"nuke" sage sin vs a DPS demon sin
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear
Posts: 690 Arc User
ok so i havent played this game for a few months and im starting to play it again. when i left sins still didnt have sage/demon skills. i am back and now they do. i did do my research and looked on ecatomb so im familiar with what the demon/sage sins do.
basically demon for 5 APS and high DPS and sage for skill spamming and high DPH.
anyway lets get to the point. basically i want to know how do they compare now that they are officially out? when i left there was alot of thoery and basically back then demon sin>sage sin. but it seems after the release of skills alot of skills got switched around. demon skills became sage skills and vice versa.
right now i am liking the idea of a "nuke" sin. from what i seen you can get like 103+ atk lvls as a nuke sin? how well does that stack up to demons 5aps? in terms of pvp and pve. and what do i NEED for a nuke sin in terms of equips. i already know what i need for demons sin, what i want to know about mainly are sage sins so i can compare.
what other builds are there besides the nuke build for sage? also what are the benefits of a sage sin over a demon sin in pvp.
basically demon for 5 APS and high DPS and sage for skill spamming and high DPH.
anyway lets get to the point. basically i want to know how do they compare now that they are officially out? when i left there was alot of thoery and basically back then demon sin>sage sin. but it seems after the release of skills alot of skills got switched around. demon skills became sage skills and vice versa.
right now i am liking the idea of a "nuke" sin. from what i seen you can get like 103+ atk lvls as a nuke sin? how well does that stack up to demons 5aps? in terms of pvp and pve. and what do i NEED for a nuke sin in terms of equips. i already know what i need for demons sin, what i want to know about mainly are sage sins so i can compare.
what other builds are there besides the nuke build for sage? also what are the benefits of a sage sin over a demon sin in pvp.
Post edited by Ballistixz - Heavens Tear on
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Comments
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For TW, you're better off "nuking" since you aren't gonna last long, so better make that hit count. Everything else, aps is better.0
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... Seriously, why is it that everyone seems to think that Sages cannot do anything but use skills? Is it because Demon's get more damage out of it? Or is it because that role is already taken and therefore Sages need something else?
Honestly, for skills, Sages get some really good ones. Their Focused Mind is upgraded from 1/4 to 1/3, their Wolf Emblem is permanent, their Bloodpaint is much better, their RDS gives more chi, their Rib Strike has a hp debuff.
And it's really sad to see people go "Demon Spark > All Sage Skills".
And btw, if you plan to use CoD and mainly skill spam, expect your expenses to be higher than that of going demon and getting 5 APS. After all, since you won't be going for -interval, you'll most likely either get all the possible event gear (event necklace, event belt, event boots) or go for full nirvanas. Not to mention TT100 instead of Nirvana.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Just wondering (since all post about demon vs sage look like "demon must buy equip,sage no cause have better skills"), do you belive that skill books are free? Do you know the incredible amount of coins you need to buy skill books? they are everything but cheap,some hit 20m-40m EACH. Demon spark it's free and make you the best DD in the game since the lvl 89,paying nothing.
Endgame wise (so thining about a guy whit max int gear,needed for BOTH sage and demon,yes sage need it too) demon will have a better DPS anyway whit a high DPH whit longer stuns and imo it's much useful a longer stun than a little more damage.
Do you really belive that a guy whit +12 nivana daggers (since we are talking about endgame) will do low damage? No matter the cutivation, assassin's DPH it's high but a demon can spark,reach 5 APS and destroy anything in 10 seconds. Sage can't.
Most people still don't realize it but sage path is MUCH more expensive than demon,belive it or not you'll see yourself.0 -
why the hell do people think just because sage has better skills, all theyll do is spam them?
they have better power dash, wolf emblem, subsea, bloodpaint etc.
they make great support, and despite the inferior DD, they still hold a candle in endgame metagame.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
advice to fledgling archers:
Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.0 -
_Tsunami_ - Lost City wrote: »Just wondering (since all post about demon vs sage look like "demon must buy equip,sage no cause have better skills"), do you belive that skill books are free? Do you know the incredible amount of coins you need to buy skill books? they are everything but cheap,some hit 20m-40m EACH. Demon spark it's free and make you the best DD in the game since the lvl 89,paying nothing.
Endgame wise (so thining about a guy whit max int gear,needed for BOTH sage and demon,yes sage need it too) demon will have a better DPS anyway whit a high DPH whit longer stuns and imo it's much useful a longer stun than a little more damage.
Do you really belive that a guy whit +12 nivana daggers (since we are talking about endgame) will do low damage? No matter the cutivation, assassin's DPH it's high but a demon can spark,reach 5 APS and destroy anything in 10 seconds. Sage can't.
Most people still don't realize it but sage path is MUCH more expensive than demon,belive it or not you'll see yourself.
Um, what? Just by having Demon Spark, you don't automatically get permanent sparking. In fact, Sages would need less -interval to get permanent sparking due to getting more chi from RDS, IH and having the Sage skill.
Personally, the only two skills I want to have on 89 are Wolf Emblem and Focused Mind. The rest of the 89 skills aren't that great and by the time I'm 99 I should have more than enough coins to get whichever ones I want from the rest.
Also, it seems like you're forgetting that Bloodpaint and Sage Subsea Strike are wonderful support skills for a squad with mostly 5 APS characters, as Subsea stacks with HF and Bloodpaint is, well, Bloodpaint. And before you say that 1% on Bloodpaint is meaningless, it's effectively 50% more life gotten from BP.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
EXACTLY! I hate that people fail to realize thatb:shockedOlbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »And before you say that 1% on Bloodpaint is meaningless, it's effectively 50% more life gotten from BP.Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
~Spazz~0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Um, what? Just by having Demon Spark, you don't automatically get permanent sparking. In fact, Sages would need less -interval to get permanent sparking due to getting more chi from RDS, IH and having the Sage skill.
Personally, the only two skills I want to have on 89 are Wolf Emblem and Focused Mind. The rest of the 89 skills aren't that great and by the time I'm 99 I should have more than enough coins to get whichever ones I want from the rest.
Also, it seems like you're forgetting that Bloodpaint and Sage Subsea Strike are wonderful support skills for a squad with mostly 5 APS characters, as Subsea stacks with HF and Bloodpaint is, well, Bloodpaint. And before you say that 1% on Bloodpaint is meaningless, it's effectively 50% more life gotten from BP.
The thing you don't realize is that i'm not (and you neither) a blademaster,i have chi skills. As demon assassin whit an attack rate of 2 per second (sparked) i can cast 4 sparks in a raw,exactly,4 demon sparks in a raw. Than there is a gap of 5 seconds and after these seconds i can start the sequence again,4 more sparks. I don't need more chi,assassins are natural born uber chi generators lol.
1% more = 50% more healing. That's right,never said the opposite BUT even if i heal less per hit i do more hits. This is what people always forget.Maybe the overall healing of a sage can be higher (and not so much higher) but i kill the boss/mob faster,this mean less damage suffered.(less repair bills,faster runs)
Sage assassin it's a good support class,but it's much better to have another good interval sin to max the DPS than some one who can use subsea strike 1 time every 30 seconds. People want interval players as DD (once a guys asked my attack speed first to invite me in a frost squad).
Check the videos of the higher lvl istances,why you NEVER see a sage assassin?
When i was 7x i was absolutly sure about the sage path,than i totally changed my idea levelling and now i don't regret my choice since i'm almost able to solo anything and i'm very welcome to any squad for any kind of activity,both pve/pvp.
I found in squad a sage assassin yesterday,same base attack rate (same int equip),higher lvl than me and no lvl 11 skills. Was horrible. I always outdamage him,he was forced of spamming genie's skills to gain attack speed (perfect stones are 1k each and give 720 stamina,never forget that this is a cost too,even whit the OHT daily) and even whit the help of the genie he was always behind me.
Once again,you'll see yourself from 89+,pointless try to explain now there are too many speculations whitout personal experiance.0 -
There's always cult change stone.0
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_Tsunami_ - Lost City wrote: »The thing you don't realize is that i'm not (and you neither) a blademaster,i have chi skills. As demon assassin whit an attack rate of 2 per second (sparked) i can cast 4 sparks in a raw,exactly,4 demon sparks in a raw. Than there is a gap of 5 seconds and after these seconds i can start the sequence again,4 more sparks. I don't need more chi,assassins are natural born uber chi generators lol.
Trust me, I know exactly how easy it is to have next-to-permanent sparking with the chi skills. I've done the numbers.1% more = 50% more healing. That's right,never said the opposite BUT even if i heal less per hit i do more hits. This is what people always forget.Maybe the overall healing of a sage can be higher (and not so much higher) but i kill the boss/mob faster,this mean less damage suffered.(less repair bills,faster runs)
Again, you're ignoring stuff. Sage spark reduces your damage in-take by 25%. Sage Focused Mind reduces your overall damage in-take by 33% compared to Demon Focused Mind or regular Focused Mind. That's a total of 58% less damage taken.
And believe me, the extra 20% more damage from Subsea Strike will make the runs faster if you're squaded with even a single high APS character. And it gets even better if you happen to have multiple of them.Sage assassin it's a good support class,but it's much better to have another good interval sin to max the DPS than some one who can use subsea strike 1 time every 30 seconds. People want interval players as DD (once a guys asked my attack speed first to invite me in a frost squad).
Tell me. What if a person just doesn't believe that they can afford that 500 million for 5 APS? What if a person believes that by maxing their support skills and helping the better DDs, they'll be more useful? What if adding Sage Bloodpaint to a squad makes them able to go without a cleric and therefore add 1 more DD and therefore be even faster?
Personally though, the reasons I'm going Sage would be better tanking, better passive skills and the fact that even without sparking, a sin out-DPSs a similarly geared archer. Though yes, I pretty much went "OMFG WOLF EMBLEM AS A PERMANENT BUFF SAGE HERE I COME!"
What you need to see is that I'm not saying that Sage is the superior cultivation in every possible scenario. I'm just saying that it's a perfectly viable choice in every possible scenario. It's not like Sage vs Demon on an Archer, where most Sage Archers get laughed at.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Trust me, I know exactly how easy it is to have next-to-permanent sparking with the chi skills. I've done the numbers.
Again, you're ignoring stuff. Sage spark reduces your damage in-take by 25%. Sage Focused Mind reduces your overall damage in-take by 33% compared to Demon Focused Mind or regular Focused Mind. That's a total of 58% less damage taken.
And believe me, the extra 20% more damage from Subsea Strike will make the runs faster if you're squaded with even a single high APS character. And it gets even better if you happen to have multiple of them.
Tell me. What if a person just doesn't believe that they can afford that 500 million for 5 APS? What if a person believes that by maxing their support skills and helping the better DDs, they'll be more useful? What if adding Sage Bloodpaint to a squad makes them able to go without a cleric and therefore add 1 more DD and therefore be even faster?
Personally though, the reasons I'm going Sage would be better tanking, better passive skills and the fact that even without sparking, a sin out-DPSs a similarly geared archer. Though yes, I pretty much went "OMFG WOLF EMBLEM AS A PERMANENT BUFF SAGE HERE I COME!"
What you need to see is that I'm not saying that Sage is the superior cultivation in every possible scenario. I'm just saying that it's a perfectly viable choice in every possible scenario. It's not like Sage vs Demon on an Archer, where most Sage Archers get laughed at.
*Sorry if my english it's far from the perfection but it's not my lenguage*
I don't know the situation on sanctuary but people here (lost city) look for fast runs in frost (your main activity from lvl 80-100), you never meditate (just if someone go afk),you never get coins dropped from mobs and after every pull the barb rush to the boss, then everyone spark while the bm use heaven's flame. You don't have the time to use focused mind,may sound funny but this happen to me all the time,now i use that buff just when i pk or grind/do quests alone. If you buff yourself there is a risk to lose seconds of heaven's flame (amp damage effect last only 6 seconds).
Good thing is that i don't need to ask to slow down,focused help but it's not really needed.
This is an exemple,now the next:the tank ability.
It's quite common find an assassins in a squad and most of the times will be a demon one. You'll never get the aggro,forget it,even if you are higher lvl. So the 25% reduction will be totally useless,will protect you just from the aoe (if the boss has it).
For solo tanking i,as demon whit no skills lvl 11,can do some TT solo mode,whit BB tank 1-1, 1-2, 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3 (not wurlord in 2-x) bosses in hallucinatory trench,wraithgate (not polearm) and eden/abandon whit a pure dex build and g7 shards. Once again,no need of that reduction or the 1% more healing (there is a cleric for a reason,and it's needed because you must have the BB if you want to tank in TT squad mode,the only 1% more alone will just make you die 5 seconds later),i prefer do it faster.Personal preference.
I can tank every boss in frost too (just can't do the boss that debuff phy def,like polearm),whit the normal iron heart (most of the times i tank,barbs just pull)
About the runs whit no cleric: it's not a 1% more that do the difference,even if that 1% mean 50% more healing. It's not about the healing. Someone who can run a high lvl istance whitout a cleric has surpassed the line of "normal player",the damage output it's so high that the boss don't has the time to do anything or almost. Even if hit the charm+high lvl armor+high refine will keep them alive,and the boss die in 10-20 seconds anyway. (there are many videos as proofs,and i never see a sage sin in fast runs,never)
BP it's a little help but not factor,not anymore. The sad thing in this game is that there is not a middle way,or you are able to do it (so uber gear) or not. Once again,from my exeperiace,player who did almost everything allowed to my level except rebirth(no charm b:surrender),plus did 2 nirvana runs whit a friend's lvl 100 char,that 1% is not needed. Now,you can belive me or not,but once again you'll see yourself.
As Okeano said now there is a way to change the cultivation path,so it's not a problem.
There are many reasons why most of the assassins go demon,and it's not only because they want to shine in red when spark,but because it's the only way to maximaze the DD potential of the char.
Once again i can't belive your math,it's done in base of what you belive that is different from what it is (no offence,as said i did the same,but once seen what is needed i totally changed my idea)
As said many times it's all about your game,sage in my opinion it's better for rebirth and for TW,demon for everything else. (so can be good switch to sage when you reach your endgame gear/lvl and do TW as main activity) b:bye
P.s: wall text ftw b:chuckle0 -
_Tsunami_ - Lost City wrote: »
I don't know the situation on sanctuary but people here (lost city) look for fast runs in frost (your main activity from lvl 80-100), you never meditate (just if someone go afk),you never get coins dropped from mobs and after every pull the barb rush to the boss, then everyone spark while the bm use heaven's flame. You don't have the time to use focused mind,may sound funny but this happen to me all the time,now i use that buff just when i pk or grind/do quests alone. If you buff yourself there is a risk to lose seconds of heaven's flame (amp damage effect last only 6 seconds).
Good thing is that i don't need to ask to slow down,focused help but it's not really needed.
If the squads really do use HF, then why the heck aren't you using Subsea, as it stacks with HF?
Also, considering that there is transport involved, you should be more than able to keep Focused Mind on, just cast it before you get to the boss and instead of running to the others, use a teleport.It's quite common find an assassins in a squad and most of the times will be a demon one. You'll never get the aggro,forget it,even if you are higher lvl. So the 25% reduction will be totally useless,will protect you just from the aoe (if the boss has it).
For solo tanking i,as demon whit no skills lvl 11,can do some TT solo mode,whit BB tank 1-1, 1-2, 2-1, 2-2 and 2-3 (not wurlord in 2-x) bosses in hallucinatory trench,wraithgate (not polearm) and eden/abandon whit a pure dex build and g7 shards. Once again,no need of that reduction or the 1% more healing (there is a cleric for a reason,and it's needed because you must have the BB if you want to tank in TT squad mode,the only 1% more alone will just make you die 5 seconds later),i prefer do it faster.Personal preference.
I can tank every boss in frost too (just can't do the boss that debuff phy def,like polearm),whit the normal iron heart (most of the times i tank,barbs just pull)
Sage Spark reduces all damage you take by 25%. Sage Focused Mind reduces all damage to 1 33% of the time and can be active 2/3 of the time, so in total Sage Focused Mind reduces ALL damage by 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 = 22%. These total add to 47%. That's just about the same as the damage reduction from BB. Also, add a charm and event pots and that'll cover all healing.There are many reasons why most of the assassins go demon,and it's not only because they want to shine in red when spark,but because it's the only way to maximaze the DD potential of the char.
... Most sins go Demon because they've seen a 5 APS character in action and are now drooling.
And you need to get it through your head: I AM NOT SAYING THAT SAGE IS THE ULTIMATELY BETTER CULTIVATION. I am just saying that it's a perfectly valid option and that going Sage does not automatically reduce you into spamming Subsea and being on CoD 24/7.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »If the squads really do use HF, then why the heck aren't you using Subsea, as it stacks with HF?
Also, considering that there is transport involved, you should be more than able to keep Focused Mind on, just cast it before you get to the boss and instead of running to the others, use a teleport.
Sage Spark reduces all damage you take by 25%. Sage Focused Mind reduces all damage to 1 33% of the time and can be active 2/3 of the time, so in total Sage Focused Mind reduces ALL damage by 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 = 22%. These total add to 47%. That's just about the same as the damage reduction from BB. Also, add a charm and event pots and that'll cover all healing.
... Most sins go Demon because they've seen a 5 APS character in action and are now drooling.
And you need to get it through your head: I AM NOT SAYING THAT SAGE IS THE ULTIMATELY BETTER CULTIVATION. I am just saying that it's a perfectly valid option and that going Sage does not automatically reduce you into spamming Subsea and being on CoD 24/7.
From what i seen to have one more demon bm/assassin make the runs faster than have a sage assassin that use subsea. In the first situation to kill a boss take 1 minute or less,in the second more. The limit of subsea is that last only 8 seconds and have 30 seconds of cooldown (spark has no cooldown,last 15 seconds and it's spammable or almost), but i never did it whit someone who has the sage version, so i can't say it.
The problem is that talking about subsea strike,i belive that the demon version could be more useful. I mean,the amp damage last 15 seconds,that's a lot,can cover the whole spark time.
Sparking first,than using a chi pot (faster than IH,save some precious istants) and than subsea demon should be very cool... but i'll say it when/if i'll try it.
Once again,subsea strike do not stack whit extreme poison,and honestly i prefer have 30% amp to all and someone who can cast many sparks than 50% to all and someone who do normal attack later...
Teleport don't work,when u use it u are warped back. Not everywhere,but in most bosses's chambers it cannot be used,u must walk.
The 25% reduction it's ok,but talking math wise the 33% to avoit damage it's not static,it's not 1/3. That mean every hit has 33% (high % i must admit) to do 1 damage,you can't be sure.Sometimes when i use focused all hits do 1 damage,sometimes never trigger. It's no 1/4,it's 25% for every hits.
About reduction,i don't know if the 25% stack whit BB or it's overwrited. If it stack yes,it's very cool,otherwise make the spark totally useless.
Whit event pots and charm it's different,i can solo my BH whit that lol,but i follow the "poor way" (well,i'm forced to follow it lol)
I'm not saying it too,i say that demon can be more useful for what is asked now in the game,will make you the in-game life easyer since you'll be able to find a squad in less time (now i don't even look for it,clerics and barbs add me in fl and call me almost the second after my login).
If you like rebirth (reward is very good,i would love do it daily...) and TW and YOU HAVE THE SKILLS LVL 11 the sage assassin probably will be better than a demon one,otherwise you'll do a good damage anyway but the squad will always prefer a demon to you.
No one should should say how to play your char,do what u like and have fun,if u like sage go for it. In worst situation change the cultivation :-P0 -
so to sum it all up, you guys are saying "sage are not meant only for skill spamming" but the main argument that i see seems to be "sage has better skills then demon sin".
this i dont get. if sage sins have better skills then demon then obviously you are going to get those better skills as sage right? and what is the point of not abusing that and spamming them? this is the reason why I and perhaps a few others beleive sage sin is purely for skill spamming. because they have skills that are better then demons in terms of DPH.
the subsea argument is iffy to me. ppl see "omg 50% amp" without realizing that demon subseas last for 15 seconds rater then 8. as far as i see it for a 5 APS character thats 35 more hits that you get in on a 30% amp effect. how is that bad or worst then sage subsea? if anything it seems BETTER then sage subsea if u calculate it in DPS. but im pretty sure no one tested that and just assumed sage was better because they see a huge number. but meh.
same thing goes for demon rib strike. reducing max HP by 10% is godly. reducing attack speed by 65% is godly. but dont try to say "sage rib strike is better" or "demon ribstrike is better" because that is just ****. both of them are damn godly skills and neither of them suck in any sense of the word.
and dont tell me "go sage sin because sage bloodpaint>all other demon skills". if i want sage blood paint then ill ask a sage sin to give me sage blood paint... or did u guys forget that blood paint is a party wide buff? please dont tell me stupid **** like that because i am not gonna fall for such biased arguments.
the reason I was leaning on going sage sin was to spam and abuse there skills based on DPH and sage CoD. i never said that was the only thing they could do. but i still love the fact of five APS because at heart i am a person that loves to play with high DPS/APS classes.
i dont want you guys to try and prove sage>demon sin. nor try to prove that demon>sage. because obviously they have strengths and weaknesses depending on playstyle. all i want to know is the main playstyles of sage sin because i already know most of what there is to know about demon.
i made this thread so i can ultimate decide on whether to go sage or demon in the end based on playstyles. not to try and start argumens about sage CoD being better then Demon CoD or some ****. that is all.0 -
first: im not biased toward either sage or demon. they both do wat they are good at. Either it's 5aps, or "nukeing," both will kick *** in senarios.
to the fact of "demon is better cause they have perma spark" you all forget that all sins can permaspark. we are oozing w/ chi. yes 5 aps are great, and you can afk farm. but w/ full -int gear a sage sin can get 4 aps. It's not afk permaspark but combine w/ sage devotion its pretty close to demon in dmg w/ the reduction.
Yes Sage sins have insane "nuke the **** out of anything i want from stealth" but just cause the sage versions are slightly better then the demon doesn;t mean demons can;t do the same nuking.
to save myself from a wall o' text, they are both great for dps and nuking, just one slightly better in one feild then the other. aka demon can nuke and sage can have good dps as well as the other.
*
And to those that are gonna say, " good luck getting 4 aps on a sage, it's gonna cost a fortune..blah blah blah..nub!" this is what i refer you to b4 you post:SteelStar - Heavens Tear wrote: »You don't make money unless you want to work at this like a second full time job. Then what is the point of playing a "game". Basically all you can do to make money is merchant start out with herbs/mats and work your way to tokens/tt mats. If you actually want to have lots of fun buy $20 worth of zen, sell 12 in the ah and buy a plat mp/hp charm and go to town. Others will say oh yeah you can make money without spending any money on game and still have fun, but no one will hardly play with you at high levels (tell ya that its can take over a year to start making real money) and like I said if you really want to make money you'll dedicate so much time to PW merchanting and collecting that it'll be like a second full time job. If you don't like my buying zen idea then just go on collecting and gathering i mean that what an rpg is all about mainly that and a story line (which there isn't one here). All people care about is trying to get max level as fast they can for the must part. I know this might sound rude but I've been on and off pwi for 2 years and more and more this is all i see.
Games are hobbies, not work. instead of spending all that time "farming" cash slowly, invest in you hobby to make it easier and you will have more fun.0 -
because the superior skills are the buffs and support moves, like power dash, subsea, wolf emblem, focused mind, bloodpaint, devotion etc. you do not spam thesesages are not 'skill spammers' or 'nukers' and anyone who thinks this is ignorant.this i dont get. if sage sins have better skills then demon then obviously you are going to get those better skills as sage right? and what is the point of not abusing that and spamming them? this is the reason why I and perhaps a few others beleive sage sin is purely for skill spamming. because they have skills that are better then demons in terms of DPH.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
advice to fledgling archers:
Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.0 -
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
and dont tell me "go sage sin because sage bloodpaint>all other demon skills". if i want sage blood paint then ill ask a sage sin to give me sage blood paint... or did u guys forget that blood paint is a party wide buff? please dont tell me stupid **** like that because i am not gonna fall for such biased arguments.
OMG please remind me not to give you the sage BP b:chuckle.
personaly I awoid giving sage BP for partys that don't take me with :P (expect friends, but ya they usualy take me with)
And for more, mostly I like to PT and duo things with my friend demon sin, combination sage+demon in squad is just awesome.
and 1 more thing I like being sage - that's becouse most of Sins are demon :P (and yes it's the way to get better DPS faster and cheaper b:surrender ).
And if some1 is good at math i'm preaty exited on Fuzz idea of sage dager devotion efect on DPS in endgame gear. It should be realy not far from demons if you consider it gets extra atack from wepon and after you refine it +12 the 75% vs 90% should make some diference.0 -
_Tsunami_ - Lost City wrote: »From what i seen to have one more demon bm/assassin make the runs faster than have a sage assassin that use subsea. In the first situation to kill a boss take 1 minute or less,in the second more. The limit of subsea is that last only 8 seconds and have 30 seconds of cooldown (spark has no cooldown,last 15 seconds and it's spammable or almost), but i never did it whit someone who has the sage version, so i can't say it.
Are you saying that sins don't gain enough chi to use both skills? That's funny.Sparking first,than using a chi pot (faster than IH,save some precious istants) and than subsea demon should be very cool... but i'll say it when/if i'll try it.
Once again,subsea strike do not stack whit extreme poison,and honestly i prefer have 30% amp to all and someone who can cast many sparks than 50% to all and someone who do normal attack later...
The thing is, Demon Subsea is equal to just using Extreme Poison twice, which anyone can do, so there's no point to it. Sage Subsea, on the other hand, is 20% higher. That means that the other 5 people in your squad are getting 15% more damage in that time. That's 15% per person, so if each of them has equal damage to the sin, then that's an extra 75% damage that you'll be doing.
And don't you dare argue that using Subsea makes you lose too much chi, it doesn't. And I'd probably die of laughter if you claimed that adding 75% damage to, say, 5x 5 APS characters does not even come close to that of a single Assassin.Teleport don't work,when u use it u are warped back. Not everywhere,but in most bosses's chambers it cannot be used,u must walk.
Oh well, it's still only 2 seconds every minute. If you really cannot spare that then you must be running with people who're way too tight on their time.The 25% reduction it's ok,but talking math wise the 33% to avoit damage it's not static,it's not 1/3. That mean every hit has 33% (high % i must admit) to do 1 damage,you can't be sure.Sometimes when i use focused all hits do 1 damage,sometimes never trigger. It's no 1/4,it's 25% for every hits.
It's math. If you have the 33% on at all times, then, on average, it reduces you damage by 33%. However, since it has a cooldown that means you can only have it on 2/3 of the time anyway, you end up with an average damage reduction 2/9, or 22%.
And by the way, I can say from experience that the difference is notable. I went from no Focused Mind to using maxed Focused Mind and I noticed the effect rather easily.About reduction,i don't know if the 25% stack whit BB or it's overwrited. If it stack yes,it's very cool,otherwise make the spark totally useless.
They don't stack. It's not "totally useless". Unless of course you always run with at least 1 cleric that will always BB you on all times. Which I personally doubt a lot.Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »this i dont get. if sage sins have better skills then demon then obviously you are going to get those better skills as sage right? and what is the point of not abusing that and spamming them? this is the reason why I and perhaps a few others beleive sage sin is purely for skill spamming. because they have skills that are better then demons in terms of DPH.
Because all of the best Sage skills are either support or passives. Focused Mind, Subsea Strike, Power Dash, Bloodpaint, all buffs or support.the subsea argument is iffy to me. ppl see "omg 50% amp" without realizing that demon subseas last for 15 seconds rater then 8. as far as i see it for a 5 APS character thats 35 more hits that you get in on a 30% amp effect. how is that bad or worst then sage subsea? if anything it seems BETTER then sage subsea if u calculate it in DPS. but im pretty sure no one tested that and just assumed sage was better because they see a huge number. but meh.
The thing is, Demon Subsea is just the same as having a 15 second Extreme Poison, their effect is exactly the same. And heck, I could put out multiple Extreme Poisons on the genie my Archer used, so what would be the point of Demon Subsea again when EP doesn't use chi nor time? So Demon Subsea is, in practice, useless. Sage Subsea, on the other hand, adds 20% on top of that, which affects all of your squad members. And if you have multiple high APS characters, that damage will be nuts.reducing max HP by 10% is godly. reducing attack speed by 65% is godly. but dont try to say "sage rib strike is better" or "demon ribstrike is better"
and dont tell me "go sage sin because sage bloodpaint>all other demon skills".
the reason I was leaning on going sage sin was to spam and abuse there skills based on DPH and sage CoD.
Rib Strike is a debatable skill. The 10% reduction is only really in effect if there are no Archers. Personally I'd believe Rib Strike is amazing if you ever plan to solo something, because dealing 10% of the life of most bosses isn't gonna happen in that 2.2 seconds it takes to channel and cast Rib Strike.
As for Bloodpaint, good luck harassing a Sage Assassins once every 30 minutes. That's like saying that unbuffed stats are meaningless since you can always bug someone on your faction or fl to give you the buffs.
And believe me, there are people who refuse to buff people. I'm one of them, I don't buff people just because they ask me.
And finally: CoD and skill spamming isn't really an effective way of using an assassin because the DPH you get is far outdone by the DPS you'd get by normal attacking. And also, sins out-DPS archers without even sparking.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
As for Bloodpaint, good luck harassing a Sage Assassins once every 30 minutes. That's like saying that unbuffed stats are meaningless since you can always bug someone on your faction or fl to give you the buffs.
It's 60min for Sage and Demon, but that's only my2 cents.
and i truly believe soon enough you will be off the FL of the sage assasins taht you constatly ask for buff and dont take then with you on the instance run
O and GL finding an sage assasin in the city crowd that has already got sage BP and wants to buff you.
Make not War make Peace b:bye0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Are you saying that sins don't gain enough chi to use both skills? That's funny.
The thing is, Demon Subsea is equal to just using Extreme Poison twice, which anyone can do, so there's no point to it. Sage Subsea, on the other hand, is 20% higher. That means that the other 5 people in your squad are getting 15% more damage in that time. That's 15% per person, so if each of them has equal damage to the sin, then that's an extra 75% damage that you'll be doing.
And don't you dare argue that using Subsea makes you lose too much chi, it doesn't. And I'd probably die of laughter if you claimed that adding 75% damage to, say, 5x 5 APS characters does not even come close to that of a single Assassin.
Oh well, it's still only 2 seconds every minute. If you really cannot spare that then you must be running with people who're way too tight on their time.
It's math. If you have the 33% on at all times, then, on average, it reduces you damage by 33%. However, since it has a cooldown that means you can only have it on 2/3 of the time anyway, you end up with an average damage reduction 2/9, or 22%.
And by the way, I can say from experience that the difference is notable. I went from no Focused Mind to using maxed Focused Mind and I noticed the effect rather easily.
They don't stack. It's not "totally useless". Unless of course you always run with at least 1 cleric that will always BB you on all times. Which I personally doubt a lot.
Yes i'm saying that,and please show me the proofs if you are able to.Make enough sparks to use 2 sage/demon eruption + subsea are 8 sparks,every 30 seconds. That's not for everyone,if you talk about people who spent 5k$ in the game ok,MAYBE they are able to do it,just think that 5 att/s don't pop up from nowhere after lvl 89,an uber gear it's needed,it's not for everyone.
Once again,here i see the lack of experiance in your words. Even if everyone can do 2 extreme poison usually people will not do,because the squad often prefer spam tangling mire (since the DD came mostly,if not only,from a physical source). That skill last 6 seconds whit a cooldown of 30 seconds,so are needed 5 genies to cover 30 seconds=genie busy,cannot do extreme poison. Yes a genie whit some points in mag can cover both but most of the time it's not needed.
You don't realize that an assassin is not a bm,not a veno, not a barb and not a wizard or psy. The assassin is the char in the game whit the greatest damage output per second (in a thread in the general section someone say that has almost x2 DPS of a bm when endgame), if the squad lose this source of damage lose a lot. So once again that math fail because the % of damage that a barb can do per second it's not like mine,most of the time i do 200% if not 300% of damage of a barb in tiger form.
Yes are 2 seconds, but that+demon spark+tangling mire+veno's amp damage+heaven's flame are the secrets of a frost runs of 15-20 minutes. You can do it in 40,60 or more minutes i you want. Once again i prefer get more in less time. Honestly stay 1 hour and half in frost it's sleepy,fast runs are FUNNY because yo need to sincronize whit squad,be a good player and sometimes you can almost die if someone waste even a second (like whit runewolf,i love to dd till the last second and kill it,it's the most funny part
)
Focused mind it's a great skill,a save @ss skill indeed but 33%=1/3 can be real on a long way (maybe on 1000 hits),not when the boss hit 7-9 times. In fast runs i don't find it useful at all but yes it's VERY stong and the sage version it's simply lovely.
Yes i have my "personal" cleric,and i'm her "personal" assassin. I never run TT whit randoms,so for me it's not a problem. Just find the right people and everything will go.
Once again,demon fit at perfection for my game style,i find it more useful for what i do.
Everyone has his experiance,i'm sharing mine whitout speculations, and in base of that can choose.
About sage BP,once i saw in world chat a thing that make me lol: an assassin that was selling 1 hour of sage BP for 300k :DDD
I find it a little bstard,like clerics who ask for money to ress,but indeed it's a way to make cash :DD
The problem was that i saw that just once, so or he quitted or simply it don't work (probably this :P)0 -
_Tsunami_ - Lost City wrote: »Yes i'm saying that,and please show me the proofs if you are able to.Make enough sparks to use 2 sage/demon eruption + subsea are 8 sparks,every 30 seconds. That's not for everyone,if you talk about people who spent 5k$ in the game ok,MAYBE they are able to do it,just think that 5 att/s don't pop up from nowhere after lvl 89,an uber gear it's needed,it's not for everyone.
.. I never meant to say that they can keep up both Subsea and triple spark at all times. I meant that they can do Subsea + triple spark, which isn't even an option for any other class. That's why Subsea is different from HF: it's not mutually exclusive with triple sparking.Once again,here i see the lack of experiance in your words. Even if everyone can do 2 extreme poison usually people will not do,because the squad often prefer spam tangling mire (since the DD came mostly,if not only,from a physical source). That skill last 6 seconds whit a cooldown of 30 seconds,so are needed 5 genies to cover 30 seconds=genie busy,cannot do extreme poison. Yes a genie whit some points in mag can cover both but most of the time it's not needed.
So wait, you're saying that you cannot spare 2 seconds to use Focused Mind but your squad will at least take 30 seconds to kill a boss?You don't realize that an assassin is not a bm,not a veno, not a barb and not a wizard or psy. The assassin is the char in the game whit the greatest damage output per second (in a thread in the general section someone say that has almost x2 DPS of a bm when endgame), if the squad lose this source of damage lose a lot. So once again that math fail because the % of damage that a barb can do per second it's not like mine,most of the time i do 200% if not 300% of damage of a barb in tiger form.
Oh please with you. I'm not saying that you should always use Subsea. I'm saying that using Subsea is the best option in a squad that has lots of DDs. And btw, even without sparking at all, an assassin still does more DPS than an Archer.Yes are 2 seconds, but that+demon spark+tangling mire+veno's amp damage+heaven's flame are the secrets of a frost runs of 15-20 minutes. You can do it in 40,60 or more minutes i you want. Once again i prefer get more in less time. Honestly stay 1 hour and half in frost it's sleepy,fast runs are FUNNY because yo need to sincronize whit squad,be a good player and sometimes you can almost die if someone waste even a second (like whit runewolf,i love to dd till the last second and kill it,it's the most funny part)
Again, I'm talking about using Subsea in a situation where you're not necessarily the only source of damage. For example, if you happen to have a BM and another sin in your squad.Focused mind it's a great skill,a save @ss skill indeed but 33%=1/3 can be real on a long way (maybe on 1000 hits),not when the boss hit 7-9 times. In fast runs i don't find it useful at all but yes it's VERY stong and the sage version it's simply lovely.
Yes, I never claimed that the 33% is guaranteed, but it is still there and it's very noticeable.
And yes, I have no doubt that if you only use Sage sins to get their BP and then don't even take them on the run, you will run out of willing Sage sins quite soon.
And again, I AM NOT SAYING THAT SAGE IS THE BETTER DPS CLASS. That's not the point, the point is that SAGE IS THE BETTER SUPPORTER. And in any setting where you have multiple DDs, the extra damage and survivability from the sage supports will be worth it.
Also, I am quite certain that a sage sin has better tankability. But now you'll just say that it's meaningless since you never get aggro because there are always other DDs that will somehow magically get the aggro from you.
And personally, when I looked at the skills, most of the Demon ones seemed useless to me. And picking my cultivation just because of Demon Spark is nuts. Especially since some of the sage skills are really useful.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
For all sage wants to be think on this:
Skills are great on Sage no doubt on that..
But what will be the price of geting all of them? 100mil,150 mil
For that price wouldnt be better to buy a int cape,tt99 int(boots writs, belt neck), and go demon??????
I really think demon win cause of this...
All sage wants to be talk about skill but they forget whow expensive they are and even sometimes very very hard to find..
While int gear is always on a shop near you.
Demon winsb:bye0 -
Must - Lost City wrote: »For all sage wants to be think on this:
Skills are great on Sage no doubt on that..
But what will be the price of geting all of them? 100mil,150 mil
For that price wouldnt be better to buy a int cape,tt99 int(boots writs, belt neck), and go demon??????
I really think demon win cause of this...
All sage wants to be talk about skill but they forget whow expensive they are and even sometimes very very hard to find..
While int gear is always on a shop near you.
Demon winsb:bye
Excuse me but what the heck are you talking about? You can use 300 Advanced Mystical Pages, or roughly 45,000,000 coins to get Dagger Devotion, Bloodpaint, Rib Strike and Rising Dragon Strike and it's guaranteed.
And by the way, you can actually farm Trophy Mode for a cape and come out much cheaper than the 35,000,000 it would take to buy the Energetic Robe: Lunar Glade.
Where the bloody hell do these people get numbers like 100,000,000 or 150,000,000 for skill books? That's ridiculous.
It's ridiculous to see people go "Demon Spark > All Sage skills".I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
The thing is, Demon Subsea is just the same as having a 15 second Extreme Poison, their effect is exactly the same. And heck, I could put out multiple Extreme Poisons on the genie my Archer used, so what would be the point of Demon Subsea again when EP doesn't use chi nor time? So Demon Subsea is, in practice, useless. Sage Subsea, on the other hand, adds 20% on top of that, which affects all of your squad members. And if you have multiple high APS characters, that damage will be nuts.
no. extreme has 20% damage amp and subsea has 30% and cancels extreme poiso, so its not the same thing at all. you use sage subsea for the 15 seconds, and once the 15 seconds is up you use extreme poison while its on cooldown. infact i have no idea why you would even use that as a argument if you consider how many genie skills are identical to other class skills, so id really rather you not use that kind of logic.Rib Strike is a debatable skill. The 10% reduction is only really in effect if there are no Archers. Personally I'd believe Rib Strike is amazing if you ever plan to solo something, because dealing 10% of the life of most bosses isn't gonna happen in that 2.2 seconds it takes to channel and cast Rib Strike.
As for Bloodpaint, good luck harassing a Sage Assassins once every 30 minutes. That's like saying that unbuffed stats are meaningless since you can always bug someone on your faction or fl to give you the buffs.
And believe me, there are people who refuse to buff people. I'm one of them, I don't buff people just because they ask me.
65% reduction in atk speed is also good as it reduces dps. so ya it is debatable since both of them are real good skills.
sage bloodpaint lasts for 1 hour from what i can tell. how hard is it to ask a sage sin that is in your squad for blood paint? infact why WOULDNT he buff you with blood paint? if i seen a *** hole sin like that in a squad he would be auto kicked for being a douch that doesnt support a squad. if you are one of those people that dont help a squad out or other ppl out then i have no idea how you can make it on teams without being known for being an *******. BP takes all of 2 seconds to case and it lasts for 1 hour. dont see any reason to not give someone the buff other then douchbaggery.And finally: CoD and skill spamming isn't really an effective way of using an assassin because the DPH you get is far outdone by the DPS you'd get by normal attacking. And also, sins out-DPS archers without even sparking.
if this is the case then ill just go demon. getting 5 APS on a sage sin without demon spark would just lead to even more expenses. if i was to compare its much easier and cheaper to get 5 APS on a demon sin with demon spark rather then on a sage sin with sage spark. but thanks for answering my question as this is what i wanted to know.
so since that is settled, all that leaves is the self buffs. and from what i can see most of the sage self buffs is mainly for survivability. they really dont add much in terms of DPS out put with exception of sage dagger devotion. demon skills seems to focus on more stuns/disabling skills and evasion.
both classes will be doing more or less the same amount of DPS. so i guess it comes down to if you want to tank or not. i like the sage focus mind and tidal protection, but im also loving the 5 extra second stuns on demon... that combined with genie stuns and our other seal/sleep skills would make for damn good locks.It's ridiculous to see people go "Demon Spark > All Sage skills"
like you said sage sins are mainly support while demons are the DDers. sage sins already lack -0.05 intervals from wearing daggers so they need to make that up from somewhere. demon spark is free and it cuts expenses by alot. for a sage sin they will have to find that -int from some other source becase sage spark wont give it to you. so that will leade to more expenses if you are trying to DD with sage sin or aiming for 5aps with sage sin for w/e reason.
so no im not saying demon spark>all sage skills. what i am saying is that demon spark is pretty damn vital to the DPS of a demon sin or ANYONE trying to get 5 APS.
at the end of the day, it will be sage sins trying to support and increase the DPS of demon sins, not vice versa. the class that will benefit most from the sage support skills IS the demon sin in a squad that consists of a sage sin and a demon sin along with other DDers. a sage casts sage subsea on a boss who do you think will benefit off of that? the person that does the most DPS. a demon that casts demon subsea who do u think will benefit from that? the person that does the most DPS. a sage that casts sage blood paint, who do you think will benefit from that? the person who has higher DPS and APS.
so both classes are vital. they help each other and are good, but u cant ignore facts. a demon sin will benefit more from a sage sin supporting in a squad.0 -
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »no. extreme has 20% damage amp and subsea has 30% and cancels extreme poiso, so its not the same thing at all. you use sage subsea for the 15 seconds, and once the 15 seconds is up you use extreme poison while its on cooldown. infact i have no idea why you would even use that as a argument if you consider how many genie skills are identical to other class skills, so id really rather you not use that kind of logic.
... Subsea is 8 seconds unless Demon. Also, Sage Subsea adds 50%, not 30%.
Also, as a Demon on 99, you'd just about be wasting time using Demon Subsea instead of EP.65% reduction in atk speed is also good as it reduces dps. so ya it is debatable since both of them are real good skills.
The difference is 15%, but I'd still argue that the 10% hp debuff is good when you don't have archers to use STA.sage bloodpaint lasts for 1 hour from what i can tell. how hard is it to ask a sage sin that is in your squad for blood paint? infact why WOULDNT he buff you with blood paint? if i seen a *** hole sin like that in a squad he would be auto kicked for being a douch that doesnt support a squad. if you are one of those people that dont help a squad out or other ppl out then i have no idea how you can make it on teams without being known for being an *******. BP takes all of 2 seconds to case and it lasts for 1 hour. dont see any reason to not give someone the buff other then douchbaggery.
I am not saying that. I'm saying that I don't buff randoms who go "plz giev sin buff!". I do buff my squad members, but I don't buff people who just want my buff and nothing more.
The other guy, on the other hand, is saying that Sage Bloodpaint is a moot argument because he can just ask a random Sage sin to buff his squad and then get rid of him.if this is the case then ill just go demon. getting 5 APS on a sage sin without demon spark would just lead to even more expenses. if i was to compare its much easier and cheaper to get 5 APS on a demon sin with demon spark rather then on a sage sin with sage spark. but thanks for answering my question as this is what i wanted to know.
Well that much should've been obvious. But unless you can already afford the 5 APS, you really shouldn't decide your cultivation based on something that might not even happen.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
I'm so sick of the demon sage ****. Who cares if some fishes want to go sage. Let them. There'll be less people to bid over skill books for.
I do have to add one thing. Unless you are 5 or 4 APS (not needing chi skill to keep sparking) and you have at least one high DPS DD in the squad, wasting 2 sparks for 30% amp then have to unsparked attack for the next round of 15 seconds is an act that should get you kick in the nuts. You are much better off using EP for the 20% and keep sparking.0 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »I do have to add one thing. Unless you are 5 or 4 APS (not needing chi skill to keep sparking) and you have at least one high DPS DD in the squad, wasting 2 sparks for 30% amp then have to auto attack for the next 15 seconds is an act that should get you kick in the nuts. You are much better off using EP for the 20% and keep sparking.
Yeah well that is dumb. I'd only use Subsea if:
a) someone else was the primary DD
b) I had chi skills ready to get me back to 3 sparks right awayat the end of the day, it will be sage sins trying to support and increase the DPS of demon sins, not vice versa. the class that will benefit most from the sage support skills IS the demon sin in a squad that consists of a sage sin and a demon sin along with other DDers. a sage casts sage subsea on a boss who do you think will benefit off of that? the person that does the most DPS. a demon that casts demon subsea who do u think will benefit from that? the person that does the most DPS. a sage that casts sage blood paint, who do you think will benefit from that? the person who has higher DPS and APS.
so both classes are vital. they help each other and are good, but u cant ignore facts. a demon sin will benefit more from a sage sin supporting in a squad.
Well, maybe that's also a point? I see most people going "OMFG 5 APS IS GODLY!" and rushing to Demon. Me, I see good support skills and better tankability on Sage, so I'm going Sage, as I don't see 5 APS in my future.
The way I see it: Sins already have the highest DPS, so unless there's a high APS character or a Demon sin the squad, I'll be primary DD. If there is a high APS char or a Demon sin, I'll do better to suppor them.
I have to admit that it's fun to watch people jumping at my throat for not advocating Demon and 5 APS as the sole purpose of an Assassin.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Subsea is 8 seconds unless Demon. Also, Sage Subsea adds 50%, not 30%.
Also, as a Demon on 99, you'd just about be wasting time using Demon Subsea instead of EP
what are you talking about? DEMON subsea strike lasts 15 seconds with 30% amp. how the hell is extreme poison better then demon subsea?
and sorry i meant to say demon subsea in that quote, not sage. my bad.Well that much should've been obvious. But unless you can already afford the 5 APS, you really shouldn't decide your cultivation based on something that might not even happen.
its going to be expensive either way so dont worry, ill save up for it like anyone else would. its not so expensive to where its impossible to get like warsoul weapons. and at endgame you have nothing better to do except farm for money and endgame equips or PK anyway. and sorry but im not the support type, id rather DD then just use support skills that help out other DDers.
like i said in the edit in my last post, at the end of the day the person that will benefit the MOST from sage support skills in a squad is a demon sin because they are the higher DPSers. give a demon sin sage bloodpaint and they will be more effective then a sage with sage bloodpaint. use sage subsea on a boss and the class that will benefit most from that and deal the most dmg is the demon sin.
sage sins and demon sins work very well to help each other out along with other DDers. there both useful and what i learned from this thread is that its based purely on taste. i like to DD, im not much of the support type. so i will go demon. but if i was the support type then id go sage because sage sins are extremely vital in helping improve the DPS of DD classes like demon sin or fist BMs. in any case, any squad is going to look for a sage sin and a demon sin in order to help out with fast runs.I'm so sick of the demon sage ****. Who cares if some fishes want to go sage. Let them. There'll be less people to bid over skill books for.
I do have to add one thing. Unless you are 5 or 4 APS (not needing chi skill to keep sparking) and you have at least one high DPS DD in the squad, wasting 2 sparks for 30% amp then have to unsparked attack for the next round of 15 seconds is an act that should get you kick in the nuts. You are much better off using EP for the 20% and keep sparking.
inner harmony is instant cast for +2 sparks? you guys really need to do your math and learn what ways to maximize your damage output rather then just blurt stupid stuff out. specially since most of you people are forgetting that some genies arnt built towards dex to maximize the use of extrem poison. in most cases tangling mire is better skill to use. really people, start to think ahead and outside of the box.
if you have a BM in a party, fighting a boss or w/e, then why would you use extreme poison to stack with HF rather then subsea? it makes no sense what so ever.0 -
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »inner harmony is instant cast for +2 sparks? you guys really need to do your math and learn what ways to maximize your damage output rather then just blurt stupid stuff out. specially since most of you people are forgetting that some genies arnt built towards dex to maximize the use of extrem poison. in most cases tangling mire is better skill to use. really people, start to think ahead and outside of the box.
And you think unless you are 4-5 APS, you can constantly spark as a sage after using Inner on Subsea? I don't need the math because I'm actually doing what we are talking about in game - perma triple sparking w/o 4+ APS. Realistically, an above average sage interval Sin will have 2.5-2.86 attack speed. At 2.5 attack speed, you'll need to rotate all 3 of your chi skill to keep triple sparking. What I'm talking about is using the chi from Inner to Subsea then having no chi to keep triple sparking afterward while other chi skills are in c/d. Yeah, your party will do 10% more damage than if you had use EP, but in the long run, that doesn't make up for the damage lost from you having no chi to triple spark after it runs out.
You don't need high DEX to have EP to be effective, as DEX increase its duration. Level 10 EP without DEX is plenty.0 -
Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »what are you talking about? DEMON subsea strike lasts 15 seconds with 30% amp. how the hell is extreme poison better then demon subsea?
and sorry i meant to say demon subsea in that quote, not sage. my bad.
Because Demon Subsea requires level 99. That means you should have access to Demon Spark and lots of -interval, up to -0.4. You know, -0.4 interval would give you 2.5 APS unsparked and 3.33 APS sparked. And believe me, at this point, you'll want to use EP and Demon Spark instead. That is, unless there 1 or more DDs with higher APS than that in your squad.its going to be expensive either way so dont worry, ill save up for it like anyone else would. its not so expensive to where its impossible to get like warsoul weapons. and at endgame you have nothing better to do except farm for money and endgame equips or PK anyway. and sorry but im not the support type, id rather DD then just use support skills that help out other DDers.
There are actually 2 Warsouls out there, one on Dreamweaver and one on Heaven's Tear. One's on an archer and the other is on a sin.like i said in the edit in my last post, at the end of the day the person that will benefit the MOST from sage support skills in a squad is a demon sin because they are the higher DPSers. give a demon sin sage bloodpaint and they will be more effective then a sage with sage bloodpaint. use sage subsea on a boss and the class that will benefit most from that and deal the most dmg is the demon sin.
Of course. However, if there is no Demon Sin present, then the only things that can compete with a Sage sin are higher APS fist BMs and clawrchers. And I'm still saying that using Sage Subsea if you're the primary DD is a waste of time.
And of course, the optimal would be to have both, that much is obvious as heck.inner harmony is instant cast for +2 sparks? you guys really need to do your math and learn what ways to maximize your damage output rather then just blurt stupid stuff out. specially since most of you people are forgetting that some genies arnt built towards dex to maximize the use of extrem poison. in most cases tangling mire is better skill to use. really people, start to think ahead and outside of the box.
Well, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I believe Okeano meant that if you're using Subsea instead of sparking and not using them together with good timing, it's a waste.And you think unless you are 4-5 APS, you can constantly spark as a sage after using Inner on Subsea? Realistically, an above average sage Sin will have 2.5-2.86 attack speed. At 2.5 attack speed, you'll need to rotate all 3 of your chi skill to keep triple sparking. What I'm talking about is using the chi from Inner to Subsea then having no chi to keep triple sparking afterward while other chi skills are in c/d. You don't need high DEX to have EP to be effective as DEX increase its duration. Level 10 EP without DEX is plenty.
I don't think that he, too, meant using Subsea at all times, just like me.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »And you think unless you are 4-5 APS, you can constantly spark as a sage after using Inner on Subsea? Realistically, an above average sage Sin will have 2.5-2.86 attack speed. At 2.5 attack speed, you'll need to rotate all 3 of your chi skill to keep triple sparking. What I'm talking about is using the chi from Inner to Subsea then having no chi to keep triple sparking afterward while other chi skills are in c/d. You don't need high DEX to have EP to be effective as DEX increase its duration. Level 10 EP without DEX is plenty.
i wasnt talking about sage sins first of all. but now that you mention it lets compare.
sage subsea 50% amp stacking with HF. now why would u choose a 20% amp instead that stacks with HF? why would u use a 20% amp AT ALL over a 50% amp? the damage out put, no matter what your attack speed is, will be higher then using AP.
oh and lets not forget, subsea actually does DAMAGE UPON HIT where as extreme poison does 0. this is ONTOP of subsea being a AoE. so subsea will appy the amp effect to everything with in a 8 meter range. making it HUGELY effective for AoEing.
it just does not make sense to use subsea over Extreme poison. and chi seriously is not a issue. sage sins actually have skills that gives them MORE chi then a demon sin.0
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