Advice for future demon venos

Isn't Venomous suposed to be the skill that Demons use for phys res debuff? If i understood correctly Ironwood gains a chance to drop resistances to zero.

Demon ironwood is more for PvP than PvE.

Also, instead of being so upset over it sucking, ever tried ddemon ironwood -> human rainbow -> fox rainbow?

Odds are you'll land a break within two to three times of that chain.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Isn't Venomous suposed to be the skill that Demons use for phys res debuff? If i understood correctly Ironwood gains a chance to drop resistances to zero.

Venemous is a wood debuff, ironwood is a chance of a phys break.

We've hashed over this before. If you compare 100% pdef debuff @ 20%, vs 40% pdef debuff @ 100%, which of the two is on average better depends on the pdef of the target.

For high pdef targets (PvP), the chance at a 100% debuff from Demon results in more damage on average.

For low pdef targets (PvE), the guaranteed 40% debuff of Sage results in more damage on average.

Consider yourself forewarned.

i love dark iron wood... it hits often enough for me anyways. the dmg of the skill is nearly double, and so what if u dont hit defense reduce anyways, its not like it was really that much reduced in the first place. even in times where i have aggro over a mob (like TT mobs for instance), once hitting 100% phy reduce, the pet steals back aggro, thats how good it is. its also real nice if u hit a person with it in pvp xD

also, if you want phy reduction so bad, just put the skill on your pet, problem solved, also with more reduction than lvl 10 ironwood.

The way I see it both demon and sage ironwood are equal in power.

Sage ironwood always grants a decrease in p def to the target and extends the duration

While demon version gives a chance to decrease the target's p def to 0.

All in all, if demon version worked 100% of the time, it would be over powered i guess.

Demon Ironwood is excellent if you group up a lot. Almost all classes have some form of physical defense debuff, which is as good if not better than Sage Ironwood. And if the debuff from Demon Ironwood fails, it doesn't overwrite the physical debuff that's probably already on the target.

Granted, Sage Ironwood is much better if you run solo. a 40% debuff that can be kept up 100% of the time is much better than a 100% debuff that only works 20% of the time (in PvE).

actually i dont think its like that. for the first thing with the math, 55% and 40% doesnt make it 95% reduce pdef, its more like 73%. that means its not a sum, its more like a multiple of percents
final_pdef = (1 - 0.55) * (1 - 0.4) * initial_pdef

for the second thing, people said like an armor break is equivalent with demon ironwood and i dont think so. i never tested or asked people whats their pdef after ironwood but if its actually reduced to zero or is something like 1 in stats to deal max pet damage like there is no defense opposed then its not the same with armor break. ok armor break is 100% reduce pdef and that doesnt mean it completely removes your pdef (negate pdef). you know, in this weird game where percentages are weird there are skills like bm marrows that reduce pdef by 120%. do they get negative defenses? no... its more like reducing in half and something that defense. its the same thing for armor break, its more like reducing half of the defense, same like clerics buffs never add their percentages in description. so unless demon ironwood is actually reduce 100% pdef and not negate your pdef then is equivalent to armor breaks from myriad. now, it could be completely both wrong and get totally other stats with both debuffs... who knows
long story short, probably that demon ironwood helps physical attack classes to deal damage that is displayed in their physical attack (completely negate target pdef) but i dont think myriad does that

Somewhere I did actual tests and posted it here before I reached the 103 str by adding 16 from genie gears. Even at that point it seemed far better than Myriad's armor break considering it's duration.

If I were a 5aps sin, bm, archer, barb, whatever: I believe I'd prefer the veno with -55 + -40 to the one with a long shot at -100%. Some toons have a -50% pdef debuff also that can be used with the genie skill. One of the worst things about Myriad is it will over write a newly laiden Ironwood and only last long enough for you to get 2-3 shots in if that.

The biggest drawback to the genie skill is that it cost ~400 coin to use and yet can be over written or rendered useless by other skills. It also only benefits my pet or me when in Fox.

kenlee wrote: »

i dont know how is here but basic math says that if target has 1k pdef for example and then you apply tangling mire it will have 450pdef after that. now since target has 450 pdef and you gonna remove 40% with ironwood from what he has now its gonna end in 270 pdef. so thats 73% which is the initial formula, no matter what order you used. now, from my point of view its impossible to remove over 99.99% pdef (like 55% from genie and 50% from other skill like tweakz said) with my formula but seeing that you can get removed like 120% (marrow) and such things amaze me how this game use percentages.

emm,... any bm that uses marrow maybe tell if unbuffed before and with just marrow after, what the diffrence is exactly ???
maybe that ll help how this game does its percentages???

kenlee wrote: »

from my point of view its impossible to remove over 99.99% pdef (like 55% from genie and 50% from other skill like tweakz said) with my formula but seeing that you can get removed like 120% (marrow) and such things amaze me how this game use percentages.

Like Brael said, the buffs (and debuffs like marrow) work based off your base defense. So if you had 1000 pdef and got the 60% cleric buff, you'd be at 1600 pdef. But then if you got hit by armor break (100% debuff), it would only remove 100% of your base 1000, so you'd be at 600 pdef.

When a debuff removes more than 100%, it either sets you at zero, or if you've got a buff, it starts to remove from the buff. So the 120% debuff from marrow would put the BM at 0 pdef unbuffed. But with the cleric buff, he'd be at 1600 - 1200 = 400 pdef. Since BMs always have a 60%-90% pdef buff, the -120% pdef loss isn't as big a deal as might seem at first glance.

I haven't tested it for defense debuffs in particular, but this is how the defense buffs, accuracy buffs and bonuses, and accuracy debuffs worked. Seems like it'd be trivial to test in 5 min by someone with access to the game right now. Just duel a friend, have them note their pdef without debuff, with debuff, and with two debuffs.

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Buffs work off of the base rate, you don't get base*fox form*cleric buff*bm buff, you get base+base*fox+base*cleric+base*bm. I'm assuming debuffs would work the same way.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

When a debuff removes more than 100%, it either sets you at zero, or if you've got a buff, it starts to remove from the buff. So the 120% debuff from marrow would put the BM at 0 pdef unbuffed. But with the cleric buff, he'd be at 1600 - 1200 = 400 pdef. Since BMs always have a 60%-90% pdef buff, the -120% pdef loss isn't as big a deal as might seem at first glance.

while for buffs its like 1 plus every percentage of every buff you have and all multiplied with initial value of defence i dont think it works for debuffs, like i said before. while with buffs you can get infinite positive stats (above zero) i dont think anyone got negative stats so far. i played bm for long time and no, not even once i got negative/zero def or close to it in whatever scenario you can imagine... coz that is what you say
lets not forget that those buffs dont even have that percentage in practice, its less from theory/description