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To buy a Herc... or not to buy a Herc

Glis - Lost CityGlis - Lost City Posts: 84 Arc User
edited September 2010 in Venomancer
I'd like to hear some opinions, regarding going for a herc or staying with a glacial walker and going for channeling items first.
Well, i'm playing since 2-3 months now and i've made like 15mil coins so far, however i can run 2-2 single in about 40 minutes with a glacial walker, but it's boring since i always have to rely on healing because he would die within 1 special attack and 2 normal attacks from feng and wurlord, i can cast my Ironwood Scarab only a few times within the fight.
So with channeling rings and gloves, i might get -18% and could attack a few more times to kill the bosses faster in order to save some time.

And well, thats it, i dont know what to do^^
Any kind of help/suggestions are appreciated
Post edited by Glis - Lost City on
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    That is probably a question that many Venomancers have come across, including myself. You should consider a lot of things before deciding.

    First of all you need to think about whether you will spend real life money or in-game coins for it. If it's real life money you need to be careful with the decision as spending $180 isn't a small amount. Think about whether you can afford it or not. If it's in-game coins you have to remember that you'll need to grind, farm materials & herbs, do a lot of TT runs and merchanting. That will take time (depending on how much you gain in a day this could be 3-5 months or so). You might prefer to enjoy the game as it is than spend a lot of time grinding.

    Secondly, you should consider whether you really want it or need it. Don't force yourself to buy it if it's everyone else who tells you to do so. Buy it if you want it. Think of what a Hercules can offer to you.
    Hercules is not a must, it's just very demanded. Venomancers with Hercules will always have an easier time to get into squads (mostly speaking about random ones), they can also solo TT and make money (though it's not as profitable as it used to be), they are able to solo more instances than non-herc Venomancers and thus be able to help their friends and faction more. You can solo more bosses, do AOE with less risk of grabbing aggro (due to the Reflect skill).
    However, whether you have a Hercules or not, will not affect your natural role in squad as a Venomancer. The role of luring mobs/bosses, debuffing, handling guards or walkers, passing chi where needed (depending on squad/instance) and of course DD (besides for DD there are much better support/debuff/DPS pets than Hercules). The Herc will just open for you a new role: the tank. It will most likely also make your squad feel safer because they have a back-up tank if things goes wrong.

    So in conclusion think about the advantages you get with a Hercules and if you want or need them for yourself. Remember that the Hercules should be something you choose to buy to help yourself. You must not feel obligated to buy it for the sake of others.
    Also, if you end up buying it remember not to let anyone use you as a tool and have you do everything in squad. Make them appreciate your skills not pet. The pet doesn't make the Venomancer after all!
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  • Silest - SanctuarySilest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    However, whether you have a Hercules or not, will not affect your natural role in squad as a Venomancer.
    Quoting for emphasis.. as many venos think they are not a good veno unless they have a herc.

    The reason I bought a herc is because I know I'll be on my own in the game. Not getting help from factions and stuff(and it's why I dont wont one anymore).

    He's never let me down and even though he's my primary pet tank, I have not lost my ability to play as a veno with other pets.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Your primary role in a squad as any character is to speed up execution and reduce costs.

    Because of the cost of a Herc/ Nix: people will develop negativity towards them so much to the point that they're lvl 100+ and could earn one in a week and they'd still refuse to get one. They convinced themselves just like others do with their gods.
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  • tidenuttidenut Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I'd like to hear some opinions, regarding going for a herc or staying with a glacial walker and going for channeling items first.
    Well, i'm playing since 2-3 months now and i've made like 15mil coins so far, however i can run 2-2 single in about 40 minutes with a glacial walker, but it's boring since i always have to rely on healing because he would die within 1 special attack and 2 normal attacks from feng and wurlord, i can cast my Ironwood Scarab only a few times within the fight.
    So with channeling rings and gloves, i might get -18% and could attack a few more times to kill the bosses faster in order to save some time.

    And well, thats it, i dont know what to do^^
    Any kind of help/suggestions are appreciated



    With a herc you can solo squad mode. So more drops + more bosses = more money. Just to give an example solo mode 2-2 I can cast 3 times before a heal with herc. While you are spam healing with GW.
  • Silest - SanctuarySilest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    But there are some bosses not even he can handle(pole).
  • Brael - DreamweaverBrael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Get the herc first. The simple fact is, a herc is a bigger upgrade than 80 million worth of channeling gear and weapon refines.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    But there are some bosses not even he can handle(pole).

    Herc's have tanked Polearm.
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  • Silest - SanctuarySilest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    Herc's have tanked Polearm.
    Mine can't do it at 77.

    It was going at good that first time I tried, then pole did some attack that wiped him out.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Mine can't do it at 77.

    It was going at good that first time I tried, then pole did some attack that wiped him out.

    You probably just need a way to cancel the debuff.
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  • Heavenberry - DreamweaverHeavenberry - Dreamweaver Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Mine can't do it at 77.

    It was going at good that first time I tried, then pole did some attack that wiped him out.

    " You probably just need a way to cancel the debuff. "
    Psst, psst, learn earthquake. >:3
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  • Silest - SanctuarySilest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    *makes b-line to watcher of earth*
    *learns earthquake and levels it up*
    >:D
  • MystiMonk - SanctuaryMystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I would go for Phoenix instead if I were seeing as you are on PvP server and a Faction will more likely demand that you get one.There is even a Faction on my server that Venos have either Phoenix or Herc.

    You could do it 50/50 with coins buying from catshops FF and buy the rest in battle packs at 87 you could of already had it.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Wouldn't EQ place you in range of Polearm's short range AoE?
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  • Solandri - Heavens TearSolandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    Wouldn't EQ place you in range of Polearm's short range AoE?
    Since there's no way to tell while he's casting if he's casting the pdef debuff or the short range AOE, you have to interrupt them all. So the AOE generally gets interrupted too. It seems to have a slightly shorter channeling time than the pdef debuff so be forewarned that it might slip through now and then. But Polearm seems to be pretty easy to interrupt. Gaurnob's AOE is really quick casting.

    Unless your group is really, really fast at killing, you're not going to be able to sustain interrupts with a single earthquake genie. It will run out of energy before Polearm dies. Minimum is 2 (which both have to have very high magic). 3 is more comfortable (generally ~50 magic each is enough), and you have to establish an interrupting order.
  • King_Solomon - Heavens TearKing_Solomon - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,341 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    polearm/gaurnob skill channel can be interrupted but not the debuff. i'm yet to see a hercules succeed tanking polearm at lvl below 95.
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  • MANray_ - SanctuaryMANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    polearm/gaurnob skill channel can be interrupted but not the debuff. i'm yet to see a hercules succeed tanking polearm at lvl below 95.

    THIS. While many herc'ed venos report tanking 59 and 79 at their BH level range, 69 is usually thought impossible precisely because of Pole. The closest herc comes to tanking Pole that i know of would be an herc team (3-4) taking turns with aggro. It does seem unpractical as, given the price of meat type food, most venos are reluctant to risk their hercs in such fashion. It could very well be cost effective however...
  • Silest - SanctuarySilest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I have tanked all bosses in 59 with "entry level" herc..

    79 is probably out of the question mainly because I wont be brave enough to try.


    And I found out on my own about EQ's range. Ahahaha... that's too close for comfort.

    Well I guess I'll never be able to save the group if the barb/bm/cleric dies to pole. I can tell just from that one battle why he's the most talked about boss in bh69 ~_~.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I was under the impression that barbs and bms could cancel the debuff sparing themselves repairs.
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  • Solandri - Heavens TearSolandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    polearm/gaurnob skill channel can be interrupted but not the debuff. i'm yet to see a hercules succeed tanking polearm at lvl below 95.
    You can interrupt the debuff just fine. A good barb can interrupt every channel so he's never debuffed and the group is never AOEd. It's pretty obvious when the debuff lands since there's a graphic of a huge poleaxe flying towards the tank.

    I think we managed to pull off a herc-kill of Pole with just two hercs, no clerics, and a bunch of earthquake genies to interupt. It was a long time ago and the details are fuzzy. We missed one interrupt and one herc died, but the second herc picked up tanking and we didn't miss any more interrupts. I remember commenting in squad chat that we were one missed interrupt away from a wipe.
  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I believe I've read of Pole being tanked by serial suicide hercs (2 hercs, when one gets killed the other takes up the slack while the first gets revived, healed and buffed, and sent back into the fight before the second goes down.) Also, I've read of serial stow and resummon when the debuff hits.
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  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I did the serial stow technique with a friend when we were about 83-85 and it worked quite well. As long as you stow while he's channelling the debuff, you're fine. If you're lucky, you can even get him stowed before he finishes channelling and cancel the attack (more useful for cancelling the aoe).

    It certainly takes timing and coordination, but it's very feasible.
  • MANray_ - SanctuaryMANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Unfortunately the conditions required for an herc to tank (2-3 genies with Earthquake and statted with high mag) may be more difficult to find than a willing Cleric. The same could be said of an herc team. That both techniques do require some skill (because of timing) hardly makes this an option for PUGs, although is good to know a squad could manage under exceptional circumstances.
  • kenleekenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    or you can try to get herc back to you every time debuff land and let boss atk at range for a bit while you heal. i do that at phlebo but i didnt tried a full solo run in bh69

    anyway, why bother with bh69 bosses? on my alt i kept all the possible coins spent on wines and used to buy hypers. less than 10 hypers for lvl 80-90, like 800k or less coins used while going from 80 to 90 only from bh69 would probably cost me at least 2mil coins. not all the people demand herc for frost, especially your faction plus there is more fun than bh69
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    The ONLY way to tank polearm with a herc that doesn't include other expensive skills to replace another (bless) is to cancel his channeling every time (since you can't predict which one of the spells he channel will be the armor/magic break. Soon as his axe comes down the herc gets one-shot.

    That being said, get the herc asap. You can always get/make more channeling gear. The -6 (and above) necklaces/belts/rings are by far the easiest to make yourself, especially 90+, when you can solo summon bots needed to make them with a herc.
  • MystiMonk - SanctuaryMystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I would say most of you are going off topic talking about pole and not answering the question.I would buy Phoenix or if you want a herc so bad get it.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • volstvolst Posts: 180
    edited September 2010
    Don't buy the herc, just make an aps fist bm.
  • Solandri - Heavens TearSolandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    volst wrote: »
    Don't buy the herc, just make an aps fist bm.
    I know 3-5 APS BM/archer/assassins are all the rage now, but they're much, much, much more expensive than a herc.

    Right now, with gold at 430k, a herc will cost you about 80 million.

    To make an APS fist BM requires:
    Deicide (fist w/ -0.1 interval) = ~60 mil
    Gold TT90 or TT99 sleeves = ~8 mil last time I priced it, or ~15 mil
    Another gold TT99 armor piece = ~10-60 mil
    Lunarglade cape = ~40 mil
    Pan Gu tome or Love Up and Down = ~150 mil or 200+ mil
    Nirvana leggings = ~30 mil + 250 uncanny crystals = almost 200 mil

    All told, you're looking in the neighborhood of 8-10x the cost of a herc to make an APS fist BM.
  • kenleekenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    for start you can forget about nirvana pants and pan gu creator/love up and down and farm it the last. get all in time. i saw +7 deicide for 75mil on my server just few days ago. a lunar cape usually run for 35mil. thats for starting, rest of mats (TT90/TT99) can be farmed with friends/faction in time.
    anyway thats less than a herc/nix combined and not to mention that spending on herc usually means that you forget to improve your equipment. a herc will provide you better equipment but slower. a bm for example, a good one, is always welcome to do dragons after each cooldown and not to mention deicide alone have already good dps
  • Quilue - SanctuaryQuilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Why would you roll a 5.0 BM just to farm?

    Here it is: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d39a067be33eae54

    Cheapest way to 5.0 just use an archer or sin. Who cares if it's less DPS than a BM or a dagger sin, are you here to farm or show off? If to farm, just good DPS is enough. Actually I'd say roll sin for blood paint and wolf emblem. Put a bit more into strength and don't really need that tome either. Fill in the blanks for helm and leggings. If you really want to be cheap go Frost Fist, which puts you at 4.0 sparked and the proc lets you do decent damage as well as helps you survive.

    If anything this should at least let you have some fun in COA

    However, note that just because you have permaspark doesn't automatically mean you can now farm like mad. If you don't have the hp and defense, you're just going to take aggro and die like a piece of ****. You must invest in order to make money. As you get better gear, you can get into fast TT/Nirv squads. Still, this is cheaper than a 5.0 BM.
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  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    5aps is over rated. Sure, it's good for farming Nirvana (when you get to 100). If you put as much into a veno you should be able to make about as much coin in other ways (maybe more because everyone is doing the -int thing).
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