Sins in Squads...

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LeiMai - Raging Tide
LeiMai - Raging Tide Posts: 246 Arc User
edited September 2010 in Assassin
I need some advice on how to be an assassin in a squad, everything I've been able to find is about doing as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible. Which is great...solo.

How do you play in a squad and not draw aggro while not being useless? It is totally impractical to hit once, stop, hit once, stop, hit once, stop...and so on. It seems like our hits come it bursts more than constantly one after another, am I noticing this wrong? Are there actually pauses in auto-attacking every handful of hits?

I am not a skill spammer, I don't spark constantly, I hate Chill of the Deep because as soon as the boss is done and its back to mobs I get myself killed. I don't have any interval gear, I'm sharding for defence not offence.

How do you not pull when working in a squad?

And are there any tips for tanking when necessary? I've watched sins not a whole lot higher in level than me do it to a boss that would kill me fairly quickly.

I keep thinking I'm doing things wrong, because everyone talks about sins like we should be totally epic by 7x and getting massive crits and so on. I got my first 16k today at level 73. I know clerics who can crit way higher than I can.

I don't think I did my stats wrong, 1 strength every level, and in the beginning I put points in vit until I got to 26 without gear bonuses. After that it was 1 str 4 dex every level.

I keep feeling like I should be doing better damage than I am, just because of the way everyone talks about assassins. Yeah, its starting to get really good now that I'm a higher level but I still don't really know how other people do the things they do. I don't think it would be fair to say I'm a total noob, I've never hypered and I'm not a cash shopper. But I've always only ever played because I enjoy playing. But I've worked hard to finally get this high and I want to really make the most of my class.

So please...share your secrets b:chuckle
Post edited by LeiMai - Raging Tide on

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  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I need some advice on how to be an assassin in a squad, everything I've been able to find is about doing as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible. Which is great...solo.

    How do you play in a squad and not draw aggro while not being useless? It is totally impractical to hit once, stop, hit once, stop, hit once, stop...and so on. It seems like our hits come it bursts more than constantly one after another, am I noticing this wrong? Are there actually pauses in auto-attacking every handful of hits?

    I am not a skill spammer, I don't spark constantly, I hate Chill of the Deep because as soon as the boss is done and its back to mobs I get myself killed. I don't have any interval gear, I'm sharding for defence not offence.

    How do you not pull when working in a squad?

    And are there any tips for tanking when necessary? I've watched sins not a whole lot higher in level than me do it to a boss that would kill me fairly quickly.

    I keep thinking I'm doing things wrong, because everyone talks about sins like we should be totally epic by 7x and getting massive crits and so on. I got my first 16k today at level 73. I know clerics who can crit way higher than I can.

    I don't think I did my stats wrong, 1 strength every level, and in the beginning I put points in vit until I got to 26 without gear bonuses. After that it was 1 str 4 dex every level.

    I keep feeling like I should be doing better damage than I am, just because of the way everyone talks about assassins. Yeah, its starting to get really good now that I'm a higher level but I still don't really know how other people do the things they do. I don't think it would be fair to say I'm a total noob, I've never hypered and I'm not a cash shopper. But I've always only ever played because I enjoy playing. But I've worked hard to finally get this high and I want to really make the most of my class.

    So please...share your secrets b:chuckle

    With no interval gears and not sparking, any Barb who knows what a Flesh Ream is should have no problem with aggro. When it's axes BM tanking, put Chill on. I'm not sure what you mean by going back to mobs with Chill on gets you killed. You can turn it right off after boss by using it again.

    Tanking wise, I'd try to avoid as much as you can before 89 and on [?] mobs/bosses. Bloodpaint helps a bit for tanking, but we are still pretty squishy at 7X and we don't put out enough damage to get a lot of healing. Damage is also reduced on [?] mobs/bosses so you get heal very little. Remember to have the boss Ribbed at all time. Big part of it depends on the Cleric.

    Crit wise, we are never going to crit harder than a caster on a single hit. Their big skills take like 3-4 seconds to cast. We do massive damage by getting many crits very fast, so don't worry if you don't crit as hard as casters.

    Your stats are fine, 26 VIT doesn't make or break you.

    A tip I can give you is Tackling Slash runners!!! It's like #1 thing you do in squad. On my BM, I saw 9X Sins who did not use it once in Eden BH (full of runners), even after I asked him to. I don't think he learned it <_<. There was also this Sin in BH 79 who would run next to a runner mob then demon spark -_-;. Mob runs, she chases (not tele stun), I face palm. It didn't happen once but over and over. She would run up to 3 runners (ahead of us) then demon spark... Those are the things you don't want to do. Tele stun is useful for getting a mob that's running towards Cleric. In BH 79, you'll be able to use stealth to see which door is open so to decide to reset the instance or not, without having to kill the mobs to get to the doors.

    BH 59 should be pretty easy, you should be able to clear it to boss yourself on Bloodpaint and genie alone.

    -Kill mobs as fast as you can.
    -Make sure Bloodpaint is always up.
    -Try to keep Focused Mind on as often as you can.
    -Manage your chi well: Do NOT use Subsea on a single mob. Use it on boss if you are worried about aggro and is not sparking anyways. But when you are tanking, use the chi you get from skills to keep double sparking. Subsea, Powerdash and, needless to say, Headhunt are both waste on boss. You might get a couple of high crits with double spark + Dash, but then you are stuck to auto attack for a while to build chi. The best DPS always comes from spark + auto.
  • Amarante - Raging Tide
    Amarante - Raging Tide Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    On top of what Okeano said...
    LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I need some advice on how to be an assassin in a squad, everything I've been able to find is about doing as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible. Which is great...solo.

    How do you play in a squad and not draw aggro while not being useless? It is totally impractical to hit once, stop, hit once, stop, hit once, stop...and so on. It seems like our hits come it bursts more than constantly one after another, am I noticing this wrong? Are there actually pauses in auto-attacking every handful of hits?

    Know your limits. If you don't know them, learn fast. Hit a few times, then stop, repeat. If you're the only sin in squad, you can just ribstrike and attack. When the rib debuff wears off, you break off for a few seconds. Etc. etc. blah blah. And no, there shouldn't be pauses in auto-attack. If you accidentally aggro some mobs you don't want to aggro, force stealth. Problem solved.

    I am not a skill spammer, I don't spark constantly, I hate Chill of the Deep because as soon as the boss is done and its back to mobs I get myself killed. I don't have any interval gear, I'm sharding for defence not offence.

    That's okay. I'd suggest getting a Hook and Thorn (tt80 interval daggers) and the gold tt80 interval wrists when you hit level 80. 1.43 aps works wonders.

    How do you not pull when working in a squad?

    How do you...not pull? Well, i don't know...you just don't pull lol.

    And are there any tips for tanking when necessary? I've watched sins not a whole lot higher in level than me do it to a boss that would kill me fairly quickly.

    Keep it ribstrike (especially if you have level 10 rib), hit hard, hit fast, spark. Fish shields are rather weak. Blood paint doesn't really help yet so your healing comes from spammed heals/food. After I hit 89 and got demon spark, my BP was burning it up at 300-500 hp per hit, 2.5 hits per second. Because you're not a barb who has aggro skills, if you tank, you have to do the most damage.

    I keep thinking I'm doing things wrong, because everyone talks about sins like we should be totally epic by 7x and getting massive crits and so on. I got my first 16k today at level 73. I know clerics who can crit way higher than I can.

    You're okay. "Epic" leans more towards PvP stuff. It's not *massive* crits we have. It's a *lot* of crits. We don't have skills like a venomancer's nova or a cleric's tempest. Those hit high, but take time to cast. Sins are made to hit not-as-high, but a lot of hits in a short amount of time.

    I don't think I did my stats wrong, 1 strength every level, and in the beginning I put points in vit until I got to 26 without gear bonuses. After that it was 1 str 4 dex every level.

    I keep feeling like I should be doing better damage than I am, just because of the way everyone talks about assassins. Yeah, its starting to get really good now that I'm a higher level but I still don't really know how other people do the things they do. I don't think it would be fair to say I'm a total noob, I've never hypered and I'm not a cash shopper. But I've always only ever played because I enjoy playing. But I've worked hard to finally get this high and I want to really make the most of my class.

    You're okay. Want more damage? Get a better weapon, otherwise you are doing well. Your build is sound. When you hit 100, plan on getting a max of 104 str before or after bonuses to wear the best LA gear. If you want, get more str (I forgot how much) and you can get the warsoul of earth helm.

    So please...share your secrets b:chuckle

    I hope red is okay with you^^
  • nuttwagon
    nuttwagon Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »
    ?

    I am not a skill spammer, I don't spark constantly, I hate Chill of the Deep because as soon as the boss is done and its back to mobs I get myself killed.

    Cast Chill of the Deep again to remove the effect.
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    Tanking wise, I'd try to avoid as much as you can before 89 and on [?] mobs/bosses.
    Don't know what you are smoking, bro. I can hold my own easily in both open world and dungeons. I can tank BH51 (granted, I need two clerics) and solo BH59 gate guardians (uncharmed). Make sure you're squad buffed, always keep BP on (I only use my other buffs for chi or duels). I play my sin like a BM as well; I'm always right behind the tank smacking what he's smacking and even off-tanking.
    If you even get in trouble, use 2nd Wind (if you have it) or Shadow Escape.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Don't know what you are smoking, bro. I can hold my own easily in both open world and dungeons. I can tank BH51 (granted, I need two clerics) and solo BH59 gate guardians (uncharmed). Make sure you're squad buffed, always keep BP on (I only use my other buffs for chi or duels). I play my sin like a BM as well; I'm always right behind the tank smacking what he's smacking and even off-tanking.
    If you even get in trouble, use 2nd Wind (if you have it) or Shadow Escape.

    Just because you "can" doesn't mean everyone should. One delay heal from Cleric and you are screwed. BH51= 6X BH, you are 7X. Try tank BH 59. I've seen an 8X Sin getting completely owned by the first boss of BH 59. What limits you as an "off tank", as oppose to BM, is how many hits you can take before Cleric realize that you have aggro.
  • LeiMai - Raging Tide
    LeiMai - Raging Tide Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    I didn't know you could turn Chill of the Deep off....lol. That makes a huge difference!

    I'm always concerned that if I use Shadow Escape then whatever I'm escaping from will just turn on someone else, usually someone who is more vulnerable than me. Does that happen? I rarely shadow escape in a squad because I'm concerned that its just going to put the attention on the cleric instead of me.

    Thanks for all the advice so far everyone!
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    Just because you "can" doesn't mean everyone should. One delay heal from Cleric and you are screwed. BH51= 6X BH, you are 7X. Try tank BH 59. I've seen an 8X Sin getting completely owned by the first boss of BH 59. What limits you as an "off tank", as oppose to BM, is how many hits you can take before Cleric realize that you have aggro.

    Yeah, I'm not going to dare tank 59 until I have 1.67 (preferably 1.82) APS. As for heals, I'm used to healing myself; I usually end up self-healing just as the cleric decides to heal me.b:laugh
    --Edit--
    That's when I'm fighting mobs, not tanking bosses...
    LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I'm always concerned that if I use Shadow Escape then whatever I'm escaping from will just turn on someone else, usually someone who is more vulnerable than me. Does that happen? I rarely shadow escape in a squad because I'm concerned that its just going to put the attention on the cleric instead of me.

    The next person on the aggro list should be the tank, so don't worry about it.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Vassaga - Heavens Tear
    Vassaga - Heavens Tear Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    Just because you "can" doesn't mean everyone should. One delay heal from Cleric and you are screwed. BH51= 6X BH, you are 7X. Try tank BH 59. I've seen an 8X Sin getting completely owned by the first boss of BH 59. What limits you as an "off tank", as oppose to BM, is how many hits you can take before Cleric realize that you have aggro.

    Uhm, not bragging, but cleric and myself did bh59 alone.. though i had like 130k repair bill after that (didn't repair before it). i can even tank pyro in bh69 with bb up... mobs are just way too easy. i plan to farm 59 once i get few more levels for stamps.

    it's not up to cleric to heal you if you've got aggro. no cleric can react that fast, as it's usually 2 hits before you're dead. what you want to do is normally buff yourself first (deaden nerves and focused), and position yourself on the opposite side of the boss. as soon as you notice boss turning around towards you force stealth. that's how i avoid being killed..
  • proassassin
    proassassin Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Always keep in mind to protect the clerik when in party, so keep Shadow Teleport free to use in cases cleric gets in to trouble. Im sure u know if u agro two or more mobs and cleric heals u other mob will attack healer. Use stun tele in that case to buy time.
    The other advice u already recive is that when hitting a boss its good to stand on other side than tank so u can quickly see if u pulled agro.
    And if for some reason tank dies u are probably first one pulling agro, don't just stealth, hit some heal pot and run so boss will chase u to again buy time so healer can ressure tank and quickly buff him.
  • LeiMai - Raging Tide
    LeiMai - Raging Tide Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    I'm starting to think it would be fair to say I am only part of the problem....I squad with alot of clerics and psychics etc who draw aggro often. I do try and pull it onto myself if something happens to the tank, or if something goes after the cleric. Spark, use skills, etc.

    How do you politely correct someone's actions though? Like things that put everyone at risk.

    For example, clerics that hang too far back. I try and stay with them at the back of the group just in case. Even when we start on a boss they always seem so far away (no AOE involved) which is a serious risk considering things have started respawning in my current BH, BH59. I've seen things respawn infront of me, and appear behind me when I know there was nothing there. I didn't think that was supposed to happen. But how do you tell them to keep up with the group? At least stay nearer to the other ranged classes. I'd like to be a contributing member of the squad but its hard when I'm worried about the cleric getting jumped because then we all die. And it has happened.

    No one likes to be told how to play their class. But no one likes a dead cleric either. Should I phrase it so its about myself? Could you move up to the veno because I'd like to help with the boss but stuff respawns in here and you might be too far away for someone to help quickly?

    I have been standing on the other side of the boss so it is easier to see if aggro shifts to me. I've done a much better job of not drawing it once I found out Chill of the Deep can be turned off lol.

    Maybe its everyone's impression that we are so OP that we should be way ahead of everyone else at the same level. But I'm not, and it seems to balance out. Yes I attack more per second and harder, but if I get mobbed and can't stealth/heal enough to survive quick enough, I am dead. I know I'm still learning, because I have good gear and don't seem to do as well as some people my level but maybe I don't spark enough when soloing. Or its because I don't use all my skills constantly...not sure.

    I'm also wondering about shards a little bit, I think I'm taking the right direction. My daggers have a garnet (they are 2 socket, should I leave the second socket empty or put another garnet in? some people advised leaving it empty for when I sell them) and my armor is getting sharded with citrines. Except my cape, which has garnets in it. Am I going in the right direction or should I plan for something different for TT80 and onward?
  • Hiroyami - Dreamweaver
    Hiroyami - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    I blame miss communication and players not paying attention. Sometimes when i play tank there seems to be one more mob hiding that always catches one of the lower lvls of the squad and i have to spring back and get it off her before he/she dies on me. This is usually on bh39 and 51's. Im focused on getting the way cleared and some little midget comes from behind and starts attacking after everyone else is already dead. Annoying but just goes to show you that sometimes u have to pay better attention. I like to be tank and use my daggers to the extreme and cause as much damage as i can. That is if the cleric can handle the 600 damage most bosses do on me and heal the other players that dont understand the meaning of aoe.

    I have to deal with the same problem. Since im usually the tank i can hold onto my life longer than most people so im not constantly relying on the cleric in the squad. Sometimes i have to end up worrying about the cleric when he/she doesnt keep up with whats going on. Especially when too many mobs have been agrooed (not a word but the meaning is understandable). Communication is key, if the squad leader can set up a strategy to how to defeat the boss then stand up and say ur part of the plan so that everyone knows what they are doing and if they mess up then they will have to deal with the shame of the rest of the squad thinking they're noobs.

    Lol, i found this out a couple days ago myself.

    Everyone grows at their own speed. If this is ur first sin then its nothing top worry about. U can always restart and already knowing what to do, u will lvl up faster.

    I personally focused my sharding in phys Attck and Def+ Meaning that i put in Garnets into my daggers and armor. My cape and helm have citrines. And all are refined at least 1 or higher. Players would buy items that have high lvl shards in them rather than having to shard them themselves. But this is just my take on it. I make my own shards so i dont have to worry about it and just buy unsharded weps and armor. im now working on getting my lvl 70 TT armor and i already have the shards to put in them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    Hiroyami - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I blame miss communication and players not paying attention. Sometimes when i play tank there seems to be one more mob hiding that always catches one of the lower lvls of the squad and i have to spring back and get it off her before he/she dies on me. This is usually on bh39 and 51's. Im focused on getting the way cleared and some little midget comes from behind and starts attacking after everyone else is already dead. Annoying but just goes to show you that sometimes u have to pay better attention. I like to be tank and use my daggers to the extreme and cause as much damage as i can. That is if the cleric can handle the 600 damage most bosses do on me and heal the other players that dont understand the meaning of aoe.

    OMG you sound like me! Welcome to the club of sin tanks, brotherb:pleased
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Graey_Rain - Harshlands
    Graey_Rain - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2010
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    You can tank some stuff okay as a lowish sin, some stuff will kill you easy. I tanked a full 59 run yesterday, did every boss with no cleric. Never going to do it again because of the charm and pot ****, but with a cleric I could tank 59 when I was a low enough lvl to actually have bh 59's I could easily tank it with one cleric by 75 I could tank wyvern rank and fush when I had bh's there also, but I used to use an apothecary pot to raise my pdef on rank and wyv at lower levels. I have 1.67 aps, good gears and high hp for my level, if you don't have good gear I wouldn't advise tanking anything until you're a nice high level.
    On the agro pulling front most people are of the opinion that barbs can hold agro from an equal lvl sin with no interval equips if you don't spark or use skills too often. In my experience this isn't true at all. I can remove my interval equips, wait a good 30 seconds for a barb my level or higher to secure agro, then do nothing but auto attack and I always steal agro off the barb before the boss is dead. With interval equips on I have to either wait till the boss has almost half hp left or use chill the entire fight if the barbs in my lvl range I will still take agro even if doing nothing but auto atacking with chill up. I only have bracers of blood moon, counter stream chest and hook and thorn, that's a total of -0.2 interval from my gear so not as if I'm op or anything... tbh I think the blessings play a part in it, so maybe use the aniversary one instead of jones to lower your atk levels or just take it off while fighting boss's.
    What I usually do is wait a few seconds for the barb to secure agro, then ribstrike and subsea strike and stop attacking. I just keep debuffing and amping while the rest of the squad get it's hp almost halfway down and then I start DDing properly. You will have a very hard time pulling agro if you do this, whilst not being completely useless. And if you do pull agro just hit shadow escape, agro will go straight back to the tank 9/10 times.

    In partys you can imobilise and stun runners, tele stun and agro things which agro squishies, pull anything that agro's the cleric act as a back up tank if tank dies, use rib and sub sea on boss's etc. You said clerics stay too far back but max'd teles have a huge range, so save them for when you need them and if you see the clerics hp bar going down in the squad window, either target them and normal tele to them then agro the mob or target them assist attack and tele stun the mob. If the cleric is standing further back from the squad than your teleport range then he is too far back to be doing anything useful so you have every right to tell him to get closer to the group and try healing someone or being useful in some way.

    On the shard not, yes wack an extra garnet in the daggers, don't know who told you to keep a slot open for when you sell it but that's just silly. If someone wants to change the shards they can just remove them and put different ones in, but since sins are the only ones who are going to be buying your daggers, they aren't going to be sharding with anything other than garnets anyways, so just add the price of the shards to the weapon when you sell it. On a side note you are 78 so should really be thinking about tt gear, I imagine your not using tt daggers as you're selling them not decomposing, but anyway I'd advise a hook and thorn for 80, so if you are using bloodlust tongues atm don't sell them decompose to get the hooks. Critines are the way forward as far as armor sharding go's. Don't bother using any other shards. Some like to shard pdef, but in my opinion with decent physical defence ornaments (I use tt pdef orns) the added hp will be more beneficial than the pdef from sharding.

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