Attack Level and Defense Level Demystified

azukaya wrote: »

Yes; I proposed a linear funtion (Ax+B) for atk lv < def lv , and a inverse linear funtion C/(x-D) for def lv < atk lv. Thats right.

I know that +1 atk cancels +1def. The formula I gived dont break that rule, despite the defense is overweight.

I ve only glanced the thread, and read some parts. Ok I ll see all carefully.

But can you tell me since now, in what part of the thread there are experimantal datas about the no linearity, WHEN ATK LV IS BIGGER THAN DEF LV.
And in what part of the thread are there experimental information about the damage of a +100 atk level over a +0 def level. I did a fast searching and I didnt find this information.

This is where it gets messy. My original discomfort of you posting was because of:

1. You proposed a generic methodology that these testers know. I recommend you dig through some Archer research in the useful link section because it shows that the people who run these test on PW mechanics do know how to construct experiments.

2. Your second post basically reiterates that +30atk level = +30% damage which was already done.

The actual threshold is still unknown but there's a general indication of where it lies based on here.

A basic summary can be found here. And of course, most of what has been discussed can be found on the first post.

When I told you to "read the thread" I was actually holding a gripe on your +30atk lvl = +30% damage because it really seemed like you didn't read the thread.

Oh and my mistake, the atk lvl statement I made above (and previously) is false. It's linear when +def lvl is not involved.

edit: fixing some linking issues - browser also going haywire on me...

azukaya wrote: »

if (atk lv > def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( (atk lv - def lv) / 100 ) )

if (atk lv < def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + (1,2* (def lv - atk lv) / 100 ) )

FIT WELL IN ALL THE TESTS

They do not seem to be completely accurate here? http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7777152&postcount=20

asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

i Just Did A Test To Get Some More Data With A High Level Psychic.. Here's The Data From Before



And Here Is The New Data With Even Higher Defense Level Along With Predictions From Proposed Formulas.

Att	Def	Dam	(a-d)/100	1.01^(a-d)	.99^(d-a)	
0	0	836	836		836		836
0	66	466	284		433		430	
0	76	437	200		392		389
20	76	500	367		478		476

Defense Level Is Less Effective At High Defense Levels Than Any Proposed Formula. At High Defense Levels Every Defense Level Seems To Further Reduce Damage By Only About 0.6% More. I Don't Yet See A Grand Unified Formula That Works Over The Full Range Of Values. Fiting A Formula To High Defense Levels Doesnt Work Well With Lower Levels And Vice Versa.

Any Guesses? I'd Really Like To Fix The First Post.

edit: Fixed Copy Paste Error

Using these formulas:

if (atk lv > def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( (atk lv - def lv) / 100 ) )

if (atk lv < def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + (1,18* (def lv - atk lv) / 100 ) )

We predict the following:

Att	Def	Dam	(a-d)/100	1.01^(a-d)	.99^(d-a)	my prediction			
0	0	836	836		836		836		836
0	66	466	284		433		430		470
0	76	437	200		392		389		441
20	76	500	367		478		476		503

And using these other formulas:

if (atk lv > def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( (atk lv - def lv) / 100 ) )

if (atk lv < def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + (1,2* (def lv - atk lv) / 100 ) )

We predict the following:

Att	Def	Dam	(a-d)/100	1.01^(a-d)	.99^(d-a)	my prediction			
0	0	836	836		836		836		836
0	66	466	284		433		430		467
0	76	437	200		392		389		437
20	76	500	367		478		476		500

Ok, have I understood it right that adding defence lvls up to 40, will add yield an equal return on investment for every +2 Def shard you add?

Where as every +2 Def shard you add after +40 Def lvls will give you diminishing returns?

So with 5 pieces of Nirvana gear, and event neck and belt, you would gain the most return by adding 14 Jades of steady defence, and adding more of these will be less effective, to a point where adding +10Vit or Citrine gems will add you a larger % increase in survivability?

Sorry if I'm mistaken, I'm just trying to translate all this giberish into some info that is useful to my actual gameplay b:cute

Archers must be so smart people
my head hurt reading thisb:sad

fulgida wrote: »

We do not have enough data for enough different cases to say that the error will always be less than 1%.

Meanwhile, 1% can mean the difference between winning and losing.

It is my last proposal, while you dont have a large amount of experimental information or a better formula:

if (atk lv > def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( {atk lv} - {def lv} ) / 100 ) )

if (atk lv < def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + (1,2* ( {def lv} - {atk lv} ) / 100 ) )

where {} means enter part or truncate the number; for example {41,8}=41.

Using this last two formulas we get the following:

"+atk lv"	"+def lv"	basis damage	damage		damage prediction			
0		0		1227		1227		1227
0		41,8		1227		822		822
0		36,3		1227		856		857
20		41,8		1227		980		980
20		36,3		1227		1029		1029
0		5,5		1227		1157		1158
20		5		1227		1411		1411
20		0		1227		1472		1472

Pd. I am a wizard

Ive just realized that these formulas fit exactly in all the experimental datas displayed:

if (atk lv > def lv) then:

damage taken = { damage delivered * ( 1 + ({ atk lv } - { def lv }) / 100 ) }

if (atk lv < def lv) then:

damage taken = { damage delivered / ( 1 + (1,2 * ({ def lv } - { atk lv }) / 100 ) ) }

Where {} means enter part or truncate the number; for example { 367,9 } = 367

Templar - Sanctuary wrote: »

So at end is it good going full def lvl in armors or no?
b:chuckle

I am lv 70, so I dont have experience with the end game gear; neither with the highest levels characters.

An accurate answer its not simple, because it depends on many things; depends on how much you have in almost every state that appear in your character paper (hp, physical defense, elemental reistances, defense level, ...); depends on if you have buffs that increase some states; depends on the level of the person/mob that is attacking to you. Depends on your hp regeneration (this include powders, pots and healing, in case of be making use these things continuously) and depends on the intensity of the damage for second delivered by the person/mob is attacking you; in every distinct case, each state have somewhat different worth. And it depends too on your interests, if you rather be somewhat better in short combats where you recieve ultra high damage for second, or in long combats.

But I can tell you 2 things without more information.

1. Maybe go for full +def wont be the absolutely best possible option for you, or maybe it will be actually the absolutely best possible option for you. But what is always true, is that go for full +def never will be a bad option for anyone with decent hp, defense and resistances. Even more, I believe that full +def could be the best way to go in most of the cases.

2. And a rule that is always true.

If "a" is what you have of +def; "b" is what you have of hp; "c" is the amount in which you can increase your +def and "d" is the amount in which you can increase your hp instead increase your +def.

Always that: "(1+1,2(a+c)/100)/(1+1,2a/100) >= (c+d)/c" you must choose the +def over the hp.

but "(1+1,2(a+c)/100)/(1+1,2a/100) < (c+d)/c" dont necessary mean that you must choose the hp over the +def.

For example in my personal case the last proposals yields that +2def lv worth at least 82hp, but in my personal case regarding all my information and my personal interests; Ive ponderend that a +2 def lv worth for me in my current game somewhat more than 130hp.

And in my particular case +2def is equivalent too, to (+80 of physical defense, +118 of metal resistance, +118 wood resistance, +118 fire resistances, +124 of water resistance and +95 earth reistance)
Note: this information go over the gear; you need multiply this datas for such coeficients in order you can calculate your final states of physical defense and elemental resistances.

My information:

I am a well equipped lv 70 light armor wizard.

vit 29 (this dont matter to the calculation)
str 78 (this dont matter to the calculation)
dex 74 (this dont matter to the calculation)
mag 218 (this dont matter to the calculation)

Basis physical damage: 606-856 (this dont matter to the calculation)
Basis magical damage: 3174-3597 (this dont matter to the calculation)
Chance of critical: 4% (this dont matter to the calculation)

3424 of hp

4253 in physical defense with my own buff

3450 in metal, wood and fire resistance

3777 in water resistance

6240 in earth resistance with my own buff

494 evasion

0 +defense level

0 -%of physical damage taken

0 -%of magical damage taken

4 hp/sec of natural hp recovery

physical defense coeficient, with my str, vit attributes and my own buff: 2,12

metal, water, wood and fire resistance coeficient, with my mag and vit attributes: 1,28

earth reistance coeficient with mag, vit attributes and my own buff: 2,28

And my speciality or main interest:

fight against 3 magical lv70 mobs or 5 melee lv70 mobs at the same time (kill 5 melee mobs is easier for me than kill 3 rang mobs because with my aoe skill dragon breath, they die at the same time pretty fast, and I last almost the same time alife being hitted by 5 melee mobs that being harmed by the magical attacks of 3 magical mobs); all of this using hp powder (+50 hp recovery), using lv60 health pots continuously while I am in that intense combat, and using second wind like reserve.

EDIT: Actually regarding that my second wind give me 1512hp more hp; the +2def lv would worth for me somewhat more than 188hp.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oooo very nice. I'll try to confirm this with some more data.

EDIT Now with the jones blessing I'm able to test higher attack levels and can confirm the linear formula is exact up to an attack level of 55

DEF	ATT	DAM	1+(A-D)/100
0	0	643	643
0	5	675	675
0	20	772	772
0	25	804	804
0	30	836	836
0	35	868	868
0	50	965	965
0	55	997	997

Excuse me for the question; Im curious to know about it. Where did you get a +lv55 blessing jones?

azukaya wrote: »

Excuse me for the question; Im curious to know about it. Where did you get a +lv55 blessing jones?

+30 from blessing, +20 from frenzy, +5 from shards/gear?

I'm just assuming. =/

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Does Defense Level affect damage taken form DoTs? This would matter against a Phoenix, right?

DoT's Ignore defense level completely.

If a psy has 100 deff lvl and a nix bleeds you, you take direct damage as if u had 0 deff lvl ^^

That's why Psy's use Earth and Water DoT's against other Psy's or people with high Deff lvl, it damages them directly and is quite usefull when you nuke them and they try to heal.


A psy with 100 attk lvl won't deal more with DoT's I believe, the DoT's are based on base magical attack and on certain amount of damage over time~


b:bye
Hope that answers your questions, since no one else did ^^

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

im getting 24 jades, +3 def cube neck, +5 def from r9 ring + 5 from lunar helm n robe, +3 def from r9 chest,+8 def from daily bless + 20def from r9 set bonus + seeker buf 3 def

thats 95 def lvl.should be 106% dmg reduction, means a tt boss that would hit me 10k will hit heal me when it hits?b:sad

should hit you in the region of 1,5-2,5k'ish i guess. cos wite voodoo on full def lvl psy still get hit like 1k i think it was.. by beast in 3-3.

Socket Calculator: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=994202

Yes, the archer forum is (in)famous for its maths.