Attack Level and Defense Level Demystified
Comments
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SneakyStalk - Harshlands wrote: »errr, I DONT GET IT -.-
could someone de-elenacostel-it for me plz?
lol
I never even posted on this thread...0 -
Your name is now synonymous with mystify
thus to demystify means to de-elenacostelElena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Bump.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
SOMEONE De-Asterelle it then !!![SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Un4given0 -
So with the given data, provided it's accurate, we can assume that somewhere 10 < x < 36.3 the return on each +1 DEF becomes <1%? I'd love to look at some numbers where A=0 and D=15-30 but I don't have the means.
What I've gathered is:
1)The return on each successive +DEF lowers as DEF->inf. That's assuming the 0 attack and 10 defense calculation in the first post is inaccurate due to rounding as if it isn't 10 DEF provides more reduction per DEF than 5.5 DEF does.
2)There is a 'figurative' horizontal asymptote at y = a, where a could be 100.
3)No function satisfies the data as of yet but could possibly be pwi rounding at fault.
With the data it seems like the function would be some obscure logarithmic function so I'm happy with assuming it's pw's rounding. =/0 -
b:surrender0
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Invinsibility is stupid and PWI devs would have been total idiots if they made it possible
The original formulas proposed seem to ignore the fact that a psychic can reach above 100 def lvl and if they were correct.... Psychics would actually be recovering HP instead of losing any at that point.
Obviously the formula, if any, has to use the value "e" in there somewhere. I tried my best to crack it and couldn't. There simply isn't the means to do it where you can test with 1 atk lvl, 2 atk lvl,3 atk lvl, 4.... etc.. and the same with def lvls.
So for now all we can conclude is that as attack/defense levels get higher, they still affect damage dealt/taken but with a diminishing effect.0 -
I think this relates closely enough..
Theories on when def lvl and pdef/mdef reduction are taken into account?
(100% damage-def lvl reduction) * (1-pdef reduction)=damage taken
or..
100%-pdef reduction*(%)def lvl =damage taken ,<=quite sure its not this but asking
la la la on a further note the (TT) nirvana armor has +def % +mdef% these are i assume from the actual pdef numbers(which have diminishing returns) and not the reduction% ? And it would be +4% pdef from gear [so before buffs] (so cleric/bm buff probably wouldn't multiply on top of it...or?)
also anyone got a good theory/rule of thumb on def survivability vs hp survivability. i know hp survivability is limited by cleric heals/charm tick/ect but a good min hp goal/ or a good ratio?
Trying to figure what is most cost effective in getting more survivability...ow my brains.0 -
Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »I think this relates closely enough..
Theories on when def lvl and pdef/mdef reduction are taken into account?
(100% damage-def lvl reduction) * (1-pdef reduction)=damage taken
or..
100%-pdef reduction*(%)def lvl =damage taken ,<=quite sure its not this but asking
la la la on a further note the (TT) nirvana armor has +def % +mdef% these are i assume from the actual pdef numbers(which have diminishing returns) and not the reduction% ? And it would be +4% pdef from gear [so before buffs] (so cleric/bm buff probably wouldn't multiply on top of it...or?)
also anyone got a good theory/rule of thumb on def survivability vs hp survivability. i know hp survivability is limited by cleric heals/charm tick/ect but a good min hp goal/ or a good ratio?
Trying to figure what is most cost effective in getting more survivability...ow my brains.
I, myself, use HP shards... but I personally hate when you're trying to take down a person and you're hitting them for almost nothing even though their HP isn't that high.... however, since we're LA users, it's hard to decide whether to shard with garnets or sapphires because if you shard with one, you lack the other. Citrines are probably the best way to go with archers since we don't excell, yet don't really fail at either of the two defenses.0 -
grr not really what im lookin for here ill specify then
5.0 atk speed 65kDPS,demon, 10k+buffed hp 16 def lvl already, trying to tank the game pve wise, trying to figure if should +orn ref, +7-10 armor,vit stone, g15 nirvana and def+2 shard it something like this
http://www.pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=482eaa5ed1977bcd blank shards=+2 def lvl
lets say here some choices
+8 orn+3%pdef reduction->+4%more reduction -87mil
+10 orn+6% pdef red->+8% more-207mil
+8 g13/15 armor pieces+3.5% hp-57mil
+10 helm/boot-+14% hp-177mil
nirvana pant or wrist +3.5%survivablity(mixed hp/pdef)-130mil
nirvnaa pant+wrist+2def shards--360mil
nirv pant+wrist w/ vit stones- more hp less pdef-360mil
vit stone amor-+720hp/+9% hp -150mil
seems going +10 helm+boot then vit stoning armor is most added survivability, but HP survivability is encumbered by cleric heal power.so...b:beatupb:tired
sorry didn't wanna derail this thread into me, was just trying to figure out effectiveness of def shards vs hp vs pdef reduction0 -
I actually like vit stones since they raise HP and defense... every 10 vit gives roughly 1% more equipment defense. That makes a vit stone roughly equal to a Citrine Gem + Immac Garnet + Immac Sapphire in one. The higher HP regeneration is a nice bonus too.
As for survivability with HP and pdef..
damage taken % = 1 - pdef / (attacker level * 40 + pdef)
= attacker level * 40 / (attacker level * 40 + pdef)
Survivability = hp / damage taken %
Survivability = hp * ( 1 + pdef / (attacker level * 40))
I think you can add the pdef red% stat like this
Survivability = hp * ( 1 + pdef / (attacker level * 40)) / (1- pdef red%)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Refining Simulator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/refiningsimulator.html (don't use IE)
Genie Calculator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/geniecalculator.html - (don't use IE)
Socket Calculator - aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html0 -
Okies, i've read this whole thread, and i'm even more confused than before I read it. 0.o
So, where are we now at this? Does the effectiveness of defense level graph at an exponential decay? Cause thats what I got out of all this so far. Please correct me for I am probably wrong -.-On indefinite hiatus0 -
yah seems at higher numbers def lvl is fairly less effective,but not numbers that are easy to hit for non psychics
personally im not gonna bother with more defense shards, turns out can easily tank 3-3 so more HP seems the way to go0 -
Does Defense Level affect damage taken form DoTs? This would matter against a Phoenix, right?0
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from what ive seen yah it reduces damage taken from DoTs such as spearmans metal DoT0
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I still don't get it b:sad
this is me >.<
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=e23208a14b713d2d
should I get all def/attk lvl shards xD?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Un4given0 -
Bump. Shabby Ambers are getting comfortable in my warsoul helm.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
What I like about this explanation is the fact that is straight to-the-point.
It doesn't require a lengthy explanation to explain something mathematical like this.
So... Good job!b:byeList of my territory war videos:
ht tp://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=8734720 -
We have +30 atk lvl blessings now. I believe this is worthy of a bump.
EDIT: Just thwacked some Arboride Dryads (the trees in front of west gate). Hit 3322 with an attack level of 0, and 4319 with an attack level of 30.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
0.0 so much math.... i think i might have seen some gemometry in here too >_>
btw anyone ever tested the def lvl on a TT boss or any other [?] boss?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »We have +30 atk lvl blessings now. I believe this is worthy of a bump.
EDIT: Just thwacked some Arboride Dryads (the trees in front of west gate). Hit 3322 with an attack level of 0, and 4319 with an attack level of 30.
that is exactly 30%
actually 30% is 4318.6 so u got rounded up dont be madb:bye0 -
I know that >.>
Interesting to see what would happen when thwacking someone with 30 DEF though.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »I know that >.>
Interesting to see what would happen when thwacking someone with 30 DEF though.
Maybe you could ask a psychic?0 -
To do a good analisis, we need many experimental results and all this information in every test:
Character level of the attacker
Basis damage of the attacker. (If we have a range for the basis damage we need to say the minimal and the maximal)
Teorical damage, of the hit, skill or whatever the attacker is using to test, over zero physical defense and zero magical resistances. (In this part its necessary to say separately the quantity of physical damage, fire damage, water damage, earth damage, metal damage, wood damage of the hit, skill or whatever is being used to the test). (And must been considerated all the active amplifications of damage like the masteries). (If we have a range for the teorical damage, we need to say the minimal and the maximal)
+Attack Level of the attacker
Character level of the attacked
Physical Defense and Each one of the elemental resistances of the attacked
+Defense Level of the attacked
The average, the maximal and the minimal of at least 10 experimental measures of the damage done, with the hit or skill used for the test, with the above variables fixed. If it can be taken between 30 and 40 measures would be ideal.
NOTE: The less difference between the maximal and the minimal in the teorical damage, less important to do 40 measures.
NOTE: Tests with high attack or defense levels are the most useful.
NOTE: To see how to calculate the teorical damage, you can see this page:
http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Damage
I dont have way to do the test because, I dont have frenzy, I dont have blessing jones, neither I dont have a physic friend. But if someone do it, I could do a data analysis and try to find out a formula regarding all this information.0 -
I have a blessing jones now, and I ve done tests with mobs, and I have comprobed that regardless the level and all the characteristics of the mob, the only thing that do the +30 in attack level is increase the damage 30%.
So the correct formula only for the attack level is:
damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( atk lv / 100 ) )
I havent done tests with the defense lv. But I d like that the complete formula was:
damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( atk lv / 100 ) ) / ( 1 + ( def lv / 100 ) )
because it would be very logical; but we need to wait to the experiments to see how the defense level work.
NOTE: What I mean with damage deliver is the the damage that would do if the attack and defense level attributes werent exists, but it consider all the other deductions, like the defense deduction or the difference of the character level penalizations.0 -
I have a blessing jones now, and I ve done tests with mobs, and I have comprobed that regardless the level and all the characteristics of the mob, the only thing that do the +30 in attack level is increase the damage 30%.
So the correct formula only for the attack level is:
damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( atk lv / 100 ) )
I havent done tests with the defense lv. But I d like that the complete formula was:
damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( atk lv / 100 ) ) / ( 1 + ( def lv / 100 ) )
because it would be very logical; but we need to wait to the experiments to see how the defense level work.
... have you actually read this thread?
The +30atk level has already been discussed and so far it is postulated that at a certain threshold, it is no longer a linear increase.
And yes, +1atk level cancels +1def lvl.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »nm, I see what you did. Revising.
Ok, first I normalized all your damage figures to the 0 ATK, 0 DEF case. Then I sorted your two data sets (0 ATK and 20 ATK).ATT DEF DAM 0 0 1.000 0 5.5 0.943 0 36.3 0.697 0 41.8 0.670 0 66 0.557 0 76 0.523 20 0 1.200 20 5 1.150 20 36.3 0.839 20 41.8 0.799 20 76 0.598
Next, for the DEF values which were tested at both 0 and 20 ATK, I divided the two to find the ratio of normalized damage.DEF Ratio 0 1.20 5.5 1.22 (actually 5.5 and 5, which probably accounts for this being high) 36.3 1.20 41.8 1.19 76 1.14
That's not quite what I was hoping for. The slight drop at 41.8 and sharp drop at 76 DEF suggests a discontinuous function or some modifier for the ATK bonus which doesn't become significant until DEF > ~40, and really kicks in at DEF > 60.
For the 0-36.3 ATK range however, this does suggest the ATK factor is just DAM * (1 + ATK/100) * (whatever DEF does).
Was there anything else particularly different about the psychic you tested on? How are you accounting for level reduction in damage, or was the target always same or lower level than the attacker? And I would kill for a 20 ATK, 66 DEF data point so I can make another ratio and compare to the 76 DEF ratio.
Regarding this, without any other consideration of defense, character level, etc. A formula that adjust pretty well the datas are:
damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( atk lv / 100 ) ) / ( 1 + (1,2* def lv / 100 ) )
But regarding that atk lv cancel the def lv; the formula would have to be:
if (atk lv > def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( (atk lv - def lv) / 100 ) )
if (atk lv < def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + (1,2* (def lv - atk lv) / 100 ) )
These two last formulas fit even better to the datas.
But, I dont like any of this formulas. I dont like that the defense have more weight than the attack.0 -
Regarding this, without any other consideration of defense, character level, etc. A formula that adjust pretty well the datas are:
damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( atk lv / 100 ) ) / ( 1 + (1,2* def lv / 100 ) )
But regarding that atk lv cancel the def lv; the formula would have to be:
if (atk lv > def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( (atk lv - def lv) / 100 ) )
if (atk lv < def lv) then: damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + (1,2* (def lv - atk lv) / 100 ) )
But, I dont like any of this formulas. I dont like that the defense have more weight than the attack.
Where did the concluson of +def having a stronger weighting than +atk come from?0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »Where did the concluson of +def having a stronger weighting than +atk come from?
What this mean is:
If you have 100atk lv and your enemy have 0def lv, you will do the double of damage to him.
But if you have 0atk lv and you enemy have 100def lv, you wont do the half of damage (that it should be the case if the atk lv and def lv had the same weight).
You only going to do (1/2,2) of damage that means 45% of the damage instead 50% of the damage that is logical to me that you should do.
this formula involve that the defense level tend to be 20% overweight than the attack level, when we compare as above and both tend to infinitum.0 -
What this mean is:
If you have 100atk lv and your enemy have 0def lv, you will do the double of damage to him.
But if you have 0atk lv and you enemy have 100def lv, you wont do the half of damage (that it should be the case if the atk lv and def lv had the same weight).
You only going to do (1/2,2) of damage that means 45% of the damage instead 50% of the damage that is logical to me that you should do.
I really recommend you read the thread.
+100atk vs +0def level isn't double damage
+100def vs +0atk isn't half damage or what you're implying either
+1atk cancels +1def
It appears to be a function comprised of multiple stepwise functions. Go read the thread to find at what the threshold is where the function is no longer linear.0
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