you're quoting, and your arguments are childish and have no basis.

Should have used this instead

sangodoc · September 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you want to participate in high level PvP, if you want to TW, if you want to be taken on runs for instances then yes, you have to have these things.

I didn't say you didn't have to compete for those things, I'm just saying that adding the packs didn't change that fact.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you're content not getting past level 80 and doing your own thing that's fine,

Wow... way to make assumptions, dude. I'm continuing to level, just not at the breakneck speed that too many people do it. I like to complete all of my quests before leveling, and I also work, have friends I hang out with, shows I watch and other things, so I don't spend all of my free time playing the game. Personally, I like drawing out my enjoyment of the game, rather than rushing to the end.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

but for those of us that want to play with and against the best, we have to have these items.

But my point is that packs didn't change that fact, they just made the items easier to obtain.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

The fact that a part of the game REQUIRES items from the cash shop, is wrong. It's at that point the game becomes a more expensive pay to play.

But the game doesn't require that, you just feel that it does for how you choose to play and what you want to do. Furthermore, you can get the items without spending cash yourself if you choose to.

It really seems to come down to the fact that you don't like the fact that it's more difficult to get things for free than it is if you pay cash. I'm sorry, but I have little sympathy for that position. Heck, the fact that people are paying cash for these things tends to make them easier to get without spending cash as well.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

"just a bit more easily"

No, how about in less than an hour getting gears that take several months to farm.

Farming rank 8 without pack items takes YEARS, people are getting it in days by cash shopping.

Farming event boots and helm takes months of farming each, MONTHS of farming.

Farming lunar weps took months prior to the rework. Now it takes farming, lots of time, and lots of money (3mil entrance)

Farming a cube neck took a month, MINIMUM, and tons of coins, now you right click a pack. That's for the g14 one, the g15 one (which some people do have) requires at least 3 months of farming, it takes 3 right clicks from packs.

I'm sorry, but all of that seems like a reason why packs are a good thing to me. Why would you want to spend "YEARS" farming rank 8? Sounds dull to me. (BTW, "years"? The game's only been around for just over two years, and people had farmed Rank VIII well before that.)

Perhaps we could include a rusty spoon for you, so that you could gouge yourself with it in order to make obtaining gear more painful? b:chuckle

Also, if it only takes 3 right clicks to get the g15 Cube necklace from packs, why not just do those three clicks yourself? Answer: because it's not as effortless as you claim to do that. Packs make getting some things easier, but they don't make things that easy.

setantasrose wrote: »

Wow Sango, to think I used to work alongside and respect you. Has this ALWAYS been your opinion? Pro pack? I don't ever recalling you supporting them BEFORE you were promoted to Moderator... >.>

Yup, packs have never bothered me (I'm not sure if you'd call that "pro pack", but I was never anti-pack). I honestly find all of the overblown complaining about it far more annoying.

Becoming a moderator of the wiki had nothing to do with that stance, nor has it changed or influenced my opinion.

LeirtA - Lost City wrote: »

Interesting how my friend list and a few others like myself find our friends' online presence dwindling when it was always 10 or more always online anytime I logged into the game few months ago.

I believe that's called "turnover". My grandmother saw her friends dwindle too, does that mean that therefore there must now be less people on Earth? b:chuckle

Seriously, I don't know if there are more or less people playing now, but things like that aren't objective evidence, they're merely selective samples and worthless anecdotal evidence.

LeirtA - Lost City wrote: »

Trying to gloss over the facts doesn't make the picture look prettier. It just paints an uglier picture of you.

I'm not "glossing over the facts", I'm just pointing out the absence of any really good objective evidence one way or another. Even my own example wasn't particularly good, it was just intended to show that there is other evidence of equal (poor) quality to the contrary.

LeirtA - Lost City wrote: »

Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the players who complain about the packs already.

Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with people who complain about the players who complain about the packs already. :-P

This is the first time I've ever said anything on the issue, so I don't know how you classify my comments in one thread as an "obsession".

LeirtA - Lost City wrote: »

Anyone who plays this game has the right to bring forth their concerns just like you do with your right to complain about their complaining. If they didn't care enough about the game the direction is going, they wouldn't be here in the first place. They would be too busy having fun playing another game.

So I have a right to complain about complainers, but I should still shut up? Sorry, you lost me there.

Look, I'm sure they have concerns about the game, but how else am I supposed to point out that I think their "concerns" don't make much sense to me if I don't complain about how silly and annoying they seem to me? Some don't even make arguments, they just have annoying animated "protest" sigs (for the record, I find almost all animated sigs annoying). I'm just tired of the "packs are evil" people and finally felt the need to say something about it.

If people like the game, then PWI has to make money to keep it running. Packs are one way of doing that. If people didn't like packs, they wouldn't buy them, and PWI wouldn't keep selling them. From a business perspective: they're merely feeding market demand, and the sales help support the game itself. (I can't wait to see how people take this out of context or blow it out of proportion. b:shocked)

Almost all of the anti-pack complaints I see are from people who don't pay to keep the game running and/or are of the "change is bad" mindset. I understand that they're a bit upset that things that they once had to work hard for can now be gotten more easily, but from a less self-centered perspective: the packs make things easier for everyone to get. Such is the nature of progress. Even if you're not a cash player, prices have dropped for just about all of these items, making them much easier to buy with in-game coins. If you still want to work hard for it in-game, fine, but that's your choice.

Does the free player have to work more in-game for the items than a cash player? Of course, but that's the nature of the world. You have to work for what you want, either in real life (to earn the cash) or in the game (to earn the coins/mats/etc...). It's a trade-off, but it's usually up to you how much of each you want to put into the game for what you want.

That's my opinion anyways. (I'm not saying you can't have your own opinion or perspective on these things, I'm just trying to communicate my own.)

Just to note: The above opinions are all my own. I have not been directed in any way by PWE staff on what they do or do not want me to say, outside of the normal forum rules. I have no stock in the company, and I do not work for, nor am I in any way compensated by PWE for my work on the PWI wiki as the wiki moderator. I do it in my spare time for free because I care about having accurate information out there for the people who play the game.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · September 2010

You should never be able to buy months and months of work in a day in a game, that should never be the case. When that becomes the case then it's just a big F U to the people who don't choose to charge. And you're implying that packs are needed in order to fund this game, while in fact they managed to get by for an ENTIRE YEAR without packs.

But I digress, packs are not the issue here.

But honestly this isn't about packs, it's about the game in general. And as any player who has been here for a long time will tell you, the game is going downhill. The game seems to be suffering from neglect. A long term neglect towards bug fixes is one and then there's the big 2:

TW changes and

Lack of endgame content.

Players are reaching 100 faster than ever and when they get there the realize "hey there's nothing to do besides TW" and thanks to the recent update, they don't even have TW.

Thrasymachus - Sanctuary · September 2010

I'm gonna try to play devil's advocate to both sides here, which will probably earn me no end of grief from both sides, but here goes.

A lot of the F2P players who complain about the game going downhill seem to make a false moral equivalence between those who choose to fund their in-game activities solely through grinding, farming and merchanting and those who purchase zen to supplement or replace their in-game income. These choices are not equivalent. The player who purchases zen is paying to keep the servers up, and for developers to write new content. The player who refuses to purchase zen is a drain on resources, bandwidth, server space, etc. The ONLY thing a F2P player offers is their willingness and ability to farm, increasing the number of useful items in game, and increasing the coin supply to lubricate the economy. In other words, the value, to the game, of F2P players is always a derivative of the value those players provide to the players who pay. F2P players will never and should never have the same ease of experience as those who pay.

That being said, it seems to me that most of the disgust with packs has to do with their effect on gold prices. Back in the day, when gold was only 150k, a lvl 30 wizard could grind enough to get a couple of gold in a couple of hours worth of grinding. Now, that same wizard would have to grind 2-3 times as long to get the same amount of gold. If F2P players have to grind/farm/merchant to have the resources to purchase gold, the question becomes, "how much?" Much of the complaining really has to do with the amount of grinding/farming/merchanting the F2P player has to do to purchase the amount of gold they want/need, they feel it's too much. Compounding this issue is the fact that some classes (veno) are far better at grinding/farming than others (wiz). This creates resentment because people usually want to fund their character with that character, that is, without creating an alt mule. Indeed, this, in my opinion, is perhaps the greatest flaw in balance that persists in the game, the imbalance in the ability to self-fund. F2P players are practically forced into having a veno alt, not to keep up, but to be able to participate at all with a reasonable amount of effort. There are always exceptions, of course, the odd player who manages to luck into an emerging market and gets rich without having to farm or grind much, but those are always the exceptions, not the rule.

In the end, I side slightly with the anti-pack crowd. While packs do make more endgame gear and other things more available, and thus more cheap, they make other things, regular boutique items like charms, fashion, mounts, aerogear, etc, more expensive because they make gold more expensive. This makes F2P players have to grind/farm/merchant more than they used to in order to get what they used to get with much less effort. It benefits the crowd already at end-game to the detriment of all those who have yet to arrive at those lofty, and apparently boring heights. I do, however, think something can be done to alleviate the situation. Have merchants sell perfect iron hammers for 800k, and replace the coin award from the chest of coins with 5 event boutique gold. The flood of event boutique gold would help alleviate demand for gold, lowering prices, and the coin sink for perfect iron hammers sold at merchants will be a more effective remedy for overall inflation than the nerfed TW pay, and probably more effective than removing those (in)famous ToPBL. It'll also help make the supply stash worthwhile to open.

sangodoc · September 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

You should never be able to buy months and months of work in a day in a game, that should never be the case. When that becomes the case then it's just a big F U to the people who don't choose to charge.

Well, that's always been the case then. Since you could always (AFAIK) buy a bunch of gold and sell it for in-game coins using Gold Trading, doing the equivalent of months of grinding in one day. You could then go the the AH and turn those coins into gear that would take months of work to make. So, yeah, this is really nothing new, it's just another way to do it that involves less time wasted on often-tedious grinding.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

And you're implying that packs are needed in order to fund this game, while in fact they managed to get by for an ENTIRE YEAR without packs.

I was not implying that they were required in order to fund the game. There were other packs before the Anniversary packs, just ones that weren't as good, and they've always had to sell something. All I was saying was that the token packs sell well (because people want them), so they'd be fools not to continue selling them, and that money supports the game.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

But I digress, packs are not the issue here.

It was certainly one of my issues, or rather the now-tedious complaints about them was.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

But honestly this isn't about packs, it's about the game in general. And as any player who has been here for a long time will tell you, the game is going downhill.

Actually, I've seen some that disagree with that. (Sorry, search function is failing me on finding one example I saw just a few days ago.)

Also, the determination of whether it is going "downhill" or not is more a matter of opinion than one of fact.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

The game seems to be suffering from neglect. A long term neglect towards bug fixes is one

I see bug fixes every week. Yeah, some things have gone unfixed for way too long or need clarification on whether they're intended (such as the cleric's MDef buff not being overwritable), I agree on that, but others have been fixed pretty quickly. As a programmer myself, I have sympathy for developers having to prioritize bugfixes and not being able to fix everything while also adding new content.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

and then there's the big 2:

TW changes and

Lack of endgame content.

Players are reaching 100 faster than ever and when they get there the realize "hey there's nothing to do besides TW" and thanks to the recent update, they don't even have TW.

Bugfixes take time and money. New content takes time and money. And you're complaining about things that make the company money. b:surrender

For what it's worth, I'm guessing that the TW changes aren't over. The idea behind them was to try to prevent TW winners from getting rewarded in such a way that it snowballs into turning them into an unstoppable faction. Just taking a look at the Dreamweaver server, I've got to say it's an utter failure, with Calamity only 3(?) territories away from claiming the whole map. Calamity already had a pretty good start on Dreamweaver even before the TW changes though, so hopefully it isn't as bad on other servers.

As for a lack of endgame content, I'm not up to endgame (and you wonder why I'm leveling slowly?), but I'd have to agree that it looks like you're right in that case. I'm guessing that they're working on that, but in the mean time hoping that you roll more alts, and all of this stuff that helps you level quickly and get good gear quickly is an effort to keep you entertained and playing the game while they work on that content.

Still, lack of endgame content or no, there isn't any conclusive evidence that the game is "dead", or even "dying", it's merely changing.

Honestly, I'm reminded of a saying I used to hear in newsgroups when I was on them, "Imminent death of Usenet predicted." Apparently that oft-repeated claim is almost as old as Usenet itself (here's one example dating back to 1996 that refers to earlier claims of same), and yet more and more data is transmitted via. Usenet every year. Just because people claim something is (nearly) dead or going to die soon, doesn't make it true.

Until PWE declares PWI dead, anyone else saying it's dead is just blowing hot air.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · September 2010

Bugfixes take time and money. New content takes time and money. And you're complaining about things that make the company money.

Again, another game I play with the same acronym as laugh out loud, manages to fund itself without giving cash shoppers such a huge edge. They have a pretty high players base, I'd go so far as to say higher than PWIs, as well. The fact that I could work for months on my gear to have someone get to my level with far superior gear in less than 2 weeks by cash shopping enough, is ridiculous. On the other game I play cash shoppers have NO ADVANTAGE AT ALL over F2P players. The gap that is created by packs is unneccesary.

For what it's worth, I'm guessing that the TW changes aren't over. The idea behind them was to try to prevent TW winners from getting rewarded in such a way that it snowballs into turning them into an unstoppable faction. Just taking a look at the Dreamweaver server, I've got to say it's an utter failure, with Calamity only 3(?) territories away from claiming the whole map. Calamity already had a pretty good start on Dreamweaver even before the TW changes though, so hopefully it isn't as bad on other servers.

As a member of a large land holding TW guild myself, TW pay was not a factor in whether or not a faction controlled the map. By holding half the map I still found myself spending more on TW every week than I had coming in.

The TW changes WOULD have been fine, if TW wasn't so expensive to do. But I need to use several HP charms every week the big expensive, I was looking at about 4mil a week just from that, the amount has gone down a bit now due to the platinum charm sale, but when it ends it'll go right back up. 200 crab meat jaozi at least, theres an additional 400k. Apothecary potions which need to be farmed which can take up a pretty significant chunk of time, and as we all know, time = money. And I go out and spend all this money, and do the TW, after a 2 hour + war we finally win and whats my reward? 300k in mirages.

The fact that you either work hard for months, leveling to a high level, improving your gear, learning your demon/sage skills, to participate in TW, and THEN need to shell out 5mil a week for no reward, is absurd. If a faction manages to take an entire map is due to the factions hard work and the dedication of it's members, NOT because of TW pay. And it's partially due to the server sitting there and letting it happen. We had a faction that was about to take over our server, a bunch of high levels decided not to let the map be dominated, grouped together, worked hard on improving their memebrs levels and gears, and managed to keep the map multi-colored.

Still, lack of endgame content or no, there isn't any conclusive evidence that the game is "dead", or even "dying", it's merely changing.

It is declining, when they ruin TW and neglect bugs, and fail to provide content.

Really, lately the developers have done very little for the game, a bugged wedding instance, some bugs that were created by poor testing on patches the week prior, and that's about it.

VenoProwl - Raging Tide · September 2010

I am sure pwi/pwe advertises itself as a 'free2play' game. I have no qualms about packs, as they need some income to survive, (although I prefer the idea of successful games like LoL where people who paid only got fashion/better looks) but I do have qualms about the way they were introduced, without prior warning, and your argument (sang) about it being "how the world works".

When I started the game, I don't believe I received something along the lines of a message from the devs saying

"In 5 months time, we'll introduce something that will make you get a certain gear in 5 days (or $200, for example), rather than 5 months."

Well, if they did issue that message, I'm sure many will not play, and wait that 5 months to get the gear almost instantly, instead of working for 5 months (or for the cash shoppers, charging $800 more during those 5 months to buy parts towards their gear), then finally getting the gear, and having it oh so easy to get by charging a lot less money ($200).

I could say that's a form of deceit. If you own shares in a company, the company issues you a monthly statement about how the company is faring/ general decisions the company is making so that you can decide if you still want to invest in the company. (In pwi's case, 'invest' your time into the game)

Let's say you, Sang, work your butt off to get a Ford Model T. A few days after you get it, Henry Ford discovers mass production, and your ex-GF's current BF can get it for 1/10 the hours that you worked to afford it (assuming both of you are on equal wages).

Sure, there's nothing you can do. But you'll probably QQ. I know I would. But what if you learnt that Henry Ford already knew about mass production even before you bought your car, and just wanted to make a quick buck by selling the Model T's @ a much higher price to a couple of people, before introducing mass production and lowering the price?

Could you say he deceived you? If you had the information that that car would be cheaper, and you had time to wait, I'm sure you would have waited.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Players are reaching 100 faster than ever and when they get there the realize "hey there's nothing to do besides TW" and thanks to the recent update, they don't even have TW.

What Rawrgh said is very true. Many (I'll give you a ballpark figure of 30%) of my BH squads are filled with at least 1-2 members who admit to me that they had just started playing the game about 2-3 weeks ago, and have hypered/ oracled to their level.

While some of these people know how to play their classes, the majority don't. This is why I BH less now, and rather try my luck on finding a gamma squad. Why? Because you'll die in gamma if you don't know how to play your class to a certain degree of skill. BH? Yea sure you'll die if you run at a boss, but I don't think I have to point out that it is 'easier' to die in gamma/delta than in a BH. I have to fight with those who charge money, if you wanna throw money at a computer game to get an edge, I understand that.

However, I am annoyed at the impoliteness of those people, as to me, it is rude to be in my squad, not know how to play your class (which usually comes from experience, and time) and therefore not pull your own weight.

TW. I have to point out that TW is one of the few places where you need experience (again experience comes from TIME playing) to know different classes' squishy-ness, their skills, and you need decent experience to function as a team. Yes, gear is also important, but it's an instance where quantity can sometimes overwhelm quality, and it is a natural selection pressure against noobs.

So yes, I think TW is one of the endgame highlights, especially for the non-cs players, and although I still TW, I know that many who did did so because of TW pay, which is now gone. No, 1/10 TW pay is nothing, and I'm sure many guilds don't give out 20k TW pay.

Back to packs, since it seems to be the general topic. You point out that if people leave, there is an apparent influx of new chars. (whether it be alts or actual new people, is not the case here...) However I am pretty sure before the days of packs, there WAS already a steady flow of new people (I'm sure packs certainly didn't increase the player base) along with the existing players.

And you admit that people do leave (which is true, observed by diminished friend-lists across servers), as you state, "turnover", unquote. So WITHOUT packs, you have people joining AND staying, which is > WITH packs, people joining and leaving (less people).

I know you're a MOD and all, but can't you agree that packs was not advantageous to the player pool of this game (success of a game relies on its player pool, and happiness of existing players)? Would you agree to an extent that the developers introduced packs with the sole intent of making money, knowing that it may cause some people to quit the game and/or become thoroughly dissatisfied customers?

I'm assuming of course you as a moderator also consider non-csers customers, and would treat us the same as those that charge $500 per month. I'm sure you would.

=============================
On the note of any 'increased' number of catshops, people multiclient. I know a lot who do, and you and I both know I cannot state who they are (maybe if you take out the packs...)

Your grandmother sees her friends passing, but there isn't any shortage of people in the world. Turnover, you say.

On the other hand, if all her friends are still alive, wouldn't there be a great many more people, and even 'wiser' and more 'experienced' people in the world?

sangodoc · September 2010

Thrasymachus - Sanctuary wrote: »

That being said, it seems to me that most of the disgust with packs has to do with their effect on gold prices.
[...]
While packs do make more endgame gear and other things more available, and thus more cheap, they make other things, regular boutique items like charms, fashion, mounts, aerogear, etc, more expensive because they make gold more expensive. This makes F2P players have to grind/farm/merchant more than they used to in order to get what they used to get with much less effort.

Honestly, this is a good point. However, I see inflation as inevitable in any fluid economic system. It was happening even before the packs, they just caused a more sudden jump in prices because, with the addition of the tokens, they were a very new, attractive, and useful item. Still, I think it's only a bit more effort for the non-cash players overall.

Still, as long as they're adding new things to the game, changes will happen, and they will never be so perfectly balanced that they don't affect anything else in the game.

Thrasymachus - Sanctuary wrote: »

I do, however, think something can be done to alleviate the situation. Have merchants sell perfect iron hammers for 800k, and replace the coin award from the chest of coins with 5 event boutique gold. The flood of event boutique gold would help alleviate demand for gold, lowering prices, and the coin sink for perfect iron hammers sold at merchants will be a more effective remedy for overall inflation than the nerfed TW pay, and probably more effective than removing those (in)famous ToPBL. It'll also help make the supply stash worthwhile to open.

Unfortunately your "solution" only considers two of the three groups involved, with the third being PWE. A sudden influx of event gold would likely mean that less regular gold would need to be purchased by the players, thus they'd make less money. They'd have to be both very generous and very rich to afford to take an economic loss like that.

Maybe you're thinking PWE would make money from gold purchased in order to get the coins for the 800k hammers, however it will never be as much as would have been spent normally, because if it was then that would mean that it would be cheaper just buy items normally, instead of via. this new method with event gold. (Obviously excepting any items that are only purchasable with event gold.)

Also, a sudden influx of any currency, existing or new, tends to drive prices up, not down. Any items that don't have a fixed price would likely go up.

(But I'm posting while sleepy now, so pardon me if my logic is a bit off or I missed something.)

NoImKrel - Heavens Tear · September 2010

Sangodoc wrote: »

Yup. I think it's funny how people with no real data claim that things are dead, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

I don't know about other servers, but on Dreamweaver, South Archosaur is slowly becoming a second West Archosaur, with a flood of catshops appearing around the South banker.

It's kind of like all of the people complaining about packs and making annoying animated signatures about packs, yet there are obviously tons of people who want them. Just take a look at all of the WC spam buying and selling tokens and other pack items, not to mention the Duke shouts. I don't even know what those people are complaining about anymore. Inflation? Deal with it. It's inevitable, even IRL. The ability to get nice gear more easily? Isn't that a plus? I've even seen people complain that they offer a variety of packs now. Since when is more options a bad thing? Seriously, some people just need to let go of their obsession with the packs already. b:chuckle

yay..gamble/buy your armor with money..yes packs are weak.Why not make it not so damn extreme to make the gears/stones these pack hold a lil easier witout having o pay 100000000000000000000000000000000 damn coins huh? and 100000000000000000000000000000000000 hours...nah your kind rather see people buy their way to the top...ah oh well gotta love these kinda mmo's no skill what so ever jsut a good ole time waster i guess.

The silence of the detractors.....

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