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Demon Blazing Scarab?

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  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    That's -48% channel reduction. The -channel gems decrease by 3% each. The +crit arrow works only for bows.

    fail, fail (topic is price of chickens in Peru).
    It's possible to get -3% channel through nirvana archangel leggings and -3% for wearing a pair of archangel items (would suggest sleeves + boots).

    Yeah, rather than go for nirvana pants which are already -3 forgoing dancing sparkle and trashing the nirvana sleeves.b:chuckle
    rank 6 magic sword decreases channel by 10%.

    What does this have to do with the price of chickens in Peru or a +1 crit arrow? My weapon is -12%ch.
    still unsure about rank 9 though.

    On topic: we're discussing chicken prices in Peru -pls.
    If the venomancer weapon is a wand then there's 20% chance to craft with 10% channel reduction. If it's a pataka the channel reduction in not avaiable.

    what drugs you on? -me wants!
    The build you follow is a lot better to wizards than venos as there are plenty of powerful spells with disgustingly long channel but short cast time.

    Maybe for pvp, but I focus more on +mag for my wiz for Dragon's Breath, and less MP issues. I tend to play my wiz very casually often doing other things at the same time. It's nice not having to watch the MP bar or even have it go down when spamming heals.
    Concerning the argument cast vs. channel there are spells which allow immense DPS increase by equipping -channel items but some either allow minimal change or no change at all. Venomous allows up to 33% channel reduction while blazing, ironwood and lucky scarab will achieve the highest possible DPS with -47% channel and noxious can only match cast time with -68% channel reduction which is nearly impossible to get.

    -Explain?

    The comparison is easier to understand with wizard spells though. Gush has 1s channel and 1s cast so there's absolutely no way to increase its DPS through channel reduction.

    -Oh, maybe this is where you're confused.
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  • Brael - DreamweaverBrael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Cast happens after channel. Venomous has a 2.5 sec cycle time, 1.5 channel then 1.0 cast. At 100% channel you would see a 60% increase in dps with it.

    In the case of a Beamhoof slicer, it does have 10% channeling which gives it a 4% channeling advantage, but the weapon refines poorly compared to other high level weapons. By the time you reach a +10 lunar, with around 50% channeling that 4% channeling advantage works out to about a 3.7% advantage, but weapon refines more than make up for that.

    As for the build being similar to a wizard, that's pretty much the idea if you're arcane.

    Oh, as for the veno rank 9, it's most likely useless. Our rank 8 sure is.
    http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/12651
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Oh, as for the veno rank 9, it's most likely useless. Our rank 8 sure is.
    http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/12651

    I plan on getting that pataka. -Why is it bad? It appears to have similar matk to my +10 tt99 weapon w/o refines, has +4 crit, and excellent pdef. It would probably be great for PK. 2 Stone of Savant's and it would have -6%ch. Patk isn't bad either.
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  • Brael - DreamweaverBrael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Well, look at a Glaive of Nirvana compared to it.
    First of all there's physical attack. The nirvana has an average of 773 while the rank 8 has 863.5. However, the rank 8 has an attack rate of 1/sec while the nirvana attacks 1.25 per second. So if you convert to per sec damage the nirvana is actually doing 966.25 while the rank 8 does 863.5.

    Second there's the magic attack. The nirvana averages 1328.5 while the rank 8 averages 1346.5. However, the nirvana refines better than the rank 8. The crossover point where the nirvana makes up the difference is at +7. After that, the nirvana is a better weapon.

    Third there's the mods. Because of the random nature of the nirvana there's certainly the potential to do worse than the rank 8, but there's also the potential to do way better within a couple of tries.

    Fourth there's the cost. Getting 200k rep from the 35k rep you would have for a rank 6 robe would run you 528 million coin. That's a good deal more expensive than the nirvana would be.

    The rank 8 was ok before Nirvana was opened up, but now it's a weapon that costs more and does less than other alternatives.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I have yet to pay for rep, have sold 99% of sell-able rep, and there's a lot of other stuff that make rep worth going for besides the weapon. Get to level 100+ and you'll see how easy it is to get rep making the cost of the weapon more a matter of time.
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  • Solandri - Heavens TearSolandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I was going by dpc. Thinking about it though, I probably should have gone with dps as blazing whether it's sage or demon is only going to be used during long fights. For general situations though, I think dpc is a more accurate number as soloing normal mobs or doing things such as bh's with a squad both result in very fast kills against all but bosses.
    Agreed, it's a more relevant figure for killing non-bosses. But I was going with DPS since everything I've written in this thread is predicated on the first phrase I wrote: Assuming the DOT lasts the full 30 seconds. If it's taking you that long to kill something, DPS is a better metric than DPC.
    tweakz wrote: »
    Are you basing that on your build which isn't typical? What about something like:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9520a9d904dd0082

    -except the actual mag on that is 564 and the matk: 11464-12820 ch is -54%
    As I said in the section you quoted, it is Brael's build with your weapon. Also, the build you posted would be most veno players' wet dream. I doubt even 1% will ever achieve that. And if they did, the cost of the Blazing skill book would be roundoff error in comparison.

    But to answer your question, with the build you've posted, Blazing actually compares even better than with Brael's build. With the build you've posted, the crossover point where Noxious exceeds Blazing's DPS is at 71% channel (as opposed to 67% channel before). You've got a couple things working against you with that build:

    First, the weapon attack in the build you posted is lower. I used a hypothetical +10 Mirage with +75 matk sapphire gem in the first calc. You removed the +75 matk gem and replaced it with -6% in channeling. Channeling was the independent variable I was using to equalize the two so adding channeling doesn't really matter for that type of comparison. Your -6% channel is closer to getting 71% than the non-channeling is to 67%, but they're both short of the crossover thresholds so it doesn't matter.

    Second, the build you've posted has higher matk than Brael's build. In terms of DPS, increasing matk actually helps Blazing more than Noxious. Since Noxious has a longer channel time, it gains less DPS per matk added than Blazing. Both spells gain the same DPC (damage per cast). But (using your build) Blazing does 100% matk in 1.58 sec, Noxious does 100% matk in 2.1 sec. That's equivalent to 63% matk per second for Blazing, 48% matk per second for Noxious. So higher matk helps Blazing more than it does Noxious.

    Bottom line is, for maximizing DPS with the build you've posted and assuming the DOT runs its full duration, Blazing is still the #3 spell to use, unless you've got the Demon Venomous debuff applied and the mob has ~25% wood resist or more.
    In the case of a Beamhoof slicer, it does have 10% channeling which gives it a 4% channeling advantage, but the weapon refines poorly compared to other high level weapons. By the time you reach a +10 lunar, with around 50% channeling that 4% channeling advantage works out to about a 3.7% advantage, but weapon refines more than make up for that.
    Biggest advantage of the Beamhoof slicer IMHO is that it's level 90, but gives you weapon attacks roughly equivalent to a L95 Lunar weapon, or TT99 weapon. That gives it a special place for heavy builds, since the mag requirement to wield it is 270 vs. 297 for TT99 and 300 for some Nirvana (oddly, some Nirvana weapons have a 285 mag requirement).

    Still, with the current state of the game and lack of availability of the bravery badges, the Lunar weapon is a lot cheaper. The Slicer will end up costing you nearly as much as a Nirvana. OTOH, unlike regular rank gear, it will go in your account stash. So you could pass it off to a cleric or wizard alt when you outgrow it.
    Well, look at a Glaive of Nirvana compared to it.
    First of all there's physical attack. The nirvana has an average of 773 while the rank 8 has 863.5. However, the rank 8 has an attack rate of 1/sec while the nirvana attacks 1.25 per second. So if you convert to per sec damage the nirvana is actually doing 966.25 while the rank 8 does 863.5.
    I still don't understand why they make a hybrid caster/melee class, then decide them to shaft them with the second-worst magic weapon type for melee. That plus the screwed up interval system really makes me think the person(s) who designed it had no clue how interval would work in practice.
    The comparison is easier to understand with wizard spells though. Gush has 1s channel and 1s cast so there's absolutely no way to increase its DPS through channel reduction. Stone Rain has 2s channel and 1.4s cast, allowing 30% channel reduction, which makes the spell a lot better. Demon Divine Pyrogram has 1s cast but 2.5s channel (sage and lvl10 versions come with 3s channel) so with 60% channel reduction it's possible to gain massive DPS.
    As Brael pointed out, the channel and cast delays run sequentially, one after the other. So going from 0% to 100% channel with Gush would reduce total casting time from 2 sec to 1 sec. It's the cast delay and the cooldown timer which run concurrently.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Regarding use of Blazing when on 2 mobs or more: I realized I was using the AoE of Noxious for anyway which makes Blazing useless there as well. I've found that I got in the habit of using Blazing so much that I'm going to have to remove it from the quickbar. Even if it were giving me 3rd best dps, more often than not it's reducing dps. I'm not sure if it's chan/cast time is relevant either since it's not a spammable skill. Hits per kill is going to weigh far greater on actual DPS. Other things to consider: how is it affected by Amp / HF? -I'm sticking with my pov that coin/ spirit are wasted on this skill. That ~3m could be turned into a lot more coin if saved / invested better.
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  • Solandri - Heavens TearSolandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    I'm not sure if it's chan/cast time is relevant either since it's not a spammable skill.
    It becomes relevant when you've put together a chain of spells whose duration exceeds the cooldown. Basically, to maximize DPS against a boss, you spark as frequently as you can, and fire off the spells as quickly as their cooldown timers allow, giving preference to the spells with higher DPS.
    Other things to consider: how is it affected by Amp / HF?
    Quoting the very first reply I made in this thread: The catch is that the DOT portion of the damage is not multiplied by damage amplifiers (it does benefit from mdef debuffs at the time it was cast).
    -I'm sticking with my pov that coin/ spirit are wasted on this skill. That ~3m could be turned into a lot more coin if saved / invested better.
    I've no argument with that. A lot of this is dependent on playstyle. My playstyle is to relax when fighting regular mobs (they die quickly even if you spam Venomous), and optimize when fighting bosses. So Blazing being #3 is a pretty big deal to me. But if your playstyle is the opposite, then there's nothing wrong with skipping Blazing.

    Against regular mobs, I frequently don't even use Lucky. I save it for the stun in case someone pulls aggro.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    It becomes relevant when you've put together a chain of spells whose duration exceeds the cooldown. Basically, to maximize DPS against a boss, you spark as frequently as you can, and fire off the spells as quickly as their cooldown timers allow, giving preference to the spells with higher DPS.

    Best dps is done manually for veno.
    Against regular mobs, I frequently don't even use Lucky. I save it for the stun in case someone pulls aggro.

    If you want max dps w/o getting hit: You want Lucky before the last 1-2 hits. -Careful timing of aggro theft.
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  • Brael - DreamweaverBrael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    I have yet to pay for rep, have sold 99% of sell-able rep, and there's a lot of other stuff that make rep worth going for besides the weapon. Get to level 100+ and you'll see how easy it is to get rep making the cost of the weapon more a matter of time.

    After 35k rep, there's no point to going higher other than because you want a ring (there's better for an arcane veno) or because you want a rank 8 weapon (as shown, there's better). 165,000 additional rep even if you get 132 rep per day from BH (2x 66 rep) will take 1250 days. It's safe to say that BH alone isn't going to provide you with the necessary reputation.

    Aside from BH there's two other meaningful rep sources for you. First there's FB59. Assuming you don't tank everything yourself (the potion cost will add up) you're limited by pet aggro in here, just like in Eden. The clear time for Water (there's no point to doing water+fire like at lower levels, the time the boss takes to kill is a significant hit to rep gain at this point) runs about 15 minutes I believe (ran it to test a month or so ago but I didn't write down the result). And brings in 24.03 rep on average. Since you can do this 4 times an hour that's 96.12 rep per hour.

    If you're wondering how I came to those numbers, back when I was farming 59 in the low-mid 60's I made a spreadsheet to calculate rep per wing, here it is. http://www.evilgamer.net/utilities/59drops.xls

    The other worthwhile source for rep is tokens. Our grind spots are fairly similar but because we do different areas our kill rates per hour may be different. In the spot I use I get 11,000 pet exp (~730 kills) in a 90 minute session and have a coin intake rate of 1.5 million coin per hour. At the current buy rate for tokens on my server of 9500 each (yes, people successfully buy at below 10k here) that works out to 493.42 rep per hour if all profits are poured into officer badges.

    Also, just because it's available (but not necessarily a good choice) if you instead choose to give up coin and run one man armies, even assuming you can manage the same kill rate (not possible) and that there's no time lost running back and forth to the quest giver, 730 kills per hour would be enough for 10.14 quests which is 30.42 rep.

    For arguments sake, lets say a nirvana weapon costs 250 mil. In that grind spot you could generate the coin in 167 hours. That same coin could also be used to buy 82401.14 rep. So not only is the nirvana cheaper and stronger, but you can grind it out quite a bit faster as well.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    After 35k rep, there's no point to going higher other than because you want a ring (there's better for an arcane veno) or because you want a rank 8 weapon (as shown, there's better). 165,000 additional rep even if you get 132 rep per day from BH (2x 66 rep) will take 1250 days. It's safe to say that BH alone isn't going to provide you with the necessary reputation.

    Aside from BH there's two other meaningful rep sources for you. First there's FB59. Assuming you don't tank everything yourself (the potion cost will add up) you're limited by pet aggro in here, just like in Eden. The clear time for Water (there's no point to doing water+fire like at lower levels, the time the boss takes to kill is a significant hit to rep gain at this point) runs about 15 minutes I believe (ran it to test a month or so ago but I didn't write down the result). And brings in 24.03 rep on average. Since you can do this 4 times an hour that's 96.12 rep per hour.

    If you're wondering how I came to those numbers, back when I was farming 59 in the low-mid 60's I made a spreadsheet to calculate rep per wing, here it is. http://www.evilgamer.net/utilities/59drops.xls

    The other worthwhile source for rep is tokens. Our grind spots are fairly similar but because we do different areas our kill rates per hour may be different. In the spot I use I get 11,000 pet exp (~730 kills) in a 90 minute session and have a coin intake rate of 1.5 million coin per hour. At the current buy rate for tokens on my server of 9500 each (yes, people successfully buy at below 10k here) that works out to 493.42 rep per hour if all profits are poured into officer badges.

    Also, just because it's available (but not necessarily a good choice) if you instead choose to give up coin and run one man armies, even assuming you can manage the same kill rate (not possible) and that there's no time lost running back and forth to the quest giver, 730 kills per hour would be enough for 10.14 quests which is 30.42 rep.

    For arguments sake, lets say a nirvana weapon costs 250 mil. In that grind spot you could generate the coin in 167 hours. That same coin could also be used to buy 82401.14 rep. So not only is the nirvana cheaper and stronger, but you can grind it out quite a bit faster as well.

    I did say wait til you're 100+ and see how easy it is. There is no rep for OMA at 100+. There is great rep for FB99, and every FB is now available for you to get rep from. Also, everything you do to get rep is profitable and a break from monotonous grinding. Rep is a side benefit of the things I really like in the game. BH Metal and Fire also have rep drops (though they're sell-able).

    Sure, you could farm Nirvana faster but you'll have plenty of coin to imbue and refine the rank gear when you get it, and farming rep is funner.
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