Barb versus BM 5.0

TigerLily - Lost City
TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
edited August 2010 in Barbarian
If anyone can make a decent comparison? How much less dmg do you deal as 5.0 barb compare to a BM (if both have similar builds). What are the pros and cons if you compare the 2.

I know Demon Poison Fang adds 50% wood dmg which i guess would make up for some of the loss of not having Fist mastery.

My archers is 5.0 and most stuff is unbound (Nirvana pants + Deicide etc) so i can easily put it on another char thats more suitable to actually tank stuff than a squishy archer.

Question is should i level my demon barb from 95 to 100 and make him 5.0 or is it worth it to level up a BM instead.
Post edited by TigerLily - Lost City on

Comments

  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Actually someone posted the damage output difference somewhere on the boards (can't remember where) and stated that Barbs actually have a little bit more damage at 5 aps than BMs due to our wood buff. Somewhere around 15-30 more damage if I remember.
    Some people risk to employ me

    Some people live to destroy me

    Either way they die
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Assuming the barb doesn't buff the BM, the Barb will actually have greater damage.
  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    truekossy wrote: »
    Assuming the barb doesn't buff the BM, the Barb will actually have greater damage.

    Poison Fang is self buff only. Doesn't affect other players in squad.
    Some people risk to employ me

    Some people live to destroy me

    Either way they die
  • Bartack - Heavens Tear
    Bartack - Heavens Tear Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Yeah that was me and here is the post:

    Made 2 comparisons for fist barb and fist bm, now assuming the fist stratagy is hit til demon spark and repeat, the two are very similar. Now the barb has damage from Poison Fang that doesnt show in calc, +483-571 for 5924-6692 damage per hit, a very small difference from the bm'd damage, and more than made up for by the extra 4% crit

    Barb
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f80503abef24cf81
    Demon sparked at 5 attacks per second and a crit rate of 28% average over 100 seconds, DPS = 67339.2 (this includes damage from demon poison fang)

    Bladmaster
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8d0ec812e587cd6c
    Demon sparked at 5 attacks per second and a crit rate of 24% average over 100 seconds, DPS = 65468.9

    Now keep in mind that this advantage only holds for 60seconds after demon titans buff. The BM will take a very slight damage lead after the crit part of the buff wears off. Aslo, if you buff BM with titans he will do more DPS than you (if you are exact same build/gear).
  • Cybetron - Harshlands
    Cybetron - Harshlands Posts: 153 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I'll assume that you would want a toon to PvP with (I've followed your posts in Archers forums). The comparison between a 5.0 aps barb and BM leads to the kind of target they've. If the target/victim is an HA then the barb would do slightly (I'll post the figures later, don't have them on the current PC) more damage than the BM since we've our Poison Fang which does elemental damage.

    But I'll assume that you would want to use your toon WITH SKILLS instead of swinging arms at 5.0 aps. So these are the pros and cons:

    Pros:

    1. Beastial Onslaught (free 35% crit for 6 seconds) - if the target is stunned and this skill is proc'd, then you will have around 60% crit for 6 seconds (with fists) - barb becomes more like a sin.

    2. Mighty Swing - 60% chance to stun but never miss skill.

    3. Armageddon - use this skill after B.O (when the target is stunned) and if it crits or zerks then you will be left with too little of victim's HP (if any) or a charm tick and you can claw your way to your victim's demise.

    4. High HP

    5. If you feel that you are losing a match then use a skill to grant immunity and annoy your attacker or buy some time.

    The rest of the passive skills combine to give us about the same attack power as that of the BMs. The tiger skills aren't worth mentioning since you have to illegally glitch to get to the form with claws. If you still want the advantages then, HUGE HP and pdef gain, Reduces pdef by 50% for 15 seconds (use it with Mire to make quite an impact), Sunder to get 5 seconds of pure CRITS.

    Cons: 1. No chain stunning skills. If we can't keep a person stunned (with Swing and Occult Ice) then we might lose the edge and in many cases the match.

    2. Only one ulti with 2 sparks and is a huge risk.

    3. No amplifying skill to increase the damage of TE 4 folds and one shot mages b:surrender

    If you are looking for a pure strategic fist user whose kills depend on his use of a chain of skills, then a BM is the right way to go.

    If you like instance-farming, tanking WBs for profits and also looking for a fist user with whom you have a chance to one shot alot of other classes, yet have the survivability to run away or tank attacks, then go level your barb to 100 b:pleased
  • Cirax - Dreamweaver
    Cirax - Dreamweaver Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    truekossy wrote: »
    Assuming the barb doesn't buff the BM, the Barb will actually have greater damage.
    Poison Fang is self buff only. Doesn't affect other players in squad.

    I think he meant as long as the BM doesn't get the Strength of the Titans buff. From what I'm seeing in this thread, if a barb and bm only have their own buffs, then the barb would do a little more damage over time.
    Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.

    ~Albert Einstien
  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I think he meant as long as the BM doesn't get the Strength of the Titans buff. From what I'm seeing in this thread, if a barb and bm only have their own buffs, then the barb would do a little more damage over time.

    Ah, gotcha.
    Some people risk to employ me

    Some people live to destroy me

    Either way they die
  • Muffindudez - Dreamweaver
    Muffindudez - Dreamweaver Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    but would a barb in tiger form still be able to do 5.0 aps? or does tiger form have a set attack rate?
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Well techinically you can't use tiger form with fists, only with axes or unarmed, so no.


    However, there is a way to swtich to tiger form with claws equipped, and I'll just leave it at that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Well techinically you can't use tiger form with fists, only with axes or unarmed, so no.


    However, there is a way to swtich to tiger form with claws equipped, and I'll just leave it at that.

    Pretty much this.

    The only way you could get 5.0 in tiger is via abusing a bug, which is bannable.
  • Bartack - Heavens Tear
    Bartack - Heavens Tear Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    truekossy wrote: »
    Pretty much this.

    The only way you could get 5.0 in tiger is via abusing a bug, which is bannable.

    Heh, there are two ways to do it...but both can get you banned, so uh, don't do it.
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Yeah that was me and here is the post:

    Made 2 comparisons for fist barb and fist bm, now assuming the fist stratagy is hit til demon spark and repeat, the two are very similar. Now the barb has damage from Poison Fang that doesnt show in calc, +483-571 for 5924-6692 damage per hit, a very small difference from the bm'd damage, and more than made up for by the extra 4% crit

    Barb
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f80503abef24cf81
    Demon sparked at 5 attacks per second and a crit rate of 28% average over 100 seconds, DPS = 67339.2 (this includes damage from demon poison fang)

    Bladmaster
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=8d0ec812e587cd6c
    Demon sparked at 5 attacks per second and a crit rate of 24% average over 100 seconds, DPS = 65468.9

    Now keep in mind that this advantage only holds for 60seconds after demon titans buff. The BM will take a very slight damage lead after the crit part of the buff wears off. Aslo, if you buff BM with titans he will do more DPS than you (if you are exact same build/gear).

    Adding onto this post TigerLily, barbs can also get nirvana axes with double damage. If you have both of these weapons, a barb is scary. Also when we go to solo things we can switch to axes and turtle it much better then BMs with our invoke and other skills.

    As others have pointed out we have demon beastial onslaught for 35% more crit, our sunder gives us auto crits for 5 seconds, and arma is the hardest hitting skill (with onslaught or sunder) I can think of right now.

    We will also get more HP per vit so we will general have more of an HP pool then a BM, and we will get more phys def from vit stones etc.

    I'm slowly working on ultimate full nirvana 5.0 build for my barb. 25-30k hp standing with 34k phys def, with claws 15k-17k atk range 5.0 atk/sec and nirvana axes 23k-35k atk range 1.5 atk/sec WITH double damage. b:shocked
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • HippiePanda - Sanctuary
    HippiePanda - Sanctuary Posts: 91 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    We will also get more HP per vit so we will general have more of an HP pool then a BM, and we will get more phys def from vit stones etc.

    BM will always have more Phy Def (Alter Marrow Physical)
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    BM will always have more Phy Def (Alter Marrow Physical)

    So everyone that goes to solo instances never asks for any buffs?
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    BM will always have more Phy Def (Alter Marrow Physical)

    There is a downside to that. Their mdef goes way down when using marrow. If a BM is stupid enough to use that when fighting me, I just slap them with thunderstorm and watch them drop like a stone.
    Some people risk to employ me

    Some people live to destroy me

    Either way they die
  • Cybetron - Harshlands
    Cybetron - Harshlands Posts: 153 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    @Xarathox Most of the BMs (especially the fist BMs with 6k HP b:surrender ) fight with Alter Marrow which makes me love my Demon B.O and Bramble Rage + Arma b:victory If you like what you do with thunderstorm try BR, you will absolutely love it b:chuckle
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    And the BMs honestly don't use balance?


    Or even use bell's phys def boost + magic marrow?


    Wow... those BMs must be pretty terribad.
  • Cybetron - Harshlands
    Cybetron - Harshlands Posts: 153 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Balance? Heck, I've seen them miss-time AD to block my Arma alot of times b:surrender They use Frenzy and cloud eruption alot to get to that 3 spark and think that we barbs are stupid enough to tank it b:shutup

    I've also seen some of them getting one shot by a crit on BR. But then again I've seen some of them block my Arma, used my charm tick against me, sprint to catch up to my four legs, waited till my VT wore off, chain stunned me using axes and fists, 3 sparked and killed me within seconds of being stunned (once my AD is in cooldown). It goes both ways I guess. Always loved a BM who could stun lock me instead of relying entirely on their obnoxious swinging arms.