Blazing Arrow Demystified
Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
Posts: 7,881 Arc User
There seems to be still some lack of understanding around Blazing Arrow and I decided to have some nerd fun and quantify the effect. What I found was somewhat surprising. Feel free to jump to the TL;DR Conclusions, I won't be offended.
Verifying Skills
Part 1 of this investigation consisted of throwing every archer skill imaginable at KunKun, everyone's favorite elemental immune mega-boss. If KunKun is hit with even a small amount of fire damage, he will show a "resist" to other people. This can't be used to verify metal skills but all other skills from Take Aim to Blood Vow were tested. For metal skills I found a lvl 1 mob and checked if I was able to inflict more damage than my maximum base damage plus the fixed metal damage from the skill. This was only possible with blazing.
1) All skills except Winged Pledge receive fire damage from blazing
Yes, Wingspan and Barrage get fire damage but poor Winged Pledge does not. I had previously thought Thunderous Blast did not receive fire damage since firing it appeared to be fully resisted by a metal-immune but I later learned this strategy is not reliable and could have false negatives.
Not satisfied I wanted to not only know when damage was added but also exactly how much.
Selecting the Test Subjuct
The ideal way to test blazing arrow would be to have a bow that does a fixed amount of damage and shoot at a physical immune lvl 0 mob with 0 fire resistance and tons of HP. This bow does not exist and neither does the mob b:cry
Ohh well, gotta make do with what you got and I settled on this little bugger:
Ancient Sea Dragon
I then proceeded to shoot hundreds and hundreds of arrows into the mighty beast both normal and with blazing. I transcribed my damage log and corrected for crits / physical resistance.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3076/blazing.jpg
Keep in mind I find this more enjoyable than actually playing the game at this point so don't judge too harshly.
Quantifying The Results
In my control trial I noticed a couple of normal arrows that fell slightly higher than my calculated maximum. In looking at the numbers it seems like his resistance was slightly lower than expected. Here I found a new result:
2) Physical resistance multiplier is rounded to the nearest percentage.
So if you resist 46% against a level 100 mob that's exactly 46%!!!! Ehh I guess noone's all that excited about that but it effected the calculations. I made sure to factor in this adjusted resistance in analyzing the second trial with blazing.
The difference between the average damage between the first trial and the second trial should be equal to the fire damage added by blazing. The accepted formula showed that it should be 13% higher than the control value but the actual result was only 9% higher, significantly less than expected b:angry
I guessed maybe some parts of the weapon attack formula did not apply. As a reminder:
weapon attack = attack from weapons + attack from ammo + attack from other equipment + your level
These values work exactly when factoring in damage added by things like spark, barb buff, and gloom. Maybe for blazing the ammo doesnt count? Maybe the level shouldn't be there? No matter what though the formula didn't quite make sense.
Finally I looked at the distribution of the damage and noticed something odd. Not only was the average fire damage added 490, this 490 added fire damage was consistent damage across all shots. No matter how much damage the bow actually did I got exactly 490 more damage.
3) The fire damage added by blazing arrow is a FIXED value no matter how much damage the attack does
Realizing I'm an Idiot
In preparing to figure out where this damage comes from I realized I was an idiot and came up with a much better way to measure fire damage. Ruffling around in my pockets I pulled out a genie with Expel and a pet Quilue. An expelled Quilue has physical immunity should only take fire damage from normal shots. For any archers that don't have a pet Quilue I highly recommend getting one as they make great target practice.
I equipped the genie on my Quilue and proceeded to open fire. Interestingly shooting the Quilue will still show "Resist" but checking the damage log reveals the fire damage, showing that "Resist" is not always true. This confirmed not only was the fire damage constant for any normal attack, but all skills produced the same damage as well. The value still didn't seem like anything obvious, until I started swapping gear.
Using a lvl 1 bow cut the fire damage to almost nothing while swapping out rings had no effect on fire damage. Finally an exact formula became apparent.
4) Fire Damage = (minimum attack of bow + maximum attack of bow) / 2 * Blazing Arrow Percent
or
Fire Damage = Average Damage from WEAPON ONLY * Blazing Arrow Percent
With this fomula I could exactly predict the fire damage.
Why this is Surprising
Blazing arrow does not use the same weapon attack as that used by sparks or skills like Take Aim. That weapon attack includes damage from rings, ammo, and attack charms. Blazing arrow only uses your bow (or other weapon) and comes up with a fixed damage from that. Bow damage includes base bow damage, damage from bow adds, and damage from garnet gems in bows, nothing else. This happens to explain why unarmed punches have no fire damage, no bow.
TL;DR Conclusions
1) All skills receive fire damage except for Winged Pledge
2) The fire damage added is a fixed value equal independent of skill damage
3) Fire Damage = Average Damage from weapon only * Blazing Arrow %
4) Physical and magical resistance amount is exactly rounded to the nearest percentage
Conjecture not tested
Frostblade and wood apothecary behave the same as Blazing.
Verifying Skills
Part 1 of this investigation consisted of throwing every archer skill imaginable at KunKun, everyone's favorite elemental immune mega-boss. If KunKun is hit with even a small amount of fire damage, he will show a "resist" to other people. This can't be used to verify metal skills but all other skills from Take Aim to Blood Vow were tested. For metal skills I found a lvl 1 mob and checked if I was able to inflict more damage than my maximum base damage plus the fixed metal damage from the skill. This was only possible with blazing.
1) All skills except Winged Pledge receive fire damage from blazing
Yes, Wingspan and Barrage get fire damage but poor Winged Pledge does not. I had previously thought Thunderous Blast did not receive fire damage since firing it appeared to be fully resisted by a metal-immune but I later learned this strategy is not reliable and could have false negatives.
Not satisfied I wanted to not only know when damage was added but also exactly how much.
Selecting the Test Subjuct
The ideal way to test blazing arrow would be to have a bow that does a fixed amount of damage and shoot at a physical immune lvl 0 mob with 0 fire resistance and tons of HP. This bow does not exist and neither does the mob b:cry
Ohh well, gotta make do with what you got and I settled on this little bugger:
Ancient Sea Dragon
I then proceeded to shoot hundreds and hundreds of arrows into the mighty beast both normal and with blazing. I transcribed my damage log and corrected for crits / physical resistance.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3076/blazing.jpg
Keep in mind I find this more enjoyable than actually playing the game at this point so don't judge too harshly.
Quantifying The Results
In my control trial I noticed a couple of normal arrows that fell slightly higher than my calculated maximum. In looking at the numbers it seems like his resistance was slightly lower than expected. Here I found a new result:
2) Physical resistance multiplier is rounded to the nearest percentage.
So if you resist 46% against a level 100 mob that's exactly 46%!!!! Ehh I guess noone's all that excited about that but it effected the calculations. I made sure to factor in this adjusted resistance in analyzing the second trial with blazing.
The difference between the average damage between the first trial and the second trial should be equal to the fire damage added by blazing. The accepted formula showed that it should be 13% higher than the control value but the actual result was only 9% higher, significantly less than expected b:angry
I guessed maybe some parts of the weapon attack formula did not apply. As a reminder:
weapon attack = attack from weapons + attack from ammo + attack from other equipment + your level
These values work exactly when factoring in damage added by things like spark, barb buff, and gloom. Maybe for blazing the ammo doesnt count? Maybe the level shouldn't be there? No matter what though the formula didn't quite make sense.
Finally I looked at the distribution of the damage and noticed something odd. Not only was the average fire damage added 490, this 490 added fire damage was consistent damage across all shots. No matter how much damage the bow actually did I got exactly 490 more damage.
3) The fire damage added by blazing arrow is a FIXED value no matter how much damage the attack does
Realizing I'm an Idiot
In preparing to figure out where this damage comes from I realized I was an idiot and came up with a much better way to measure fire damage. Ruffling around in my pockets I pulled out a genie with Expel and a pet Quilue. An expelled Quilue has physical immunity should only take fire damage from normal shots. For any archers that don't have a pet Quilue I highly recommend getting one as they make great target practice.
I equipped the genie on my Quilue and proceeded to open fire. Interestingly shooting the Quilue will still show "Resist" but checking the damage log reveals the fire damage, showing that "Resist" is not always true. This confirmed not only was the fire damage constant for any normal attack, but all skills produced the same damage as well. The value still didn't seem like anything obvious, until I started swapping gear.
Using a lvl 1 bow cut the fire damage to almost nothing while swapping out rings had no effect on fire damage. Finally an exact formula became apparent.
4) Fire Damage = (minimum attack of bow + maximum attack of bow) / 2 * Blazing Arrow Percent
or
Fire Damage = Average Damage from WEAPON ONLY * Blazing Arrow Percent
With this fomula I could exactly predict the fire damage.
Why this is Surprising
Blazing arrow does not use the same weapon attack as that used by sparks or skills like Take Aim. That weapon attack includes damage from rings, ammo, and attack charms. Blazing arrow only uses your bow (or other weapon) and comes up with a fixed damage from that. Bow damage includes base bow damage, damage from bow adds, and damage from garnet gems in bows, nothing else. This happens to explain why unarmed punches have no fire damage, no bow.
TL;DR Conclusions
1) All skills receive fire damage except for Winged Pledge
2) The fire damage added is a fixed value equal independent of skill damage
3) Fire Damage = Average Damage from weapon only * Blazing Arrow %
4) Physical and magical resistance amount is exactly rounded to the nearest percentage
Conjecture not tested
Frostblade and wood apothecary behave the same as Blazing.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Post edited by Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 on
0
Comments
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I love the archer forums.0
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Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »I love the archer forums.
+1
One of the reasons I havent rerolled is bc of this[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Un4given0 -
Thank you, Asterelle, for taking the time to prove my point: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=667182 When you look at damage figures, graphs and projections over an extended period of time, sometimes you just "know" without doing all the math and calculations... but they're so much fun, I'm glad to see them done. b:victoryb:victoryb:victory
And.... welcome back to the game5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver0 -
Great work! Yay for more Archer Research.0
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Frostblade and wood apothecary behave the same as Blazing.
Btw, nice charts there. Still wondering how you conjured up the time to do all that b:shocked●Wizard (Male) - Fasditious and pretentious, carries the arrogance of intellectual superiority. Feels the need to remind everyone of his world-ending power, but grows a little manic and unhinged when he finally is allowed to unleash it. "Ahh-hahahahaha!! NOW YOU ALL BURN!!!!"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »To save you time: They do. Frostblade merely adds water damage equivalent to my own base magic attack, so sparks will not amplify that damage.
Btw, nice charts there. Still wondering how you conjured up the time to do all that b:shocked
I believe Frostblade is a % of the person's weapon damage that you cast on, not the caster's m.atk.
i.e buffing a lvl 1 bm for example will not really add a significant amount of damage with a lvl 10/11 FB.0 -
Rhetorical question of the thread:
When you expelled pet Quilue's armor, did her resistances come down too and was she fully susceptible to your magical advances? b:chuckle5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »I believe Frostblade is a % of the person's weapon damage that you cast on, not the caster's m.atk.
i.e buffing a lvl 1 bm for example will not really add a significant amount of damage with a lvl 10/11 FB.Breathe an icy breath onto a squad member's weapon allowing
giving their normal attacks extra Water damage equal to
30% of your base magic attack. Lasts 15 minutes.
I'll leave it to some curious mathematician to figure out the equation to it. Get to work. b:bye●Wizard (Male) - Fasditious and pretentious, carries the arrogance of intellectual superiority. Feels the need to remind everyone of his world-ending power, but grows a little manic and unhinged when he finally is allowed to unleash it. "Ahh-hahahahaha!! NOW YOU ALL BURN!!!!"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »Thank you, Asterelle, for taking the time to prove my point: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=667182 When you look at damage figures, graphs and projections over an extended period of time, sometimes you just "know" without doing all the math and calculations... but they're so much fun, I'm glad to see them done. b:victoryb:victoryb:victory
And.... welcome back to the game
Bahh I'm not back -_- at least I never intend to be as active as before.
Reading that thread it looks like you were on the money. It's pretty funny how much trouble I went through to make a precise statistical measurement before I realized I could just use expel. The statistical approach was pretty accurate but swapping out equipment with expel made it easy to see what was happening.
The way it adds a fixed elemental damage reminds me of elemental shards in the weapon. Perhaps coders were lazy and copy-pasted the code without using the consistent weapon attack calculation.
I'm actually disappointed we're missing out on a good chunk of fire damage. Rings + level + ammo + attack charms are about 600 attack that's getting ignored by this buff... this does diminish the benefit of sage blazing over demon.Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »To save you time: They do. Frostblade merely adds water damage equivalent to my own base magic attack, so sparks will not amplify that damage.
Try testing something before being sure. Skill descriptions are known for being inaccurate. Due to the similarity I'd be surprised if the elemental blue glow on my left hand behaved any differently than the elemental red glow on my right. I'm leaving confirming this as an exercise for the reader, all it takes is an expel genie.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »When you expelled pet Quilue's armor, did her resistances come down too and was she fully susceptible to your magical advances? b:chuckle
I bet her Stormrage Eagleon was that much more effective.0 -
heh i kept trying to tick Ast's charm when she wasn't looking
and you ladies really need to act more civilized and keep your lecherous comments somewhere private so as to not shatter my innocence! b:sadElena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »The ideal way to test blazing arrow would be to have a bow that does a fixed amount of damage and shoot at a physical immune lvl 0 mob with 0 fire resistance and tons of HP. This bow does not exist and neither does the mob b:cry
List of CoA mobs
Post listing CoA mob immunities and map of locations0 -
Since a few patches ago the skill description for Sage Blazing Arrow states that it gives 50% add to damage; with a creamy sage-line under it that says that the Sage version increases damage to 50% (used to be that Sage version increases to 60%).
I still think and hope that it s just a typo, since sage wouldnt add anything if it s really true, but did anyone bother to test this yet?If you've been bad, Lord I bet you have
And you've not been hit by flying lead
You'd better close your eyes and bow your head
And wait for the ricochet.0 -
This is good stuf b:victory
Tnx for going through all this, and I aggree we can asume that poison fang and frostblade work in the same way.
And you can probably test the metal skils to, with a genie with metal imumity9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm not crazy... the 10th is singing the music of tetris0 -
Cavalieri - Sanctuary wrote: »Since a few patches ago the skill description for Sage Blazing Arrow states that it gives 50% add to damage; with a creamy sage-line under it that says that the Sage version increases damage to 50% (used to be that Sage version increases to 60%).
I still think and hope that it s just a typo, since sage wouldnt add anything if it s really true, but did anyone bother to test this yet?
I tested this. They borked the skill description-- it is still 60% of your weapon damage.5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver0 -
Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »This is good stuf b:victory
Tnx for going through all this, and I aggree we can asume that poison fang and frostblade work in the same way.
And you can probably test the metal skils to, with a genie with metal imumity
yes, it does.
30% of weapon damage is added. therefore, no weapon means no damage increase. And it does increase the damage of skills in both humanoid and tiger form.0 -
Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »I tested this. They borked the skill description-- it is still 60% of your weapon damage.
Thought so, but thanks for the tesing and confirmation. ^.^If you've been bad, Lord I bet you have
And you've not been hit by flying lead
You'd better close your eyes and bow your head
And wait for the ricochet.0 -
Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »Rhetorical question of the thread:
When you expelled pet Quilue's armor, did her resistances come down too and was she fully susceptible to your magical advances? b:chuckle
yesh...completely susceptible
b:shocked
darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
Waiting for...Hamster Packs!
58% chance to get tokens
41% chance to get an all class pet hamster....but they has already been freed by the magic hamster.
1% chance to get ban hamstered with the message "Hamsters United!"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
EronKillstar - Dreamweaver wrote: »yes, it does.
30% of weapon damage is added. therefore, no weapon means no damage increase. And it does increase the damage of skills in both humanoid and tiger form.
when im fisting my smexy demon archer friend i do more damage if i use frostblade.
Also, when we were in delta last night, i buffed the archers with frostblade. The water immune wave came and when they did barrage a ton of resists popped up.
So frostblade works for skills also.Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
I love Archer forums, always so interesting, Nice thread Asterelle<33EQuinox Demon Archer 5.0 ftw?0
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Astoru - Heavens Tear wrote: »You are partly correct though, the persons weapon damage plays a part into it. You won't see any level 1 BM's hitting 500 extra damage per hit.
I'll leave it to some curious mathematician to figure out the equation to it. Get to work. b:bye
I can confirm this as well . I always ask for frostblade ( and have been asked when I was a wiz ) and the dmg increase wasn't that high . Definitely not taken from a wiz's mag attack .
It's all about LoL,yo.0 -
Wow Ast, end game boredom? b:laugh
Nice info to know tho.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »For any archers that don't have a pet Quilue I highly recommend getting one as they make great target practice.
Pet Qui, I need to get one of those. Where did you tame yours? b:dirty
Great thing to know, thanks asty.Shandelzare - Sanctuary wrote: »Wow Ast, end game boredom? b:laugh.
Thats what I was thinking xD[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
BTW, How long did this whole thing take you? b:lipcurl[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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??? at -> "Fire Damage = (minimum attack of bow + maximum attack of bow) / 2 * Blazing Arrow Percent"
so im wearin my 61 mold xbow which has 465-1085 attack
465 + 1085 = 1550 /2 = 775*40 (40%rite?) = over 31k fire dmg? explain me that when my regular hit does 4k
no way that cant be rite... btw skill description says adds fire damage to regular arrows, also on bolts and units??
greez0 -
LastDance - Dreamweaver wrote: »??? at -> "Fire Damage = (minimum attack of bow + maximum attack of bow) / 2 * Blazing Arrow Percent"
so im wearin my 61 mold xbow which has 465-1085 attack
465 + 1085 = 1550 /2 = 775*40 (40%rite?) = over 31k fire dmg? explain me that when my regular hit does 4k
no way that cant be rite... btw skill description says adds fire damage to regular arrows, also on bolts and units??
greez
Because taking 40% is not the same as multiplying by 40 (which is effectively taking 4000%)
It's actually 775*.4 = 310 additional fire dmg to your hit. And yes, it also counts for any ammo. Fun fact, it counts for any physical weapon you equip. So fists will also work.Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
holy necro captain0
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SpazzMcAps - Harshlands wrote: »holy necro captain
Guides are allowed to be "necroed" as they still provide use to the community.
Confirmed by a mod.0 -
Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »Guides are allowed to be "necroed" as they still provide use to the community.
Confirmed by a mod.
still a necro, just a legal necro0 -
I'm really glad this was necroed, actually. I had all these questions about blazing arrow, and I still have questions about poison fang and frostblade.Ling__Tong 101 bm ~ PheosNyx 103 wiz ~ Arande 100 HArcher ~ xXxKuro 100 barb ~ AnselTyme 101 cleric ~ lukeFONfabre 96 seeker ~ Tori_Anzu 90 mystic ~ KateiiHimura 95 veno ~ Artemaeus 58 psy. Playing since April 2009.0
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