Sage PvP wizards - Crown of Flame, Pitfall?

/Slash - Lost City
/Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
edited August 2010 in Wizard
Does anyone have much experience using these in PvP? One of the most important attributes in a fast PvP setting is damage-per-animation, equal to damage / (channel+cast time). I ran some numbers on my 92 wizard's expected dmg/anim output, using SAGE versions of the following skills, with 3% channel bonus:

pyrogram = 3921 / 2.3sec = 1738.9 dmg/anim
gush = 3844 / 2sec = 1951.4 dmg/anim
stone rain = 4771 / 3sec = 1616.1 dmg/anim

compare these to:

crown of flame = 4744 / 2sec = 2408.1 dmg/anim
phoenix = 4515 / 2sec = 2291.7 dmg/anim
pitfall = 4226 / 2sec = 2145.6 dmg/anim

Granted, Crown and Pitfall are partially damage over time, not burst damage, and Phoenix has a much more limited range, but the simple fact is that with these bottom 3 skills you spend less time casting, thanks to 1sec channel, 1sec cast on each, and get more overall damage. Using these skills early in a fight (to get the damage over time started) might not be a bad idea.

Any thoughts on this? I am aware that Crown (for instance) is not as spammable as Pyrogram due to longer cooldown, but the damage/animation argument is compelling enough for me to think it might be worth using. Anyone else agree?

side note: damage/anim is basically the same as DPS, damage-per-second, assuming you are constantly casting spells.
Post edited by /Slash - Lost City on

Comments

  • A_PoleDancer - Lost City
    A_PoleDancer - Lost City Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    sage pitfall is sexy in pvp<3333
  • Mizuoni - Dreamweaver
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,533 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    A_PoleDancer - Lost City wrote: »
    sage pitfall is sexy in pvp<3333

    wrong avatar D:
    Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
    Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
    ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
    Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
    So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze
  • _Surreal_ - Heavens Tear
    _Surreal_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,458 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    wrong avatar D:

    b:sweat A_PoleDancer?...really?b:chuckle
    TheEmpire

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Well with DoT skils, you have to take into account that, if the target dies before the full dmg is aplyed, part of the dmg is wasted, knocking the spels DPS down drasticly.
    Unles something is a massive high hp char, it should die in 15 secs though. This makes DoT's mostly only fully usefull on bosses.
    Though I find DoT's usefull as a charm ticker when your trying to burst through someone in the charm cooldown, as it deals dmg after the tick (so you basicly get an extra dmg skil, even if it's not so high dmg)
    9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm not crazy... the 10th is singing the music of tetris
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Mizou, wtf? PoleDancer....male?....
    http://www.sikhchic.com/cms/articles/photo1/a-shame-a.jpg
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • /Slash - Lost City
    /Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    So the consensus seems to be that they are genuinely good skills? I mean, assuming your target doesn't die before the damage over time ends...

    Crown + Pitfall + Pyro + Gush

    .. is better damage in shorter casting time than the standard

    Pyro + Gush + Pyro + Gush spam.

    That sounds like a pretty convincing argument to me. Why don't I see these skills used more frequently, at least in PvE against bosses, if not in PvP against higher HP targets? Especially for sage wizards, since Crown gets an additional 15% damage from the skillbook's bonus.
  • Mizuoni - Dreamweaver
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,533 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Mizou, wtf? PoleDancer....male?....
    http://www.sikhchic.com/cms/articles/photo1/a-shame-a.jpg

    its my poleblade BM alt im using when im bored. Amour said he <3's me b:laugh
    Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
    Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
    ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
    Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
    So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I've no idea how you've calculated the damage? Gush and pyrogram have 100% weapon modifier add (not a lot difference with high magic, but still something), so you can't compare like that since it depends on weapon I guess.
  • HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver
    HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver Posts: 574 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    /Slash - Lost City wrote: »
    So the consensus seems to be that they are genuinely good skills? I mean, assuming your target doesn't die before the damage over time ends...

    Crown + Pitfall + Pyro + Gush

    .. is better damage in shorter casting time than the standard

    Pyro + Gush + Pyro + Gush spam.

    That sounds like a pretty convincing argument to me. Why don't I see these skills used more frequently, at least in PvE against bosses, if not in PvP against higher HP targets? Especially for sage wizards, since Crown gets an additional 15% damage from the skillbook's bonus.

    Even if the dmg looks nice in the calculation there are 3 points why gush and pyro are prefered

    a lot of DoT dmg can be encountered by using pots or over time heal spells of course gush and pyro dmg is also reduced when a player uses pots but the remaining amount of dmg dealt is still higher before the heal effect encounters the effect so for letting charms tick those mini spikes are more likely to do the job

    another point would be that after sage job change pyro gets the chance for extra chi and the gush slow effect is also desired especially when facing melee classes like bm or barb
    i guess the side effects from pitfall are not predictable so gush > pitfall effectwise but thats a personal preference

    3 point was already mentioned by borsuc with high refines the weapon modifier boosts gush and pyro dmg while DoT dmg remains

    your argumentation is still nice if you talk about a non charmed fight + you have the time to get both DoTs off before the target reaches you

    greetz harm0wnie
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Demon pitfall would be somewhat useful, 33% chance to freeze for such a fast channeling+cast spell may prove interesting... when/if I ever get it. b:sad

    Sage Crown of Flame sounds a bit useful though. If 15% fire damage applies to base magic attack (i.e the instant damage received after casting it, not only the DoT), then with 500 mag, it would add 90% weapon damage (600% from base magic atk, *15% is 690%), so it would do damage close to Gush or Pyrogram in terms of weapon damage (not constant though).

    This is only speculation on my part, however. Seeing as I'm not sage nor even have it anyway someone else would have to test the 15% bonus (I hate fb99 drop rate and the fact no one sells the lvl89 skills that drop there either)
  • Mizuoni - Dreamweaver
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,533 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Demon pitfall would be somewhat useful, 33% chance to freeze for such a fast channeling+cast spell may prove interesting... when/if I ever get it. b:sad

    Sage Crown of Flame sounds a bit useful though. If 15% fire damage applies to base magic attack (i.e the instant damage received after casting it, not only the DoT), then with 500 mag, it would add 90% weapon damage (600% from base magic atk, *15% is 690%), so it would do damage close to Gush or Pyrogram in terms of weapon damage (not constant though).

    This is only speculation on my part, however. Seeing as I'm not sage nor even have it anyway someone else would have to test the 15% bonus (I hate fb99 drop rate and the fact no one sells the lvl89 skills that drop there either)

    demon pitfall is a wannabe hailstorm. And its only useful against barbs and stupid BMs....

    Sage pitfall hits about the same as my sage gush.
    Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
    Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
    ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
    Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
    So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze
  • Amour - Lost City
    Amour - Lost City Posts: 1,825 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Demon pitfall would be somewhat useful, 33% chance to freeze for such a fast channeling+cast spell may prove interesting... when/if I ever get it. b:sad

    Sage Crown of Flame sounds a bit useful though. If 15% fire damage applies to base magic attack (i.e the instant damage received after casting it, not only the DoT), then with 500 mag, it would add 90% weapon damage (600% from base magic atk, *15% is 690%), so it would do damage close to Gush or Pyrogram in terms of weapon damage (not constant though).

    This is only speculation on my part, however. Seeing as I'm not sage nor even have it anyway someone else would have to test the 15% bonus (I hate fb99 drop rate and the fact no one sells the lvl89 skills that drop there either)

    15% is only applied to DoT
    "Amour is better suited to rainbow text, because he is a classy lady." - Nakhimov
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HexOmega - Dreamweaver
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,342 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    uhmm dot on a dph class, and not even special adds




    you want to bypass the charm by lowering hp close to 50% then kick in something big D:
    soo you might tick with dot before you kill...

    hmmm... hmmm.. or the dot does the *hp-downing* while you kite.....hmm


    anyways crown of flame sucks, pitfall is ok



    more like *poke* skills


    ot
    have you ever tried to kill someone (uncharmed) with only undine strike spam D:?
    i like potato
  • PrettySammy - Sanctuary
    PrettySammy - Sanctuary Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    hmm ok so i have both these skills as Sage

    PvP wise Crown of Flames is useless outside of TW really, in TW its a fast cast skill to add magic type bleed to BM's barbs etc as they try to run past, can often get that essential charm tick so you can focus more on just shooting.

    In a sutra combo it can work too with D Pyro, Pyro, CoF, D/Pyro or BT (depends on chi / sparks) if your too far for will of the phoenix, the reason for all fire combo is if your using the genie skill SPARK and have 100 dex to shut down their fire def.

    Apart from these two instances, useless dont use it

    Pitfall is similiar but has some applications for slow / stop on targets + its seems to annoy the **** outta sins and archers. Damage is still mediocre at best wouldnt advise you using either is pvp often, well unless you want to die.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    I don't need no pdef, cos I got ... BOOM HEADSHOT !
  • Sirrobert - Dreamweaver
    Sirrobert - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,395 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I have pitfall lvl 10, use it in my all earth macro against frost bosses. Though I added sage pyrogram in that macro soon as I got it, for the extra chi b:chuckle
    9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm not crazy... the 10th is singing the music of tetris
  • fulgida
    fulgida Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    In my opinion, the best pvp use for sage DoT is to give your opponent a false sense of security.

    If you were fighting someone and saw that you were taking minor damage, you might be tempted to stay and fight instead of run away. And that DoT has some minor use in countering a health potion.

    Meanwhile, I would not worry about "wasted damage". Your last hit will always have "wasted damage". But you do need to be careful to avoid wasting opportunities -- unless you are trying for a poke, DoTs are probably not the best skill to be using in PvP.

    (When you are fighting bosses vulnerable to the element in PvE, they can indeed be one of the three best skills to use, so they can be worth having in your rotation. And if you have enough channelling gear you will need to be doing something with your time... But I think you were mostly asking about PvP?)

Categories