Cactopad or Eldergoth, advice plz.

Zairi - Dreamweaver
Zairi - Dreamweaver Posts: 118 Arc User
edited August 2010 in Venomancer
Hi,
so since i cant realy avoid squads anymore i decidet its finally time to get myself a decent pull pet and decidet for a ranged one.


There is the cactopads which you can get at lv 4 (the higher are not as good stat wise) and the Eldergoth Marksman/Sharpshooter.

I am kind of stuck which one to choose as pull and ranged pet for mean magic bosses.
Eldergoth will get like 600hp more in the end but the cactopad will get slightly higher defences. Also the cactopad is way cuter. b:cute

I would totaly go for the nice light green thing with a pink top but the 600 hp less let me fear that it will not be able to pull in certain situations or tank some bosses. I read somewhere here either will do but like i said the 600hp less make me think it may matter in the end.

Can anyone who actually uses ranged pets plz give an advice here? I dont want to spend the next 3 weeks leveling a pet which turns out to be a bad decision.b:sad

Excuse my bad english please.b:surrender
Post edited by Zairi - Dreamweaver on

Comments

  • Manakel - Dreamweaver
    Manakel - Dreamweaver Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Well, eledergoths are said to be best pulling pets... Never had one though, I used to pull with a kowlin and still do, but I also used a cactopod from FB89... too high lvl for you, though, but if they make good pulling pets, why the lower ones wouldn't do ? If you reallly want a ranged one I think it's all up to you... btw, if you're really fast with the timing when you pull, none of them should die while pulling.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=8149449004&dateline=1294904331[/SIGPIC]
    Dreamweaver chars:
    Zahikel 101 Cleric, Celestial Demon
    Manakel 100 Veno, Demon (semi-retired)
    Kaeden 93 Archer, Demon
    Asthariel new Mystic :3
  • Zairi - Dreamweaver
    Zairi - Dreamweaver Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Hm yes but can it tank, lets say, the Magic bosses in fb59 (on ranged magic damage is way less and easyer to take then their melee dmg + you stay outta melee range they wont come to you and melee, only cast so you kinda let your pet tank it Wiz/Cleric/Arcane Robe Veno style, i heared lol).
    Means i want it to be able to take magic hits from bosses as well.
    Also i readed alot that in endgame you cant always avoid that your puller gets hit. Then again are Cactopads hp sufficent or/and does the add defence outweight it?

    I also readed that those Eden(or smth) Cactopads have double the range then the lower ones but worse stats (not raised from so early on). I found no confirmation on that range thing too.

    Sorry english beats me I hope i was able to express what i want to know. x.X
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    the ones that have a higher starting lvl do have a further range. granted the stats wont be as good as starting from the earliest pet, in later lvls (like 89+ (cactopods in eden) have twice the range of the eldergoth or any earlier ranged pullers.
    >.<
  • Yindra - Sanctuary
    Yindra - Sanctuary Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Hm yes but can it tank, lets say, the Magic bosses in fb59 (on ranged magic damage is way less and easyer to take then their melee dmg + you stay outta melee range they wont come to you and melee, only cast so you kinda let your pet tank it Wiz/Cleric/Arcane Robe Veno style, i heared lol).

    It doesn't really matter whether they could tank any bosses (which I doubt anyway). I noticed that while trying to level my Eldergroth Marksman --- his melee damage is bad, but the ranged damage is just horrible. Assuming you aren't entirely taken up with heal spamming, trying to "help" your pet with offensive spells would be either suicide, or not much of a difference. Not helping your pet, on the other hand... well, take a few days off, and bring a few truckloads of MP potions. Don't forget maintenance day.

    Severly dropped the "priority" of levelling the Marksman, since I couldn't really see any use for him.
    Slow progress, game is getting way too grindy :-( Quests I still hope to be able to do some day: FB39, General Feng
  • Manakel - Dreamweaver
    Manakel - Dreamweaver Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Ok, so from what I understood in your 2nd post, I would recommened you the Shaodu Cub rare pet. Yes, they aren't ranged pets, but: they have a quite fast running speed, making them good puller, they have really decent hp, which allow them to pull without dying (if you're fast enough to stow it on time), plus they are among the best non legendary magic-tank pets, and they also have a really decent pdef. To me, this kind of pet would serve your purposes eventhough they aren't ranged.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=8149449004&dateline=1294904331[/SIGPIC]
    Dreamweaver chars:
    Zahikel 101 Cleric, Celestial Demon
    Manakel 100 Veno, Demon (semi-retired)
    Kaeden 93 Archer, Demon
    Asthariel new Mystic :3
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I have no experience with ranged pets as i use a tabby for pulling (can handle Pole without getting so much as a scratch b:sin) but if they're able to tank bosses in 59 they would actually be worth an hour's worth of leveling on cube. Not for me, i'm almost done with that BH level range b:sweat, but as a practical recommendation given the difficulty of finding Clerics, Barbs or Arcanes with enough confidence to tank...

    Can anyone report on this?

    Edit; @Yindra, so the dps really is that bad?
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I have soloed all the 59 bosses with an eldergoth in my late 70s (Drake and Glut are easier than the other three, due to their using DoTs rather than nukes.) Note that since the eldergoth isn't using any skills in range mode, it's really, really easy to pull aggro off it. (Pulled aggro and died once on Glut DDing between heals.)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
    thejapanesepage.com/ebooks/yuki_no_monogatari_manga
  • Bridigan - Sanctuary
    Bridigan - Sanctuary Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I use a Cactopod for pulling, and I love him. (I got the Cactopod because I think Eldergoths are ugly.) If you're worried about it dying on a pull, just buy the Tough skill from the Zoologist in Archosaur, and the Cactopod will be able to buff itself right before it goes to pull, so for 15 seconds it will take much less damage.

    Cactopods are generally not good tankers (low pdef), but they can be used to tank certain bosses; their ranged attack and their decent mdef makes them a good choice for certain bosses that do less damage at range (Krixxix and Suzerix, and probably a few others).
    Director and Webmistress of Faction Tramonto
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I have soloed all the 59 bosses with an eldergoth in my late 70s (Drake and Glut are easier than the other three, due to their using DoTs rather than nukes.) Note that since the eldergoth isn't using any skills in range mode, it's really, really easy to pull aggro off it. (Pulled aggro and died once on Glut DDing between heals.)

    Thanks May, this low threat level probably means using this with a squad is out of the question. Did it take too long?
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Fights do take rather long... 10-20 minutes. In BH squads without a cleric, I've done it, and warned them not to attack before 50% HP, but they generally don't listen (and die.)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
    thejapanesepage.com/ebooks/yuki_no_monogatari_manga
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    You've got it backwards with the cactopods. The higher the tame level the further their attack range is and the faster they are. If you go with a level 4 cactopod all you have is a pet with an attack range of about 4m (pet melee is 2 or 2.5 m, I forget which offhand) and a pretty slow speed, you might as well go with a more durable melee pet in that case.

    The good cactopods are the higher level ones because they're faster and have a longer range. The marksman is a bit different, it happens to have rather good defensive stats and a low enough tame level that it doesn't suck durability wise, but is high enough to have a useful range attack (it's about 10.3m) and enough speed.

    A marksman is the way to go I think, the reason is because it can range tank some bosses before a herc can tank them and is a solid pulling pet. Once you're higher level and can get a cactopod from Eden you'll have access to a better puller though a marksman still retains it's value as a range tank and puller. Personally, I use my marksman over my ethereal inamorato in warsong because the animation is a lot easier to look at to see when it's attacking something. Though in other places I tend to use the inamorato to pull mainly because I tell myself it's better and force myself to use it.

    Oh, and with range tanking, aggro is very low (as is damage output from a squad or yourself as a result) however it does have its place as a valid alternative when your other tank pets can't do the job.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Here's some good info I compiled on the subject:

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=323451

    -At the time, the majority here seemed sold on the fast pets as being the best pullers.

    At higher levels, a lot of bosses and mobs (OHT maps) are [?] which help your pet tremendously with aggro. Many are also range tankable. A lot of people push the golems, and walkers, but I think the next best thing to a Herc is a Marksman or Sharpshooter. If you get a Herc: your golem/ walker is obsolete, but ranged pets retain some value.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Thanks for the details on tanking. Hopefully the OP should also be satisfied with the responses to his thread. Personally i'll recognize the theoretical superiority of ranged pullers although i remain somewhat skeptical as to wether fast pets (of which there's a much a larger variety, with different advantages) cannot handle the same jobs. Guess the only way i'll ever find out for myself is if i make it to 90+...

    However ranged tanking is undeniably an option worth exploring for many venos.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Personally i'll recognize the theoretical superiority of ranged pullers although i remain somewhat skeptical as to wether fast pets (of which there's a much a larger variety, with different advantages) cannot handle the same jobs.
    It's pretty simple in my book:
    • If the target is alone, both the fast pet and ranged pet pull about equally well. Some people prefer to call it twelve, others prefer to call it a dozen.
    • If the target is in a group, the ranged pet pulls much better.
    • If the target is moving, the fast pet pulls somewhat better.

    Most of the difficult pulls you'll encounter involve pulling from groups, so the ranged pet is a more useful puller in the (vast) majority of difficult pull situations. It's also free at a relatively low level (for the marksman).

    That doesn't make the fast pet obsolete though. There are a handful of situations where you want to pull a roaming boss or mob, and it's just easier to time when to send the fast pet. Whether you want a pet dedicated for this purpose is another question though. The range on the L91 cactopod is so good that I'm using it in most of those moving target situations out of sheer laziness (I have it hotkeyed, while to use my kowlin I have to open my pet bag). The difference is not that great, while the difference in group pulls is pretty substantial.

    For regular pulls, I've completely abandoned pets and rely entirely on my Zeal genie and Tame now. Over 99% of my regular mob pulls and over 50% of my boss pulls are with the genie.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I'm not saying Zeal is bad, but personally I find it too slow. My zeal genie which I keep around for the occasional pull has 80 mag on it and it still can't keep up with a good paced group (and the groups I usually get are pickups at best so a good pace is substantially less than a group which functions well together). In warsong for example, I've been finding my marksman to work quite a bit better than a zeal. In theory my inamorato should work just as well as the marksman if not better, but in practice the marksman rarely if ever dies while the inamorato regularly doesn't survive the pull. I'm not sure if this is just a timing issue, the fact that it's MUCH easier to see the marksman attack, or what but it seems to work the best for me.

    I can't imagine using a zeal in there to pull, some of the longer pulls to get runners wouldn't be possible and other than an occasional boss pull in 99's (long range pulls) or a solo trip through eden (where I use my zeal over my other genie) I just don't find myself pulling all that much anymore.

    Maybe it's just a level thing, but it seems to me that outside of a few specific situations, pulling in general has become far less important.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I'm not saying Zeal is bad, but personally I find it too slow. My zeal genie which I keep around for the occasional pull has 80 mag on it and it still can't keep up with a good paced group
    I usually find that Zeal Zeal Tame repeat, or Zeal Tame repeat works for even a quick group. The former is about 20 sec per mob, the latter about 15 sec per mob (I'm usually pulling as the rest of the squad is fighting - I try to minimize time spent standing around waiting). If your group can kill them any faster, you should probably think about forgetting pulling. Just aggro a bunch and AOE them.
    In theory my inamorato should work just as well as the marksman if not better, but in practice the marksman rarely if ever dies while the inamorato regularly doesn't survive the pull. I'm not sure if this is just a timing issue, the fact that it's MUCH easier to see the marksman attack, or what but it seems to work the best for me.
    LOL. That's weird. It's exactly the opposite for me. I think something about the Marksman's up-down bouncing motion makes it harder for me to tell when it stops, while the smooth movement of the Inamorato makes it easier for me to see it stop.
  • Zairi - Dreamweaver
    Zairi - Dreamweaver Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    So if i got it right 600hpmore or less dont save the day while pulling. ^^;

    And if i plan to tank with Eldergoth i have to prepare that itll take ages and itll be very easy to steal his aggro. b:chuckle

    Regarding speed i saw that my pets get faster in speed when they level, i hoped that would maybe happen with the range of the pets too. :/

    I think i will stick to the eldergoth for now (got a sharpshooter hes ugly too but purple matches my pink hair :X).

    I feared for his dps beeing horrible tho the moment i saw the 0.5 at attack rate. XD

    I wont get a fast and a ranged pet for pulling since i would want to keep it leveled and uuuh i plan to reach 70 together with my pets this year and i quite didnt get the cube of fate and how to level a pet in there thing so i do it by mindless grindig one-man-armys. XD

    Thanks for the answers you guys realy helped me out.b:victory
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    It's pretty simple in my book:
    • If the target is alone, both the fast pet and ranged pet pull about equally well. Some people prefer to call it twelve, others prefer to call it a dozen.
    • If the target is in a group, the ranged pet pulls much better.
    • If the target is moving, the fast pet pulls somewhat better.

    Most of the difficult pulls you'll encounter involve pulling from groups, so the ranged pet is a more useful puller in the (vast) majority of difficult pull situations. It's also free at a relatively low level (for the marksman).

    That doesn't make the fast pet obsolete though. There are a handful of situations where you want to pull a roaming boss or mob, and it's just easier to time when to send the fast pet. Whether you want a pet dedicated for this purpose is another question though. The range on the L91 cactopod is so good that I'm using it in most of those moving target situations out of sheer laziness (I have it hotkeyed, while to use my kowlin I have to open my pet bag). The difference is not that great, while the difference in group pulls is pretty substantial.

    For regular pulls, I've completely abandoned pets and rely entirely on my Zeal genie and Tame now. Over 99% of my regular mob pulls and over 50% of my boss pulls are with the genie.

    I think i may be missing a joke here but why would you pull a mob that's alone? Do you mean that it may be standing far apart enough from others that it's unlikely other mobs will aggro the pulling pet? Or for positioning it? I often find myself pulling the trioc type mobs in 59, even when there's no apparent need to, as i can apply Slow and having them run forward makes it easier for a Barb to attack them from an angle that will make it unlikely for them to climb walls.

    And wouldn't the (technically) more difficult pulls involve both groups and roaming targets? The circumstance may very well be rare (i have no knowledge of higher level instances) but i often come accross this on 69 when pulling Pole (maybe it's just luck, but for some reason Nob always seems to wander alone) which my Tabby can handle without getting a single hit. I do realize that at higher level instances, mobs will have a larger aggro range as well as fast, ranged attacks, although it would seem to me that on such scenario a ressilient, somewhat fast pet (such as an armored bear using Tough) would make a better choice. Now, i'm not in any way saying ranged pets could not handle these jobs. A high level cacto with all skills deleted may certainly be faster or more convenient when handling several pulls, but would it be the best choice when it comes to "can't afford to miss" lures? The longer range afforded by ranged pets is only effective as it regards the mob being pulled and not those surrounding it, as a veno still has to get to within the same distance to send the pet in.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I think i may be missing a joke here but why would you pull a mob that's alone? Do you mean that it may be standing far apart enough from others that it's unlikely other mobs will aggro the pulling pet?
    LOL - poor phrasing on my part. I meant what you said, although in that situation I'll usually genie pull.
    And wouldn't the (technically) more difficult pulls involve both groups and roaming targets? The circumstance may very well be rare (i have no knowledge of higher level instances) but i often come accross this on 69 when pulling Pole (maybe it's just luck, but for some reason Nob always seems to wander alone) which my Tabby can handle without getting a single hit. I do realize that at higher level instances, mobs will have a larger aggro range as well as fast, ranged attacks, although it would seem to me that on such scenario a ressilient, somewhat fast pet (such as an armored bear using Tough) would make a better choice. Now, i'm not in any way saying ranged pets could not handle these jobs. A high level cacto with all skills deleted may certainly be faster or more convenient when handling several pulls, but would it be the best choice when it comes to "can't afford to miss" lures?
    Bottom line is both ranged and fast pets work. Given the frequency of different situations you encounter where you must pet pull, I'd tip the scales in the ranged pet's favor. Factor in that the ranged pets are free while the fastest pets are rares, and I'd say ranged is definitely the way to go.

    If you already have a fast pet, it works too. But for me its advantage was greatly diminished once I started genie pulling. Prior to genies, there were a lot more situations where I had to pull moving mobs. Now, instead of timing when to send the pet to get the wanderer (where the fast pet has an advantage), I just wait for the wanderer to come close enough and genie pull it. (There also seems to be an inconsistent glitch when pulling from groups and having skills turned off, which favors ranged pets.)
    The longer range afforded by ranged pets is only effective as it regards the mob being pulled and not those surrounding it, as a veno still has to get to within the same distance to send the pet in.
    Well, you have to be the same distance to send the pet in. But a ranged pet will stop to attack further away, so you can run further back while the pet is running towards the mob. That can buy you an extra second or two, which is really important if you have a herc which needs buffing and bash-enabling after the summon.
  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    b:thanks Thank you for your quick reply Solandri, as usual it was a well balanced and useful response.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    That doesn't make the fast pet obsolete though. There are a handful of situations where you want to pull a roaming boss or mob, and it's just easier to time when to send the fast pet. Whether you want a pet dedicated for this purpose is another question though.

    Stress that last part because I can't think of a single time I'd use a pet to lure a fast mob. The only advantage I can think of is it might gain aggro faster off someone that got aggro when there isn't a cleric around. Hardly makes it worth the effort of having / maintaining one.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • xxxdsmer
    xxxdsmer Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    eldergoth marksman > lv4 cactus.

    but the fb89 cacti have a range of about 15 meters, even though they're squisher than the eldergoth, they outreach the eldergoth so may be worth getting one at that lvl (89-92ish?)

    for ranged luring pets thats all there is. if just comparing the eldergoth and lv4 cactus, mays well have the better defense because as far as i know the lv4 cactus dosent reach any farther
    i'm pro all classes, and against none in particular..
    but the age old QQ about venos is just that. OLD.
    QQ'd about a nix lately? check out this thread n tell me who's "OP" lol..
    (copy and paste this to address bar):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=102172