LA Venos

blizzypol · July 2010

I don't understand why ppl on PWI (I am playing on MS) are hating LA venos so much (at least I think so - assuming on many threads posted here). I see everywhere the same "HA > LA noob omg wtf". I am Veno lvl 93, LA build, 100% caster. My goal is to get something like that on lvl 99 http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c4cb1c7932d37b77 (Note that there is obvious difference between PWI and MS), and I would really like to know why it "sux" so hard. Also, I would be grateful if you could post something more than just flame here. Thanks.

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver · July 2010

Do you play in foxform often as well?

I think people get all huffy puffy about LA venos as being the weakest because they are not strong in either physical or magical defenses. People would rather restat to a HA veno and hybrid with AA whenever the situation calls for it. Thus, LA's are seen as venos with lower hp, lower def, unless of course they can afford the good gear and refines and shards. But I have friends that are LA and are doing just fine. I have no hatred or w/e for the LA veno community. It's just how you choose to play your own character.

Vixter - Harshlands · July 2010

@OP - im from pw-my and also LA WF there and have started here also as LA again. **** everyone else who say LA is fail xD i love LA, and to me theres nothing wrong with it. sure you cant get up to 9k defense in magical with robe, or like 6-7k with heavy, but no LA defenses DO NOT SUCK, they ARE lower in both but can still survive in pve and pvp. i can AOE mobs perfectly fine that most robe users could not do. I can tank bosses, and can do pretty well in pvp too. ive had a lot of people say to me "wow your really hard to kill" (of course, people around my lvl, since people that are like... high 90s, im easy to kill then xD)

some LA builds may suck, maybe choose casting which would probably have magical adorns... or maybe missing out on health due to robe helmets or only 2 socket armors. you can get up to 6-7k health without buffs even with refines at say, +4, and im not talking about with godly random stuff made up character on pwcalc site, im talking about like normal everyday TT90 gear and some even purple 2-3 star p.def adorns with extra health.

i dont think robe sucks, and i dont think heavy sucks. i hate when people say "LA sucks past 90" maybe to them it does, IF they even tried it. when you get to 90, it gets so much better .... HP bonues from the green TT90 help a lot (and same with any other green TT90 though).

I guess its just traditional for most to go robe, and others are just a little bizzare. heavy is cool, and probably best for pvp, thats why its usually the 2nd choice over all armors, but LA is kinda like robe in a way, you dont need to have special gear to wear it, your stats alone are good enough. and you have a choise in other gears you want to wear (weapon, adorns) just the defenses are different.

tweakz · July 2010

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Do you play in foxform often as well?

I think people get all huffy puffy about LA venos as being the weakest because they are not strong in either physical or magical defenses.

Maybe we just tired of people trying to justify it and never delivering.

Thus, LA's are seen as venos with lower hp, lower def, unless of course they can afford the good gear and refines and shards.

They're still gonna be lower than they could've been with the same coin / effort.

But I have friends that are LA and are doing just fine.

Venos without Hercs do just fine according to them also. Is it about being able to make it work, or whether it's worth it? Anyone can throw coin at a fail build and say they do just fine.

You already know if you post a thread here promoting LA that you're going to get negativity, and I'd say it's deserved if you can't show it as worthwhile.

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver · July 2010

I'm just stating an opinion of mine, that is probably seen from others that I'm promoting LA. Doesn't really matter, but I'm just saying that the character's build and everything is up to the player. I'm not really necessarily promoting it. Just trying to provide ups and downs. If I was not clear about it, then I probably made that mistake. That is all. If you want to shoot me down or whatever, you're more than welcome to.

KanariaRose - Archosaur · July 2010

I've never gotten why people dislike them so much, they are a perfectly usable build. I do TT with a LA veno from time to time on my cleric, and i barley have to pay her any notice. Everyone says that it makes you week in both physical def and magic, i always thought of it as it makes you moderate in both instead of insanely weak in one. *shtug* i shouldn't really talk though, my veno is pure XD

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

Don't forget the nice critical hit bonus you get as you need to add a lot of dex b:victory

Every build will work when done and played correctly. I have a Light Armour Venomancer myself and a semi-hybrid Arcane Armour. With the Arcane one I mostly play in the caster form but I haven't neglected the Fox Skill Tree at all (maxed amplified, purge, decent level of leech, even got Myriad Rainbow fox b:victory). With the Light Armour one I play mostly in fox form (I also love dueling with her) but I didn't neglect her Caster Tree Skill (well I did a bit since I was out of money/spirit b:chuckle).

Although my LA armour is not very complete as my second venomancer is quite broke at the moment and I lack some shards I am able to take hits and do great. I'm currently having BH51s and I like rushing in along with the barbrian. I even steal aggro and if things just seem to get tight I use Soul Transfusion. Yesterday, while killing Rankar, I went to get the runners but one of them was sacrificial assault so my kowlin was totally squashed. I had no other choice and attacked the mobs myself (I didn't want to take out another pet and lose time). I survived perfectly (though an archer came to help me after a few seconds). That if you wanted an example.

I was thinking of going HA as well after lvl 80-90 because it sounded challenging but I'm probably not going to reach that level so I'll stay LA.

Do it right and you'll be great, not matter the build. Let the others say whatever they want. They are not playing your characters therefore they have no right to judge whether you are good or not.

Desiree - Harshlands · July 2010

blizzypol wrote: »

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c4cb1c7932d37b77

Allow me to demonstrate the statistical reason of why people choose AA or HA over LA.

LA: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c4cb1c7932d37b77
HP: 7005 // Pdef: 4215 // Mdef: 5208 // Crit: 21% // Chan: -6% // Matk: 5993-7403

^ For comparison.

AA: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=74e80832a1b77f97
HP: 7355 // Pdef: 4212 // Mdef: 8113 // Crit: 13% // Chan: -9% // Matk: 5993-7403

AA uses HH90 4 socket pants instead of HH99 3 socket pants as the arcane 90 pants are better than 99 pants and the cost of 99 pants easily covers the 4-socketing price. AA has a much higher HP pool, the same amount of base pdef but far more mdef. The actual physical damage reduction is actually higher due to the extra 2% reduction from the sleeves and 3% from the hat. 8% more crit rate? I'd rather go for survivability than crit. If you cared for damage, you can restat the above to pure magic with 8354-10320 matk. LA doesn't give you that freedom.

HA: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=0d3e36712d2ffa7f
HP: 7422 // Pdef: 6923 // Mdef: 4362 // Crit: 18% // Chan: -0% // Matk: 5552-6864

HA requires careful building to ensure you have enough stat points to both wear your gear as well as your weapon. For stat points sake, HH90 gold cape is a must. Two CoA rings (the equivalent of the cost of that lunar ring) is also used for stat bonuses. The sole purpose of stating HA is for survivability and survivability only. At higher refines (i.e. +6 or higher), HA gear gives much more HP per refine than AA and LA, so a veno with highly refined HA gear will have far more HP than even a pure vit build AA. The sacrifice would be stats placed into mag, so a HA veno will often either have very low matk or not be able to wear a weapon of their lvl. In this case, however, while the HA veno has 400 less matk than AA or LA, it still has 400 more HP, 2.7k more pdef, and 900 less mdef. If you extrapolate to all +10 refines, you will notice that HA venos will have far, far more HP, pdef AND mdef than LA venos can. Venos are usually assumed to be arcane armour so the majority of attacks that you will receive from strangers who may attack you will be physical in nature. Going HA also properly opens up the foxform tree if you really wish to PvE in foxform (I would highly recommend against PvP in foxform, but feel free to experiment).

Ideally, I can make and show you far, far more optimized builds for both AA and HA for attack or tanking purposes, but the above two builds are in direct comparison to your posted LA build and are clearly statistically superior. Regardless of your playstyle, stats are stats, and above 90, both HA and AA will always beat LA in terms of stats. That's why LA "sucks" and everyone recommends HA or AA.

~Desiree

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

Thank you for posting all that. It really is helpful!

I knew myself LA is inferior at endgame but not all venomancers get there and not all venomancers have enough money or time to get those cool armour.
Comparing LA, AA and HA throughout the whole game anything can work well in my opinion.

blizzypol · July 2010

Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »

Allow me to demonstrate the statistical reason of why people choose AA or HA over LA.

LA: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c4cb1c7932d37b77
HP: 7005 // Pdef: 4215 // Mdef: 5208 // Crit: 21% // Chan: -6% // Matk: 5993-7403

^ For comparison.

Yeah, you were the person I wanted to hear. ^^

AA: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=74e80832a1b77f97
HP: 7355 // Pdef: 4212 // Mdef: 8113 // Crit: 13% // Chan: -9% // Matk: 5993-7403

AA uses HH90 4 socket pants instead of HH99 3 socket pants as the arcane 90 pants are better than 99 pants and the cost of 99 pants easily covers the 4-socketing price. AA has a much higher HP pool, the same amount of base pdef but far more mdef. The actual physical damage reduction is actually higher due to the extra 2% reduction from the sleeves and 3% from the hat. 8% more crit rate? I'd rather go for survivability than crit.

You get 2% pdef from LA wrists too. Could you explain why TT90 is better than TT99?

OK I agree that con-AA is pretty good. But I noticed it is hated here as well lol. And yeah the build you posted is nice too. I will have to think about that...

If you cared for damage, you can restat the above to pure magic with 8354-10320 matk. LA doesn't give you that freedom.

No I want to PvP. What's the point of playing MMO to PvE I will never get it. And pure int dies from literally everything.

HA: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=0d3e36712d2ffa7f
HP: 7422 // Pdef: 6923 // Mdef: 4362 // Crit: 18% // Chan: -0% // Matk: 5552-6864

HA requires careful building to ensure you have enough stat points to both wear your gear as well as your weapon. For stat points sake, HH90 gold cape is a must. Two CoA rings (the equivalent of the cost of that lunar ring) is also used for stat bonuses. The sole purpose of stating HA is for survivability and survivability only. At higher refines (i.e. +6 or higher), HA gear gives much more HP per refine than AA and LA, so a veno with highly refined HA gear will have far more HP than even a pure vit build AA. The sacrifice would be stats placed into mag, so a HA veno will often either have very low matk or not be able to wear a weapon of their lvl. In this case, however, while the HA veno has 400 less matk than AA or LA, it still has 400 more HP, 2.7k more pdef, and 900 less mdef. If you extrapolate to all +10 refines, you will notice that HA venos will have far, far more HP, pdef AND mdef than LA venos can. Venos are usually assumed to be arcane armour so the majority of attacks that you will receive from strangers who may attack you will be physical in nature.

First of all, as I have stated it is not PWI. The highest refined armour on whole server atm is +8. Also there are only 3 CoA rings on whole server.

You used the g14 boots that simply doesn't exist here (because we actually have to farm them instead of getting them from the packs). After equipping g13 boots actual differences are 362 hp and 11% physical def more for 574 magic attack, 5% magic def and 3% (4% is you equip second 3% crit ring on LA) crit (Also note that build you posted isn't possible pre-lvl 100). Also we don't have phoenixes with all the best rare skills learned already, so you deal lower damage for surviving more pdmg attacks. Is it really worth it?

Going HA also properly opens up the foxform tree if you really wish to PvE in foxform (I would highly recommend against PvP in foxform, but feel free to experiment).

I don't use anything other than debuff and amplify in PvP.

Ideally, I can make and show you far, far more optimized builds for both AA and HA for attack or tanking purposes, but the above two builds are in direct comparison to your posted LA build and are clearly statistically superior. Regardless of your playstyle, stats are stats, and above 90, both HA and AA will always beat LA in terms of stats. That's why LA "sucks" and everyone recommends HA or AA.

I agree that this AA seems nice. I don't see anything that makes HA better tho.

Also I would like to know your opinion about TT90 wrists. They are OK or would you use something different?

Thanks for your post, I really appreciate that. ^^

Silvia_Xenth - Lost City · July 2010

i am 84 and i have almost more stats then that when it comes 2 pdef and mdef so i really didnt like that heavy pwi calculator stat and yeah fox is the best human caster fails.

Tweak why dont u hide in a corner plz we dont want ur rant about how u play ur pve venomancer we all knew u are a chicken who dont dare come 2 the real server 2 prove ur point anyways talking about pvp in a pve server plz.

dare go pure on a pvp server where u are a 1 shoot b:laugh i would laugh so hard

tweakz · July 2010

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't forget the nice critical hit bonus you get as you need to add a lot of dex b:victory

That is no bonus whatsoever. Your average dps is lower, and inconsistent (unreliable aggro management).

Every build will work when done and played correctly.

Already addressed that throwing coin at any build can make it work. Please show an actual benefit to this build to justify it's cost.

Do it right and you'll be great, not matter the build. Let the others say whatever they want. They are not playing your characters therefore they have no right to judge whether you are good or not.

Spending more for less aint doing it right, and you wouldn't have to worry so much about being judged if you weren't here promoting fail build with no new or valuable information to begin with.

This thread fails as it provides no benefit to choosing LA whatsoever. It's just another "I'm LA and I do just fine" flame bait thread.

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

tweakz wrote: »

That is no bonus whatsoever.

Then what's with 5% critical hit I have without having anything to give critical hit on my equipment? b:chuckle Is that "whatsoever"? I still do crits often.

tweakz wrote: »

Spending more for less aint doing it right, and you wouldn't have to worry so much about being judged if you weren't here promoting fail build with no new or valuable information to begin with.

This thread fails as it provides no benefit to choosing LA whatsoever. It's just another "I'm LA and I do just fine" flame bait thread.

Apparently you are not good at reading and understanding. We all here came to express our point of view, give personal opinons and not to promote anything. Did I say "You must get Light Armour!!!!It's the best!!!!!" anywhere in my post?
And I'm not worried about being judged at all. Go ahead say whatever you want. I couldn't careless what a person whom I have never met in my life and never will thinks about me and the way I play. It was an advice but I won't bother explaining because you don't bother reading at all.b:pleased

Also numbers have been posted already for endgame gear so why should I be repeating the post? Well, why don't YOU post the numbers and give examples then? b:laugh If we are all so fail...oh god...give us the right path to follow

Yulk - Heavens Tear · July 2010

LA build is most boring build, at endgame you can manage VERY VERY well while having almost as much HP as VIT venoes. You just have to know how to combine your stats...

But VIT build is still better than LA in terms of survival. But LA venoes are better in terms of damage.

I noticed even with minimum STR and MAG on magic swords, physical attacks (skill spam) does better DPS than magic attacks. Especially when you spark, thanks to quick channels

As long as your not a pure magic veno (like tweakz) your good xD

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I noticed even with minimum STR and MAG on magic swords, physical attacks (skill spam) does better DPS than magic attacks. Especially when you spark, thanks to quick channels

DPS is great especially with spark eruption. I do that often with my LA venomancer because her physical is really low at her current levels. Melee mastery can't be maxed yet and it's not worth getting a really good and expensive weapon yet.

Skill spam works great too but I lose too mana fast so then I just let her do dps like crazy b:laugh plus I build chi really fast and the tank is happy!

Desiree - Harshlands · July 2010

Hm, hard do distinguish whats available on your server and what's not, but here's what I can come up with (with only +8 max though, HA is out of the question):

Pure vit build (i.e. tank): http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=bc8bbd11cc41cd4f
Strategy: Set your pet to manual, run in there in fox form and purge (remove buffs)+ amp (increase damage), tanking the damage with pots and charm. Then run a good distance away and start nuking with lucky scarab (stun) + ironwood scarab (pdef debuff) while using Flesh Ream (Ripping Bite) on them at the same time. The key aspect of this is that they are without buffs and taking a good extra % damage from amplify. For some targets, triple sparking may be necessary but at least they will have a hard time killing you, allowing you to build up that chi.

Pure mag build (i.e. glass cannon): http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1d72289387a03229
Strategy: Here, your strategy is to go in and nuke like a wizard and run. Venos have a lot of survivability: fox form increases your pdef greatly, bramble hood (2 spark reflect damage skill) will save you plenty, and hell venos generally run a lot faster due to fox form so they can kite better. In this case, your pet is fully for support: teach it Pounce (stun skill), Howl (reduce mdef debuff) and Flesh Ream. Chain stun with Pounce, then Lucky Scarab, then Demon Frost Scarab if you have. With your high mattack compounded with your pet's Howl skill, you should be able to quickly finish off any unbuffed target before they get to you. Buffed magic classes may be problematic, but that's where your pet comes in. If anything, you can always use the cheap tactic of staying in safe zone and building up enough chi to triple spark, then nuking away.

~Desiree

blizzypol · July 2010

Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »

Hm, hard do distinguish whats available on your server and what's not, but here's what I can come up with (with only +8 max though, HA is out of the question):

Pure vit build (i.e. tank): http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=bc8bbd11cc41cd4f
Strategy: Set your pet to manual, run in there in fox form and purge (remove buffs)+ amp (increase damage), tanking the damage with pots and charm. Then run a good distance away and start nuking with lucky scarab (stun) + ironwood scarab (pdef debuff) while using Flesh Ream (Ripping Bite) on them at the same time. The key aspect of this is that they are without buffs and taking a good extra % damage from amplify. For some targets, triple sparking may be necessary but at least they will have a hard time killing you, allowing you to build up that chi.

Pure mag build (i.e. glass cannon): http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1d72289387a03229
Strategy: Here, your strategy is to go in and nuke like a wizard and run. Venos have a lot of survivability: fox form increases your pdef greatly, bramble hood (2 spark reflect damage skill) will save you plenty, and hell venos generally run a lot faster due to fox form so they can kite better. In this case, your pet is fully for support: teach it Pounce (stun skill), Howl (reduce mdef debuff) and Flesh Ream. Chain stun with Pounce, then Lucky Scarab, then Demon Frost Scarab if you have. With your high mattack compounded with your pet's Howl skill, you should be able to quickly finish off any unbuffed target before they get to you. Buffed magic classes may be problematic, but that's where your pet comes in. If anything, you can always use the cheap tactic of staying in safe zone and building up enough chi to triple spark, then nuking away.

~Desiree

Well, I know how to play my class, don't worry. ^^

But, hmm. Why TT80 gold chest piece? Wouldn't it be better to use TT99 wrists and chest for set bonus?

I was thinking about some hybrid like that: http://pwcalc.ru/my/?char=b458a0c48ce9a676 what do you think?

And no I don't want pure mag build. You die like fly with it. I was pure mag on 1-89 and it sucked really hard.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · July 2010

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then what's with 5% critical hit I have without having anything to give critical hit on my equipment? b:chuckle Is that "whatsoever"? I still do crits often.

The extra crits can help punch through charms in PvP. But in PvE they amount to just 5% more damage on average. Usually that's far less than the amount of matk a light veno gives up shuffling points into str and dex instead of vit and mag. So there's a net loss in damage. Also, a lot of AA venos I know try to lower crit% so they won't steal aggro from their pets as often.

As a leveling build, I think LA is fine. The stat distribution is simple, you don't give up too much on damage (at lower levels, your pet contributes a bigger portion of the damage), and the extra pdef (most low-mid level mobs are physical) pretty much offsets any loss in hp over a vit-arcane veno.

The reason it falls behind at high level is because once you get to 90+, you start refining and sharding gear a lot more. Since LA aims for a balance of pdef and mdef, it doesn't really provide anything you can't get with sharded AA. When I worked out the math, an AA should be able to shard gear to achieve the same pdef as LA, higher mdef, just as many hp by putting points into vit, and still have ~40 stat points left over. HA suffers the same problem, but are considered a viable build because HA can achieve pdef which sharded AA simply can't touch.

kenlee · July 2010

blizzypol wrote: »

Also I would like to know your opinion about TT90 wrists. They are OK or would you use something different?

why not TT90 gold wrists? has channeling a good amount of pdef

goat111 · July 2010

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then what's with 5% critical hit I have without having anything to give critical hit on my equipment? b:chuckle Is that "whatsoever"? I still do crits often.

Apparently you are not good at reading and understanding. We all here came to express our point of view, give personal opinons and not to promote anything. Did I say "You must get Light Armour!!!!It's the best!!!!!" anywhere in my post?
And I'm not worried about being judged at all. Go ahead say whatever you want. I couldn't careless what a person whom I have never met in my life and never will thinks about me and the way I play. It was an advice but I won't bother explaining because you don't bother reading at all.b:pleased

Also numbers have been posted already for endgame gear so why should I be repeating the post? Well, why don't YOU post the numbers and give examples then? b:laugh If we are all so fail...oh god...give us the right path to follow

/10char

!!!!!!

MANray_ - Sanctuary · July 2010

I was under the impression that LA relied more on physical attacks than on skills for damage. From what i understand they can acomplish much with -int gear... Granted, the build will not be anywhere near as good as a BM or a Sin, but will have all the survival advantages of a veno, a pet and the ability to fall back upon caster skills if necessary. As it was explained to me LA should allow you to A) Maximize the use of foxform gains in atributes and

provide you with the best phys damage dps of any veno build. Now, i'm not entirely sure how this would work or if it would require two different weps to competently fulfill caster/fox roles, but it was made clear to me that the build wasn't about survivability (which LA can decently manage with good gear) but about damage output.

Now, a theoretical veno with a high rate of aps and either a reamed Nix or a good dps pet skilled with appropiate debuffs might certainly make for a viable build in both PvP and PvE regardless of other considerations. This makes it a worthwhile model to pursue even if far from being the most cost effective or potentially powerful...

Now, it may be that HA venos can accomplish this in a more efficient manner and that their advantages simply far outweight the benefits of an LA's higher Dex score but i think the stress here wasn't on comparing phys and mag defense with AA and HA builds. Since unlike HA, an LA build has no need to make up for lost attributes it suposedly can go the extra mile in ensuring is doing everything to maximize damage output. Now, i'm an arcane myself and going only from hearsay and information i haven't personally verified but i thought it would be interesting to bring up the point to this discussion.

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2010

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The extra crits can help punch through charms in PvP. But in PvE they amount to just 5% more damage on average. Usually that's far less than the amount of matk a light veno gives up shuffling points into str and dex instead of vit and mag. So there's a net loss in damage. Also, a lot of AA venos I know try to lower crit% so they won't steal aggro from their pets as often.

The reason it falls behind at high level is because once you get to 90+, you start refining and sharding gear a lot more. Since LA aims for a balance of pdef and mdef, it doesn't really provide anything you can't get with sharded AA. When I worked out the math, an AA should be able to shard gear to achieve the same pdef as LA, higher mdef, just as many hp by putting points into vit, and still have ~40 stat points left over. HA suffers the same problem, but are considered a viable build because HA can achieve pdef which sharded AA simply can't touch.

I still like the critical hit though without working on it too much. I don't mind stealing aggro from my pet (something that hasn't happened so far with my LA veno) I have learnt how to deal with that problem if it happens because...it happened tons on my AA veno b:chuckle

I'm pretty aware of the builds, what they have to offer and how the end up in the endgame. I chose LA for my second venomancer after reading guides and I decided I want LA to start with.
I would go HA myself but I don't think I'll level my other veno past lvl 70-80 b:chuckle

Thanks for the info Solandri that sure will explain a few things to the OP b:victory

Solandri - Heavens Tear · July 2010

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I was under the impression that LA relied more on physical attacks than on skills for damage. From what i understand they can acomplish much with -int gear...

From the playing around with damage numbers, the transition happens at around 2000-2500 patk with level 10 skills. Below that, you do more DPS using fox skills. Above that, you do more DPS using just regular melee attacks. -interval gear can make it happen sooner (-interval helps regular attacks, has no effect on skills). -channel gear can make it happen later (-channel helps skills, has no effect on regular attacks).

The transition is at a lower patk when sparked. Percentage-wise, a spark adds more damage to regular melee than the skills. So your regular melee DPS will gain more from a spark than your skill melee DPS.

(All this assumes a 1.25 atk/sec magic sword.)

As it was explained to me LA should allow you to A) Maximize the use of foxform gains in atributes and provide you with the best phys damage dps of any veno build. Now, i'm not entirely sure how this would work or if it would require two different weps to competently fulfill caster/fox roles, but it was made clear to me that the build wasn't about survivability (which LA can decently manage with good gear) but about damage output.

From a theoretical standpoint, having two weapons, one for melee and one for casting, would seem to be best. However, from a practical standpoint...

I was in exactly that situation in my 70s and 80s. I actually had a melee and casting weapon at level 70. After I got my level 80 weapon (flawless sapphire sharded for casting), I did some number crunching. For the cost of two TT80 weapons refined to +3, I could make one TT80 weapon and refine it to +5 or +6. The +5 TT80 with flawless sapphires had pretty much the same patk as the +3 TT80 with flawless garnets, and significantly higher matk than the +3 TT80 with sapphires. So it was better to just refine one weapon a bit more than to buy, shard, and refine a second weapon for melee.

So unless they're different weapon types (e.g. wand for casting, sword for melee), I wouldn't bother with a second weapon.

Now, it may be that HA venos can accomplish this in a more efficient manner and that their advantages simply far outweight the benefits of an LA's higher Dex score but i think the stress here wasn't on comparing phys and mag defense with AA and HA builds. Since unlike HA, an LA build has no need to make up for lost attributes it suposedly can go the extra mile in ensuring is doing everything to maximize damage output.

If you're going to go the -interval route, the difference between LA and HA damage is not huge. At level 100, HA needs 252 str. LA needs 104 str. That extra 148 str translates into about 1.0 in the patk modifer.

patk = (1 + str/150 + melee mastery + spark) * (equip patk)

So for a level 90ish Sage veno, the left hand side is about 4.7 for the HA vs 3.7 for the LA - the heavy does 27% more DPS. That seems big, but -int lets you spark more frequently. At 2 atk/sec, you're able to triple spark every ~40 sec. Add a chi genie and you can probably do it every 30 sec. So a substantial portion of your damage is going to be done while sparked, which is 9.7 for the HA vs 8.7 for the LA - the heavy does just 11% more. Average the two out over the time intervals and account for the difference in crit%, and the heavy is only doing about 14% more melee DPS than the light.

A good ring can make a 5% difference over a mediocre one (~10% for a pair), and going from 2.0 to 2.22 atk/sec will gain you 11%. So I consider the LA's melee dps to be just one notch below the heavy's.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · July 2010

Thanks for your response Solandri, as usual an enlightening and useful contribution. I guess i would conclude that since HA does deliver a bit more damage while bringing much better defense numbers to the table, the HA wins out on phys damage output as a goal. It's very interesting to find out what venos are truly capable of.

Still, i would hope this doesn't discourage people whose goal it is to build an endgame LA veno. Different capabilities do come in handy in different situations and it's precisely diversity that makes veno such an amazing class to play.

Gasoline - Lost City · July 2010

blizzypol wrote: »

I don't understand why ppl on PWI (I am playing on MS) are hating LA venos so much (at least I think so - assuming on many threads posted here). I see everywhere the same "HA > LA noob omg wtf". I am Veno lvl 93, LA build, 100% caster. My goal is to get something like that on lvl 99 http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c4cb1c7932d37b77 (Note that there is obvious difference between PWI and MS), and I would really like to know why it "sux" so hard. Also, I would be grateful if you could post something more than just flame here. Thanks.

That build is kinda bad since you have pretty much the same stats a 99+ archer - which is **** survivability. You have low mag def, low phy def and pretty low hp to in endgame gear.

Im heavy/AA and have higher phy def, higher mag def and more hp with similar gear and refines <.<

The extra crits you get from LA is pretty nice tho i agree. But over all both Heavy and AA allows you to make builds with higher survivability, that costs about same money in terms of gear/refines.

I guess if you dont care about survivability and just want crits, than go ahead and pick LA XD After all venos really dont need to tank much dmg, we have so many immune skills and can kite.

LA Venos

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