Is there anyway to hold aggro

Silest - Sanctuary
Silest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
edited September 2010 in Venomancer
with herc.. because bash does not cut it -.-. And it's up to level(and I have doubts lvl5 will make a difference when he gets 80).

There are few times I hold it for a while, but then an archer rips it and keeps it.

And its a lost cause against bms always.

Actually after todays BH, I dont think there is a solution.
Post edited by Silest - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • Siuki - Dreamweaver
    Siuki - Dreamweaver Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    pets are good only at holding agro against [?] mobs/bosses. in bhs with normal bosses, everyone have to wait till herc builds agro and also watch their damage, can't overdd when pet is tanking
  • Shulkie - Dreamweaver
    Shulkie - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,529 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    if folks can't understand that

    A. pets need to build up a head of steam to hold agro
    B. legendary pets only have 1 free skill slot in which to add an agro skill - so cant really spam bash then flesh ream for example like you could with a glacial walker or magmite
    C. they need to monitor their attacks to stop stealing agro - unlike a barb, a pet cannot spark up to counteract overzealous DDs
    D. Even Barbs can struggle to hold aggro against 5aps sins/bms and overzelous DDs

    if they can't understand that, let them tank the boss for a bit and see how well they survive.
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  • BryFoo - Raging Tide
    BryFoo - Raging Tide Posts: 129 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Level 5 Bash will make a difference when you get it imo.

    I had the same problem with pulling aggro from my Herc (still do sometimes) lol
    I find that the timing of my attacks helped a ton! Make sure to hit with Ironwood BEFORE your Herc hits it with Bash. Sometimes Ironwood will be your worst enemy for stealing aggro. By the time you hit it with Fire (Chi Build) and Venemous (Chi Build) your Herc should be almost ready to Bash again but you should have time to get that Ironwood in before he does.

    Hope that helps you out a little.
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  • Lythianaa - Dreamweaver
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I usually get my herc to attack the monster, and once it bashes once, i will use blazing to build chi. Then I have a tendency to just click heal pet once. By that time, herc bashes again. That way, I usually don't steal aggro.

    If I am impatient though, I will start with venomous and immediately follow with ironwood. Guaranteed stolen aggro all the time from my herc. :P
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  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    A DD should know better than to go all out with an herc tanking. It really is their fault, not yours. Other than warning people about it there's not much you can do.
  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    lv70 sin stole aggro from lv99 herc...b:shutup
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • LadyMaraJade - Sanctuary
    LadyMaraJade - Sanctuary Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    i use a armoured Bear lvl 89*easy to take aggro from* in bh's and Fb's But with [?] bosses he even take aggro off a barb lvl 100 and keeped it b:chuckle
    everyone just has to watch how much damage they do to the boss other wise they steal arggo b:surrender
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  • Silest - Sanctuary
    Silest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Overzealous DD is definitely the right term. Makes me think they do it as some sort of status.. "LOL I can outank herc!"

    Lots of them did that at Zimo, and they paid the price by dying very fast.

    Anyway, yeah I do time my ironwoods with bash..

    It's a bit depressing to see him out there reduced to nothing more than a dps pet -.-.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Your herc won't get better over time with aggro, infact it will get worse. This isn't something specific to hercs, but rather all pets... their aggro doesn't increase at the same rate as player damage output (barbs suffer from this too). The difference with a herc though is that because it only has one aggro skill it's far more noticeable.

    If you're tanking a BH with a herc, the only solution is for everyone to throttle their dps or pick a DD class to tank. Infact, it's for this very reason that I leveled up a dark wanderer. I got sick of squads acting dumb in BH's because they saw a herc, and the best solution I could come up with was to simply not use it.

    As a caster, I've found that against regular mobs the best thing you can do to not have a problem with the hercs damage output, is to have really high damage output yourself. The reason is that Bash+melee+reflect will hold aggro against two attacks or so (3 or 4 at lower levels). So you need to kill the mob on the attack that takes aggro. The way I do this is IW then venomous, then lucky, and then another venomous (if the mob lives that long). The reason is because I can use the stun from lucky to stop the mob and give me time for one additional attack.

    At lower levels where lucky isn't quite so reliable or powerful (I have the sage one, that extra 1 sec makes a big difference) you're better off not using it with a herc. The stun won't save you, and will infact add additional aggro for no real gain. If you insist on using it, use it as a finishing attack only. However the advice still holds. You have two options with a herc really. Either you lower your damage output to what it can handle, or you raise it to the point that it doesn't matter if the mob runs for you after a couple seconds.
    lv70 sin stole aggro from lv99 herc...

    A 58 psychic stole aggro from mine.
  • SeaStorm - Heavens Tear
    SeaStorm - Heavens Tear Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Ok...

    BHs are another story all together regarding aggro.

    a) all mobs/bosses in BHs are NOT ? therefore as the squad is usually 10+ lvls over the BH mobs it's going to be aggro ping pong (btw everytime I saw someone say oh herc can tank BH I just laughed and said aggro ping pong not herc tank)

    b) in that type of a situation unless ALL squad members drop weapons and watch DD they will steal off hercs period.

    c) with the amt of DPS that interval can get archers, sins, and bms up to get used to having them steal off your herc

    d) nirvana weapons will steal off your herc on a ? boss in TT (I had a barb do this) then again so will DPS bms (at least the claw/fist ones)

    e) if the squad hasn't figured out point a by now they're idiots
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  • Ladyhellcatq - Dreamweaver
    Ladyhellcatq - Dreamweaver Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    This has nothing to do with anything. They do not make a pet that can hold agro in todays world of cash shop items,jones blessings,etc. Go read in Barbs section...They cant even keep agro these days....
    The problem is everyone wanting (and having)that ultimate kick butt hard hitting weapon or skill or both.
    Amazes me that anyoe would get rid of delete such a good and expensive skill as pounce to put bash on a herc. If i personally was taking agro from my herc I'd try No.1 take off jones blessing No.2 Use less refined weapon. etc...etc...
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Actually, if the ? mobs is earth, I can take it off my herc now. And I'm using a TT90 gold weapon with a +5 refine.
    Amazes me that anyoe would get rid of delete such a good and expensive skill as pounce to put bash on a herc.

    The problem with pounce is that the cooldown on it makes it rather poor aggro over time. While it holds aggro sufficently against the mob it's used on, you can only use it once in several mobs because there's a 61.5 second cycle time on the skill.
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    My then 69 HA/AA veno was recently on a Wraithgate 202020 with an 88 veno. We both had same level hercs; hers had pounce, mine had bash 4.

    The first run, I was pulling with my eldergoth for her to catch, and my eldergoth (bash 4) was pretty consistently holding aggro from her herc. Toward the end of the run I asked what the fourth skill on the herc was.

    We switched roles on the second run.
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  • Silest - Sanctuary
    Silest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    SeaStorm - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Ok...

    c) with the amt of DPS that interval can get archers, sins, and bms up to get used to having them steal off your herc

    Yeah I have come to accept it.
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Ladyhellcatq - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Amazes me that anyoe would get rid of delete such a good and expensive skill as pounce to put bash on a herc. If i personally was taking agro from my herc I'd try No.1 take off jones blessing No.2 Use less refined weapon. etc...etc...

    Pounce is a bad skill to keep aggro with. That's why everyone takes it off and replaces it with Bash.
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  • King_Solomon - Heavens Tear
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,341 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Pounce draws no aggro at all.

    Bash is a worthy skill in terms of damage but the aggro effect is not enough. The only alternative is Roar, which is a true aggro skill but deals no damage. Even then several venos argue the 15s cooldown is too long to prevent bms and assassins from playing aggro ping-pong.
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  • LloydAsplund - Sanctuary
    LloydAsplund - Sanctuary Posts: 3,899 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Also (if my memory isnt that bad), pounce is useless on a pve pet such as a herc. It's cooldown is WAY too long to be using against regular questing/grinding. And, it doesnt work against bosses, so its pretty much useless here. Now, removing pounce on the nix is a different story.
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  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    LloydAsplund - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Also (if my memory isnt that bad), pounce is useless on a pve pet such as a herc. It's cooldown is WAY too long to be using against regular questing/grinding. And, it doesnt work against bosses, so its pretty much useless here. Now, removing pounce on the nix is a different story.

    Honestly, the Pounce isn't totally useless in PVE, but it's useless for tanking bosses since they're immune to stun. Since herc is primarily a boss tanker...well, he's a damn sight useless with Pounce.

    Now, Pounce IS really nice for the shovels in Lunar to help keep the stunlock on them up.
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  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Pounce draws no aggro at all.

    Bash is a worthy skill in terms of damage but the aggro effect is not enough. The only alternative is Roar, which is a true aggro skill but deals no damage. Even then several venos argue the 15s cooldown is too long to prevent bms and assassins from playing aggro ping-pong.

    This is untrue. There's the skill aggro, the stun aggro (if it lands) and the aggro from hitting 25% faster for 15 seconds. In truth, on a per use basis Pounce generates MORE aggro than Bash. Of course that assumes the mob lives the full 16.5 seconds it takes Pounce to run. The real drawback to Pounce is that it has a 61.5 sec cycle time. When I grind lately I kill about 500 mobs per hour, when I was lower level it was about 300 per hour. Depending on which statistic you want to go with, that's 1 mob every 7.2 seconds or 1 mob every 12 seconds. Both are significantly faster than what Pounce can keep up with.
    Also (if my memory isnt that bad), pounce is useless on a pve pet such as a herc. It's cooldown is WAY too long to be using against regular questing/grinding. And, it doesnt work against bosses, so its pretty much useless here. Now, removing pounce on the nix is a different story.

    The stun doesn't work against bosses, but you're not using pounce for the stun... you're using it for the quicken effect and you still get that, even when a boss resists the stun.
  • King_Solomon - Heavens Tear
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,341 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    This is untrue. There's the skill aggro, the stun aggro (if it lands) and the aggro from hitting 25% faster for 15 seconds. In truth, on a per use basis Pounce generates MORE aggro than Bash. Of course that assumes the mob lives the full 16.5 seconds it takes Pounce to run. The real drawback to Pounce is that it has a 61.5 sec cycle time. When I grind lately I kill about 500 mobs per hour, when I was lower level it was about 300 per hour. Depending on which statistic you want to go with, that's 1 mob every 7.2 seconds or 1 mob every 12 seconds. Both are significantly faster than what Pounce can keep up with.
    The stun effect on Pounce won't draw aggro unlike the stun skills on characters. I must agree that the attack rate increase helps with pet DPS on normal attack though.
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  • Silest - Sanctuary
    Silest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Pounce draws no aggro at all.

    Bash is a worthy skill in terms of damage but the aggro effect is not enough. The only alternative is Roar, which is a true aggro skill but deals no damage. Even then several venos argue the 15s cooldown is too long to prevent bms and assassins from playing aggro ping-pong.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but, Roar however is not the barbarian version... It just resets, meaning you're gonna have it for a few seconds, only to lose it again -.-. Despite bash not being enough, I'd still rather place my bets on bash.

    It's a lose lose situation. I've accepted that lol. Atleast when they die to the mob they took aggro on, I can backup tank and prevent a wipe :P.
  • AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary
    AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary Posts: 555 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    I'm not sure how many people know this but if you simply right click the Bash skill (or any other skill for that matter) It will be autocast as soon as the Cooldown is over.
    ( you can tell by the yellow/orange-y rectangle around the skill icon )

    Send in herc with that setting and you needn't worry about -pressing- your aggro skill all the time or missing a beat when your too busy spamhealing/amping/purging/sparking.
    ^^
    Above mentioned, of course, will probably work best on [?] mobs. But i also find it to be pretty reliable on other mobs as well.
    Of course i often enough lose aggro to crit-h0rny assassins archers and bm's
    ( cant really be too much of a critisizer here, My Aquadash +7 and +3 gear and shards make me have an average output of 13 to 20k damage non crit on FCC mobs. and love hitting a crit from time to time )
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    As a caster, I've found that against regular mobs the best thing you can do to not have a problem with the hercs damage output, is to have really high damage output yourself. The reason is that Bash+melee+reflect will hold aggro against two attacks or so (3 or 4 at lower levels). So you need to kill the mob on the attack that takes aggro. The way I do this is IW then venomous, then lucky, and then another venomous (if the mob lives that long). The reason is because I can use the stun from lucky to stop the mob and give me time for one additional attack.

    At lower levels where lucky isn't quite so reliable or powerful (I have the sage one, that extra 1 sec makes a big difference) you're better off not using it with a herc. The stun won't save you, and will infact add additional aggro for no real gain. If you insist on using it, use it as a finishing attack only. However the advice still holds. You have two options with a herc really. Either you lower your damage output to what it can handle, or you raise it to the point that it doesn't matter if the mob runs for you after a couple seconds.

    I agree here, If your herc doesn't hold it, kill it before it kills you or anyone else. BUT Unless your going to invest in all -%channeling time gear, or insanely high refinement gear and weap your damage will not cut it to most dungeon or cave mobs.
    Unless your walking around in a 30 lvl's below your own lvl.

    Fact of the matter is, were not -real- DD's Were just a safety-net for when **** hits the ceiling.
    A way of making others make more damage and provide them with the means of being a walking meal-on-a-stick. XD
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  • Cocobelle - Sanctuary
    Cocobelle - Sanctuary Posts: 960 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Silest - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but, Roar however is not the barbarian version... It just resets, meaning you're gonna have it for a few seconds, only to lose it again -.-. Despite bash not being enough, I'd still rather place my bets on bash.

    It's a lose lose situation. I've accepted that lol. Atleast when they die to the mob they took aggro on, I can backup tank and prevent a wipe :P.

    Yes, pet skill Roar is completely different from the barb's Roar. Roar is nice on back-up tanks in case the tank dies. It gives the cleric some time to revive the barb while you're tanking.

    My two cents.
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  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The stun effect on Pounce won't draw aggro unlike the stun skills on characters. I must agree that the attack rate increase helps with pet DPS on normal attack though.

    Are you sure this is the case? I can't say I know for sure as I've never specifically tested it, but at the same time I've never seen anyone else test it either (not to say no one did, I didn't touch the game or forums for 9 months). It seems to me like the stun would provide additional aggro because we know from bash tests that using a skill provides aggro, and the effect caused also provides aggro. So it seems consistent with already established/proven aggro rules for the stun to cause some hate.
    Fact of the matter is, were not -real- DD's Were just a safety-net for when **** hits the ceiling.
    A way of making others make more damage and provide them with the means of being a walking meal-on-a-stick. XD

    I disagree here. Veno's hold their own in damage output quite well. You don't have to include sage soul degeneration or amplify damage or even bramble in here. Infact, you don't even need to give others the ? mob handicap. Between our nukes/melee and pet our damage potential is quite high. If you include those other fun abilities we contribute more damage to a fight than any other class other than very high aps characters. But that's against single mobs which are our strength. Against multiple mobs at once we're quite a bit lower on the list.
  • Nyxyo - Harshlands
    Nyxyo - Harshlands Posts: 233 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    as pet skill roar is best by far and not for hold agro but for regain it or save a dd or a cleric ..
    on normal mobs no skill will hold agro so when u attack a mob u need be sure u will aggro and u can kill it...
    i had on hercule roar then i buy claw for "better" aggro end up die a lot cause once i get aggro claw or bash don't help...so i delete claw ad put roar back until i finally got blessing for it and that was it..... bottom line is reflect and [?] penalty is what keeps aggro on a hercule no bash or anything else...you attack a mob expect to deal with himb:chuckle
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Claw isn't "better" aggro than bash. It's worse aggro.

    A level 100 herc has 3210 attack and .8 attack/sec. Claw is a 30% increase, thus it gains 963 attack. That works out to 770.4 damage/hate per second.

    Level 5 bash has a skill activation aggro of ~6900 (I've only done quick tests so I haven't been able to narrow it down perfectly) along with 6420 hate from the bash damage on a level 100 herc. Giving it 13320 aggro (before resistances are taken into account). On top of that, in lost damage there's a cost of 3852 to activate bash leaving you with 9468 aggro. Bash has a 9.5 sec cycle time.

    770.4*9.5=7318.8.

    Claw provides 77.3% of the aggro that Bash 5 does (with resistances factoried in it's closer to 90% of the aggro over time). On top of that, the aggro from claw happens over time where as bash aggro all happens up front. As a result, that first nuke can/will result in you taking aggro.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Are you sure this is the case? I can't say I know for sure as I've never specifically tested it, but at the same time I've never seen anyone else test it either (not to say no one did, I didn't touch the game or forums for 9 months).
    I tested it long ago. It seems to add about the same amount of aggro as any other skill application. Which is rather bad in Pounce's case since the skill maxes out at level 2.
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=2630911#post2630911
    I disagree here. Veno's hold their own in damage output quite well. You don't have to include sage soul degeneration or amplify damage or even bramble in here. Infact, you don't even need to give others the ? mob handicap. Between our nukes/melee and pet our damage potential is quite high.
    Yeah. If you plan out and test your abilities to find out what works and play smart, venos will do decent DD. A similarly equipped DD class played as competently will probably out-DD you. But if you really learn the class and gear yourself appropriately, you should be able to out-DD most of the DD players. I regularly pull aggro off of barbs, wizards, and archers in the random BH groups I join. This is despite me starting off with Soul Degen, Amp, and Rainbow.

    Granted I have a Beamhoof Slicer +5, but I used to use a Requiem Blade +5 before that which is only 13% less patk. I used to pull aggro a lot with that one too. And the Slicer only has about 4% more patk than a TT99 magic sword, so the L99 and L100 players probably have a weapon as good as or better than mine. Most of the time when I'm playing grouped, I'll equip two magic rings while in fox form just to nerf my damage so I don't take aggro. The calcs I've done say an arcane veno with a modest amount of channeling gear should do about as much DPS as me, so it applies to you spell slingers as well.
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Claw isn't "better" aggro than bash. It's worse aggro.
    [calcs snipped]
    Claw provides 77.3% of the aggro that Bash 5 does (with resistances factoried in it's closer to 90% of the aggro over time). On top of that, the aggro from claw happens over time where as bash aggro all happens up front. As a result, that first nuke can/will result in you taking aggro.
    Yeah, it's been tried before on a herc, and the results weren't pretty.
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=249742
  • Nyxya - Harshlands
    Nyxya - Harshlands Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    well i said claw sux as much as bash... was doing a test...what i meant is neither of agro skill would help to keep agro on mobs...that's why roar is way better and versatile.. i didn't even had it on auto just used when saved someone ***(including mine)...
    in the end i used bless that made hercule 6k hp allowing me kill some more boss..even so i still miss roar skill wish they would let ppl add 5th skill
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    There IS something different about pounces aggro though - when luring it works like slow (and some of the other debuff skills).

    If it is the ONLY thing a monster has been hit with, then the aggro from it doesn't transfer to the caster.

    If you wait just a fraction of a second longer, and the pet lands some damage too, of course, the lure will work as desired.

    Conversely, player-skill stuns seem to draw a lot more aggro than other player-skills, as well as resetting the "Shall I run away now?" counter.

    The more you know, and all that - but I admit to being stumped as to how to usefully apply this particular nugget of knowledge.
  • rinuruc
    rinuruc Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
    brael- can you explain a bit more on those hate-formulas???
    how exactly they work etc?

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