In Regards To Vitality...

IzumixTears - Heavens Tear · July 2010

*Note* I'm new to the forums. Please forgive me if the format is sloppy.

Hi all! I've decided to go with a Vit-Mage build for my Venomancer. (This is 3 Vit/ 1 Str/ 6 MAG every 2 levels.) It's working out as of now. I've been wondering however, if there is a certain point at which I should stop putting points in to Vitality and dump the rest in to MAG. Don't get me wrong, the extra survivability is nice and all, I just don't want to put too many points in to Vit only to find out later that it's not needed. :P Any and all advice is welcome and appreciated.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. b:thanks

~Izumi

MANray_ - Sanctuary · July 2010

That is completely up to you and your playing style. If you're concerned about adding too much vit i would recommend going 1str 9 mag for a while and see how that feels. Full vit is a compromise in which you'll trade a large part of your damage for better survivability, and while certainly a viable build, it is geared towards building a larger hp base. Many venos, like myself, choose to try a more balanced approach (i use 8mag 1vit 1str) and in a PvE server mag does tend to be more useful as it will allow faster leveling.

This doesn't mean vit to be useless or a waste of attribute points.
--Sprays anti-troll formula--

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

There are various options. You can stop at 50 vit or at 60 vit or even at 100. Whatever suits but you should keep in mind that at higher levels (lvl70+) you start having armour with shards and/or refines that will give you much more HP than Vit points alone.

Personally I stopped at 50 vit and my equipment gives me about 1400 HP at the moment which is more than what 50 more vit (to make it 100) could give me . So I'd say to decide what your base vit will be and afterwards focus on your armour b:victory (in terms of HP)

IzumixTears - Heavens Tear · July 2010

Thank you for the quick replies. I'll begin thinking about how much vit I find is necessary and then go from there. b:pleased

~Pleased Newbie Veno <--- New Nickname? b:chuckle

P.S. If anyone else would like to post there thoughts on this, I highly encourage it. I'm eager to learn! ^^ (Not only from research, which I've done some of.)

Waterfal - Sanctuary · July 2010

at lower lvls vit/mag wont be much in your way. At later lvls though as Desdi pointed out you will wear gear with shards and refines which pushes your hp up.
While you can upper your hp trough every piece or armour and even trough your weapon, you can only upper your magic attack trough your weapon (only about shards now and not +mag (attack) gear) and putting stats into mag.

At higher lvls you will notice killing is getting slower and slower and in my case vit got in my way. (I had a base of 75 vit)
I restatted 50 of it now to start with and I already notice quite a difference. While 50 vit gave me roughly about 400 hp. putting those 50 points into mag it added about 1k magic attack. Imo putting in vit isn't really worth it. seeing the difference in damage.

IzumixTears - Heavens Tear · July 2010

Well, one main reason I wanted to put some Vitality in my Venomancer is just in case I end up stealing aggro from my pet and I'm not quick enough to react and get hit. This way, I won't die as quickly and I can get my pet to take the aggro back while using a potion or two to catch up my health. Putting a cap on my viatality seemed like a good idea so as not to steal completely from my damage output. ^^ Thank you so much everyone. I feel...enlightened(?)...I guess? Your information really helped. ^^

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

Indeed higher magic will make you steal aggro from your pet more often (especially if it's one with low attack) but that's in the veno life b:chuckle
You can prevent aggro stealing by upgrading/teaching your pet Bash, adding Roar to it's skills (if you have space/ don't take out a useful skill) and simply by letting your pet attack first or wait a couple of seconds between every new attack b:victory
You'll eventualy have to learn how to control your aggro, your pet and how to react quickly. That will come to you naturally as you play more and more and gain the experience and try out things. Get your veno to her limits >:D

IzumixTears - Heavens Tear · July 2010

Learn through practicing...err mistakes? b:pleased I have pulling down, which is good (or so I think). However, would it be possible for you to go more in depth on controlling aggro? I would imagine it's something similar to letting the pet doing most of the damage while you heal it, am I wrong? I've also read that healing can steal aggro...which can be scary. :P

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear · July 2010

heal aggro is something you'll get used to, especially when another mob decides to start whaling on your pet of its own accord. the trick is making sure every mob in the fight gets actually hit by something, at least once in a while; healing your pet builds aggro in whatever is attacking that pet, but not nearly as much as actually getting hit by the pet would.

(this is why i often pull mobs even on the open map, not just in instances. i don't want to wander around looking for single mobs, that takes too long. i'll just send my pet in to attack something, and if the rest of that mob's group of "friends" aggro on it, i pull instead of fighting the whole gang. but everybody slips up sometimes, and i still do get heal aggro occasionally --- just need to retarget and send the pet in after the second mob, get aggro back.)

Silest - Sanctuary · July 2010

Got..22 base vit ^^;. Don't wont anymore.

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

Don't worry too much about stealing aggro with Heal Pet...it isn't THAT scary b:laugh

By controlling aggro I don't really mean letting the pet do all the damage. You can wait a few seconds after you send your pet.
This will let the pet generate more aggro/hate. If you attack at the same time as the pet you have big chances of turning the hate against you.
Spamming your attacks will also cause aggro stealing. It's a bit annoying for me that I have to wait 2-3 seconds between every new attack but if I see the mobs are too dangerous for me and I steal aggro too much I have no other choice b:chuckle There's nothing too complicated, really.
In the case you do an awesome critical hit (even if you have 1%) and steal aggro from your pet....there's no way to fix that xD

Also don't use Bramble Guard on yourself. That buff reflects damage and generates some aggro. It will make it harder for your pet to get aggro back. This should be casted on Barbarians/Blademasters/Assasins who do melee damage. I cast it on myself only when I'm helping in a lower level FB or BH and I'm the tank. In that case I don't mind pulling aggro on me if that means to save someone.

Pet attack and skills matter too.
-Bash is the best aggro-keeping skill also it has a short cooldown so you can have your pet spam it.
-Flesh Ream genrates more aggro over time (as claimed by others) but it has a longer cooldown which is a drawback. It's not a bad idea to have the skill though. If the pet comes with this skill and have no reason to remove (eg. to put a better skill). Let it there and use it
-Roar works like the Barbarian skill. It doesn't do any damage, it just resets aggro. I have it on my shaodu cub for testing. I usually start with it then spam Bash. If I still steal aggro I use Roar again and 99% of the time the pet manages to get the aggro back even from bosses.
-Elemental Bash (such is Fireball, Icecle etc.) they seem to work like Bash but I' not sure if it really works like Bash. I still have to test that with my pet. Someone might know better.

Heal Pet may indeed make you steal aggro but not always:
-If you are fighting a mob and suddenly another one pops up and attacks your pet. That moment if you heal your pet you will definitely steal aggro. Make the pet attack the new mob quickly and then heal.
-If you are doing AOE (Area of Effect, Later you get two skills (lvl39 and lvl 59) that can hit multiple mobs at once) you should make sure your pet has hit at least once every mob before casting your AOEs or Heal it. Before doing AOE you should know the abilities and strenghts of your pet of course. You have to make sure the pet can stand x amount of mobs for a few seconds without being healed.

You won't steal aggro with Heal pet if:
-Your pet is attacking and you are just healing it (common thing to do when killing a boss/elite).
-If your pet has made a few attacks or used roar on the mob but then you command it to stop. It stops attack and it follows you. If you keep healing the pet that moment you won't steal aggro. (Usually seen when fighting a boss, you start attacking then you suddenly realise your squad mate is not around and you have to delay the death of the boss).
-If you are AOE grinding but something went wrong and there are too many mobs on your pet. If your pet manages to attack/get aggro from every mob that attacks it you won't steal aggro with pet healing. However, you need to have your pet switch targets often otherwise you might indeed heal aggro.

I hope you can understand. I'm not really good with explaining. If you have further questions or feel that this is not enough feel free to ask b:victory

IzumixTears - Heavens Tear · July 2010

*Reads through multiple times while taking notes* Wow, this is great! ^^ I'll be sure to put all of this to use. Thank you so much! As for Roar and Bash/Elemental Bash: Is it necessary to have both? I mean, if the pet loses aggro couldn't you just bash it again, thus regaining the aggro? As for the rest of your post, I completely understand. you did a great job explaining, I really appreciate it. ^^ I'll be sure to make all you Venos' proud...hopefully? b:laugh

As a side note: I think I'll cap vit at 40.

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver · July 2010

IzumixTears - Heavens Tear wrote: »

*Reads through multiple times while taking notes* Wow, this is great! ^^ I'll be sure to put all of this to use. Thank you so much! As for Roar and Bash/Elemental Bash: Is it necessary to have both? I mean, if the pet loses aggro couldn't you just bash it again, thus regaining the aggro? As for the rest of your post, I completely understand. you did a great job explaining, I really appreciate it. ^^ I'll be sure to make all you Venos' proud...hopefully? b:laugh

As a side note: I think I'll cap vit at 40.

Not necessarily. Roar I believe totally resets the aggro and is much safer to use when you want your pet to grab aggro back. If you stole aggro and your pet bashes again, if you did a lot of damage to the monster, your pet, even if it bashed, may not be able to get aggro back unless it bashes again or whatever. That being said, Roar totally resets it, so you pet can immediately follow up with a bash for recovery.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear · July 2010

it's not necessary to have both roar and bash (or, really, roar and any damage-dealing skill) but it can be handy. doing damage to a mob adds to whatever aggro total that mob has for your pet, and the addition can end up --- often does --- tilting the balance of aggro over to your pet.

as Lythianaa said, the advantage of roar is that it absolutely will shift that balance over to whoever or whatever roared on the mob, and do so immediately, no buts about it. the disadvantage is that roar sets the aggro balance only just barely in favor of the roarer --- one slip immediately after a roar, anything at all to generate aggro on yourself, and you've got it back. roar should be followed by the pet dealing damage, to add up the grand total of aggro balance higher and gain a safety margin.

LinneaSage - Raging Tide · July 2010

It's really just personal preference, but like others have said, a full mag build would probably steal aggro from pets more often than a vit hybrid build (though not so much if you know how to space out your attacks).

I stopped adding vit at somewhere between 30-40, and at level 63, I have around...2.2k (i think? haven't been on my veno in a while b:surrender) unbuffed health, without yet focusing on sharding (saving that for later levels). It's perfectly fine for grinding, since as long as I make sure to keep my aggro under control, I don't steal it very often, and when I do, I just stop attacking, let my pet hit it a few times, Second Wind as needed, and it's over with

. The vit I did put into my veno keeps me from getting twoshotted by normal mobs b:victory .

I might end up adding more vit later on if I feel I need it--at lower levels, I could get twoshotted by some of the AoE bosses if I wasn't careful. It was not fun b:sad . Really though, just try a little vit, or none, and see how it feels for you. As other people said, it's very possible to make up for the lack of health later on with shards and refines, but it's noticably harder to gain lost mag attack.

Myalt - Raging Tide · July 2010

I capped my vit at 50, and I have another 42 thanks to my tome and gear (92 vit total). I'm happy with it. (: I think all Venos should have around 80 vit but that's just me... Many people prefer the pure mag build.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · July 2010

Wow, that stuff really did work wonders...

While i'll admit is a personal choice to make for every veno, i always Bramble myself when doing squad work in case i need to protect the cleric or other squishys. Although an arcane myself i don't consider my char to be in that category given all of a veno's survival skills. Also, even with maxed Bramble and using my Shaodu Cub (a low damage pet) i've never had any trouble getting my pet to take aggro off me.

I think the key to handling aggro with multiple mobs really lies in not hitting the mob before your pet gets a hit in. Healing is situational, once in a while (this happens to me often when dealing with multiple respawns on PQ) i'll just take a couple of hits in the knowledge my pet will take aggro before things get dangerous, having a pet down is always a more disastrous scenario and you can always get your hp back using Leech. What i'm trying to say is you eventually develop a good instinct about how to handle different scenarios and get a good idea of what works and what doesn't. BTW hitting Noxious as often as you can with only your non-herc pet tanking more than three mobs is usually not a good idea. b:surrender

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

BTW hitting Noxious as often as you can with only your non-herc pet tanking more than three mobs is usually not a good idea. b:surrender

This is true XD
I still do it though. I steal aggro. I have to run around or stay there and fight the mob if I know he won't 3shot me or something. I love AOE grinding b:laugh

Brambling yourself for that reason sounds fair. I have thought of that myself but I always prefer leaving that for my pet. As long as we protect the cleric anything is fine! b:chuckle

Silvia_Xenth - Lost City · July 2010

3 base vit in foxform so plz dont give me the **** we all are caster cos that bull sht i for one have 0 caster magic purely go fox and me loves it b:victory bramble in fox buahahah.

kenlee · July 2010

Silvia_Xenth - Lost City wrote: »

3 base vit in foxform so plz dont give me the **** we all are caster cos that bull sht i for one have 0 caster magic purely go fox and me loves it b:victory bramble in fox buahahah.

i didnt understood a thing... maybe just the part that you have 3 vit in fox form and i guess you have more in human form!?

tweakz · July 2010

Lets make this real simple:

Venos get much less HP per vit than BMS and Barbs. However we get the same from Citrines, and AA refines are unaffected by class. We have much lower operating costs so therefore can afford to refine / imbue better.

We have many advantages of using defense over HP (or vit). HP recovery via genie, and pots are cheaper for this strategy (second wind vs top and small pots vs large pots). Fox Form multiplies on Pdef, not HP. Leech brings in a fixed amount of HP (higher percent for a higher def to hp ratio).

Mag doesn't just give us more matk, but more mdef, mp, mp recov. Our matk is compounded by -ch, crit, frenzy, heaven's flame, amp, extreme poison, etc makign matk very valuable on it's own. We get relatively little reward from vit. HP can be gained many ways such as equipment refines, citrine imbues, and swap ornaments. Matk, max mp, mdef, mp recov, are not so easy to compensate for.

If you like being able to take repeated hits while spacing out: consider the HA route?

Quibie - Heavens Tear · July 2010

Silvia_Xenth - Lost City wrote: »

3 base vit in foxform so plz dont give me the **** we all are caster cos that bull sht i for one have 0 caster magic purely go fox and me loves it b:victory bramble in fox buahahah.

3 bas vit in foxform = My base vit in foxform is 3

so plz dont give me the **** we all are caster= so please dont give me the **** that we are all casters

cos that bullsht= cause thats bull sh*t

i for one have 0 caster magic purely go fox and me loves it= I for one have 0 caster magic and went purely foxform and i love it b:victory bramble in fox form

All together now b:pleased

My base vit in foxform is 3..so please dont give me the **** that we are all casters, cause thats bull****. I for one have no caster magic and I went purely foxform and I LOVE IT!! b:victory bramble in foxform buahahah

tweakz · July 2010

Say it again, one more time please! b:laugh

MANray_ - Sanctuary · July 2010

This was never about putting fox builds down. I do believe any veno build should be trying to take advantage of both skill trees regardless of their build's strenghts.

@Quilbie; because of your br i can't tell if you're being serious or trolling.

@Tweakz; You do make a sound case for not statting vit but at the end of the day it remains the cheapest way to take an extra hit or two, and this does seem like an acceptable tradeoff to many of us. While leveling investing heavily on gear seems something of an unncessary burden while endgame PvE is sufficiently lacking that allowing for PvP considerations doesn't seem too much of a bad idea.

tweakz · July 2010

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

This was never about putting fox builds down. I do believe any veno build should be trying to take advantage of both skill trees regardless of their build's strenghts.

Both trees are for the mag veno. Straight up melee is for the melee veno.

@Tweakz; You do make a sound case for not statting vit but at the end of the day it remains the cheapest way to take an extra hit or two, and this does seem like an acceptable tradeoff to many of us.

Please say it again: "cheap". When Clerics don't have even level 1 res, when Barbs and bms don't have lvl 1 buffs, when wiz's and archers can't out dd the tanks: lets all praise "cheap". Fair is fair, and if we can be cheap: why not those other classes with higher expenses? After all, their costs are largely related to our ability / performance. If we're cheap, it costs them more than us. Venos should be one of the most coveted classes, yet we're despised probably because some want to be "cheap".

For the frequency of having to take an extra hit or two in PvE, I highly doubt the tradeoff is worth it. Going from ~4 hits per kill to ~3 hits per kill is +~25% rate of gain. In PvP it's a matter of killing before being killed. I personally like being able to kill while they're still stunned by Lucky Scarab. If BM/ Barb stated the same amount of vit: they have the advantage. The Barb also has an attack which considers HP for it's dmg. -Talk about a major difference in the value of vit for Barbs vs Venos! We aren't barbs and BMs, so why are we trying to stat like them? =s I'll tell you my way of being cheap: killing ~25% faster or more which pays for the better equips which end up paying for themselves. Putting stat points in vit is for those who waste their coin and time on Crazy Stone, World Quest, Cube (before 90), exp stones, oracles, etc. It's a moocher thing to do since it relies on other's more than oneself.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · July 2010

@Tweakz; I do agree a larger part of the veno field underperforms. Five times out of six i'm in a squad in which there's a second veno. Nine times out of ten i'm the only one amping... The thing is there are many small subtleties to the veno's work. Ironwood is just not good damage but helps the melees, a pet with Howl usually comes in handy... Yes, a veno should also be a good DD and i keep my skills maxed for this very purpose, have the best wep and rings i can afford and as much -chan +mag and +mag attack in my gear as i've been able to get my hands on.

But survivability is also an important part of squad work, and if i can look after myself through AoE i'm helping the squad by helping the cleric. I never say no to guard or escort duties and sometimes this means taking some hits. Unlike many of the people who post in forums i don't claim to play by an exacting standard. I'm usually squading PUGs which means i mostly never know what the capabilities of the people i squad with are. I know pure mag would not work best for me because 200-300 hp have often meant the difference in avoiding a full party wipe. Now, i do consider myself a competent veno (not top tier elite, just good) but the truth is one way or the other i do end up taking a lot of hits and i must admit every once in a while i do make mistakes. What little vit i have has many times over benefited both me and the squads i work with, personally yea, i can see someone going pure mag and becoming a great asset to their squads but i do like some room for mistakes and in my case i do believe it to have been the better choice. Then again, i've squaded with full vit venos which certainly were skilled and competent. Everyone chooses what works best for them, and if a veno will take out any ads or patrols that may come the squad's way while working on a group of mobs, perform pulling/debuffing duties flawlessly and guarantee there'll be someone making a stand before the cleric gets hit then so be it, i'll take the extra 15-20 secs it may take to put down a boss.

I go 8 mag and do plan to (endgame) get the nominal (no gear bonuses) mag a pure build gets, just as i plan on getting the nominal hp a full vit build would have (that's a full 150 stat points to make up for at level 100) which i'm well aware may take me well over a couple of years to accomplish if i ever get there. Not planning on being the top veno on my server, just a solid and reliable one. A balanced build is IMO a viable choice

XylolyX - Heavens Tear · July 2010

While there are a great deal of good points being discussed, I have to agree with tweakz; putting points into vitality doesn't really have good returns. (Yeah I know, my veno's only a 4X...) Killing mobs faster helps speed up the grinding process, and I'm usually attacking the next mob while pet is finishing off the first.

@MANray; I too have seen a great lack of venos performing debuffs... I was in a squad with 2 venos and had to ask them to amp damage on boss...and these are 9X venos. It's nice to see that I'm not the only one that notices these things.

When I play my veno I consider myself a DD/Support and part of that DD role is to cast debuffs and such on the bosses.

btw I capped my vit at 20...I don't see any need for more.

tweakz · July 2010

Oh I notice. No amp, no ironwood (which can be good if Barb, Cleric or BM is doing the pdef debuff), but usually it's total ignorance or laziness.

The other day after I SD and Amp I notice the other veno do it right after. I ask if they have sage of both and the reply is yes. I reply that I'll let her do them then. She replies, "no u do it". So I do them while someone else has aggro, then take aggro after. Did this on 4 more bosses, and you'd think that veno would realize it'd be more efficient and easier on the cleric to have her doing the debuffing. Oh well, some of the bosses were dead before I needed healing anyway (fb59).

MANray_ - Sanctuary · July 2010

Precisely, many people don't really care about adjusting to work better with others. It's not like is hard to mouse over debuffs and see who's doing what... But then when your average veno only switches between throwing scarabs and playing pet cleric, there really isn't much you can do. To me the best example is venos that don't think of healing another veno's herc when tanking or, worse yet, herc'ed venos that somehow resent your healing their pet. It's better for the herc'ed veno to take care of amping/nuking since he/she can better make the call to throw in an extra heal when needed where the unherc'ed veno would need to be switching targets. Now, it may not seem like much of an advantage but it can be in dangerous scenarios. It comes down to acomplishing a squad's common goal in the fastest, safest way...

In Regards To Vitality...

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