What's more beneficial to me?

Go for JoSD, they get better the more you stack them whereas Vit stones get worse.



1 JoSD added to 0 Def level increases survivability by 2%.
25 stones later:
1 JoSD added to 50 Def level increases survivability by 4%.


Lets be generous and say that 1 Vit stone gives 200 HP to a rather anemic 10k HP barb.

+200 HP added to 10000 HP increases survivability by 2%.
25 stones later:
+200 HP added to 15000 HP increases survivabilty by 1.33%

90% of PWI math heads are Archers.. Why is this?

Shevanel - Sanctuary wrote: »

90% of PWI math heads are Archers.. Why is this?

Because archers can do math while they auto attack.

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Go for JoSD, they get better the more you stack them whereas Vit stones get worse.



1 JoSD added to 0 Def level increases survivability by 2%.
25 stones later:
1 JoSD added to 50 Def level increases survivability by 4%.


Lets be generous and say that 1 Vit stone gives 200 HP to a rather anemic 10k HP barb.

+200 HP added to 10000 HP increases survivability by 2%.
25 stones later:
+200 HP added to 15000 HP increases survivabilty by 1.33%

This is a very common misconception because your numbers don't consider the Base Survivability which will play a huge role in how long you will actually survive. On paper yes, the survivability boost of JSD is a greater number, but we can't assume it's "better" in terms of keeping you alive. It all comes down to your resistances and what kind of attack the enemy is using. Actual Survivability may not actually reflect upon your given numbers simply because you have to take into consideration Vit stones also give Physical and Magical Defense. The bonuses of Vit stones are intensified when full buffed as well.

For example a barb that has 2K base Mage Def (31% reduction) ... a 4% survivability boost does not equate to "better survivability" compared to a 2% survivability boost on a 3K (42% reduction) base Mage Def barb. The same applies for AA classes in the realms of Phys Def. A 100% increase in survivability to a cleric with 1K Phys def means nothing and I'm sure you know who I'm talking about from Sanctuary. The cleric with the stacked 44 Def level but squishier than clerics with Garnet Gems and no Def lvl. *Facedesk*

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is, besides just plain survivability, 1 more thing

Say you have 20k hp before sharding.
Now you use either jades to get 50 def lvl (50% less dmg, thus your hp can absorb hits that would do 30k dmg before the def calculation)
Or you shard vit stones to get to 30k hp (no I don't know if this is possible, but round numbers calculate easier).

Now a wizzy hits you for 20k dmg before def lvl calculation. In both situations your charm ticks. With jade, the dmg end up with 10k however, and without jade, you lose 20k hp.

Losing 10k hp over 20k hp gives your charm an easier time, and makes it easier for the cleric to heal you.

Thus, my favor goes to jade of defence.


Now, where are the math wizzys to correct me. I have a feeling I made a basic error in the % calculationbb:surrender

I stopped reading there. What's with so many people thinking Defense level = % of less damage taken?

Are you trying to say that a Psychic with 100 defense level = Immune to damage?

abcbb:chuckleb:chuckle

My little coin worth:

24 +10Vit stones = 4320HP for a Barb.
24 +2def level stones = +48def levels = 37% reduction in damage assuming attacker has atk level of 0.

Now that everything has become simpler, it's just a matter of 4320HP vs 37% reduction. While I do notice the small pdef and mdef 24 vit stones may add up to be quite a bit, a fully buffed barb will only receive realistically ~1% pdef reduction and ~5% mdef.

Question now is - 4320HP or 37% reduction? If you have decent HP (which Roid mentioned to take all refs to +10), def level is always more beneficial.

Futurelord - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Stack plumeshell with wings of protection and guardian light and you just turned a 100k attack into a tiny ant that has nowhere else to go...

will try this on a guard when i come home b:sin

More HP simply "delays the inevitable," so to speak.
More defense level does the exact same, EXCEPT it means this:


Let's say an HP barb has 25k HP and the defense one only has 19k. HP barb could get hit by a fist BM for steady 600s, whereas the defense one would be hit for steady 360s or so. That lower incoming damage means it will be easier for your healing items to overcome incoming damage. Think of a cleric: if the cleric gets one shot, it can't do jack. If it has more HP, it survives a potential one-shot and has time to heal, but a DPS opponent like a sin will eventually overcome the heals. If the cleric has more defense level, it will also survive a potential one-shot, but the reduced incoming damage means the cleric's self-heals will be more effective in combatting that incoming damage and it'll buy more time. Instead of 2500 incoming damage per two seconds versus 1200 health regen per two seconds, you'll have 1600 incoming damage vs. 1200 health regen.


Long story short, on a character with as much HP as a barb to begin with, I can easily see defense level buying the barb a LOT more life in any battle with a charm or health pots or a healer involved.

Futurelord - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Stop telling people our secret weapons, we clerics have a rule not to let anyone know how we will rule the game when we become rich!

Hey man, Psy's the only one who can get outrageous amounts of defense level with those gems. I say the world is ours. b:cool

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Go for JoSD, they get better the more you stack them whereas Vit stones get worse.

1 JoSD added to 0 Def level increases survivability by 2%.
25 stones later:
1 JoSD added to 50 Def level increases survivability by 4%.

Actually, the research that's been done on this says the opposite for JoSD. (You can read the entire thread if you wish, but the post I've linked to is the feather in the cap. Nice job by azukaya, who btw is a wizard posting on the archer forums. b:chuckle Thanks to Asterelle and co. for providing the original data.)
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=9805402#post9805402

Going from 0 Def to 2 Def results in a 2.4% increase in survivability.
Going from 50 Def to 52 Def results in a 1.5% increase in survivability.

It's still greater than the survivability increase from +hp in your example though.

Lets be generous and say that 1 Vit stone gives 200 HP to a rather anemic 10k HP barb.

+200 HP added to 10000 HP increases survivability by 2%.
25 stones later:
+200 HP added to 15000 HP increases survivabilty by 1.33%

That said...

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is a very common misconception because your numbers don't consider the Base Survivability which will play a huge role in how long you will actually survive. On paper yes, the survivability boost of JSD is a greater number, but we can't assume it's "better" in terms of keeping you alive. It all comes down to your resistances and what kind of attack the enemy is using. Actual Survivability may not actually reflect upon your given numbers simply because you have to take into consideration Vit stones also give Physical and Magical Defense.

Yeah, it's important to note that in the above examples, you can't compare the 1.5% survivability increase going from 25 JSoD to 26 JSoD to the 1.33% survivability increase going from 25 vit stones to 26 vit stones. They are percentages of different things. If both cases started with the same hypothetical 10k barbarian, then the correct comparison for the 25->26 stone case is:

JSoD: 62.5% DR going to 61.576% DR @ 10k hp. Which translates into going from 16k hp-equiv to 16.24k hp-equiv.

vit: 15k hp -> 15.2k hp.

In the JSoD case, the 1.5% improvement is from a base of 16k hp-equiv, for a 240 hp-equiv gain.
In the vit case, the 1.33% improvement is from a base of 15k hp, for a 200 hp gain.

If you just compared the percentages (which is the wrong way to do it, and what TheDan is cautioning against), you would expect the JSoD to give a 225 hp-equivalent gain.

The bonuses of Vit stones are intensified when full buffed as well.

Same for the JSoD since they also operate independently of pdef and mdef, and are multiplied by hp. So any def or hp buff also benefits them.

There has been multiple discussions on this in the past, as Solandri pointed out. The simple answer is "we don't know." The formula that was thought to be correct turned out to be true for only certain cases.

My personal opinion...if you're already refining your armor to +10, you have decent survivability already. Unless you're planning on being a TW cata barb and nothing else, you can afford to put forth some attack so you can actually kill something instead of just tanking 20 people in a gang bang.

My question is, for Damage Dealers like psys, venos, wizards, would it be better to stack Attack lvl +1 gems (rather than defense gems) in armor and weapon, provided you have +10 armor?

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Same for the JSoD since they also operate independently of pdef and mdef, and are multiplied by hp. So any def or hp buff also benefits them.

Yes. I'll admit that the independent factor of Phys def/Mage def for JSD is what makes it difficult for people to decide which to shard. A lot of people will prefer Vit stones simply because the effects are more "visible." On paper, the intensified effect of base magic defense stacked with cleric buffs and magic marrow makes Vit stones look like a more versatile choice for BMs, but as I said... We are comparing percentages of different Base Survivabilities. I myself have no research or evidence to claim which has more Actual Survivability, so I won't dispute it. I just wanted to caution people about the common misconceptions of not considering Base Survivability.