How to be more useful in RB?

tweakz
tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
edited July 2010 in Venomancer
Every time I'm stuck in a BH RB with 2 other venos: it fails and it shouldn't. It doesn't help that they're vit venos or that they're ignorant or lazy. Some seem to think that all they need to do is cast Noxious and Nova. By failing: you're causing the whole squad to lose xp, time, coin, drops, rep, etc. You're also casting a bad name for venos making it harder for us to get in RB squads. When mobs hit: you should have 0 idle time. You should never be just standing there waiting for cool down.

Some suggestions, maybe not best but better than just Nova/Noxious:

Pass Spark to BM for Heaven's Flame
Master Li's Technique
Myriad Rainbow FoxForm
Malefic Crush (preferably after Myriad)

Keep BMs and Barbs Brambled -*Their use of Alpha Male removes it.

-and if nothing else: Venemous to build chi!

Genie Skills:

Tangling Mire
Frenzy
Leaf Dance

If a squishy is struggling:

Befuddling Mist (it's acc reducer is AoE)

-Slanted toward the Sage veno, maybe someone has more suggestions and some for Demon.

The point is: Don't stand idle! We should be able to replace Wizards.
Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
Post edited by tweakz on

Comments

  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    If a squishy is struggling:

    Toxic Mist (it's acc reducer is AoE)

    You mean Befuddling Mist... Toxic Mist is an elemental bash pet skill.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    You mean Befuddling Mist... Toxic Mist is an elemental bash pet skill.

    -ty, fixed it!
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  • MindCrime - Harshlands
    MindCrime - Harshlands Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    What the heck is RB...oh you mean GV.

    Eh, I'm always the ticket runner QQ.

    PS: When you are done with tickets and actually get to attack stuff, use parasitic nova a lot to help keep mobs stunned and off cleric.

    Edit: WHat the heck server you playing on where the veno just uses nova/ noxious? I use everything I can to help kill mobs and keep squad alive. And btw im vit arcane and do just fine. =]
  • glacialmelt
    glacialmelt Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Try this chain: works much better with HA venos, but its still better to cast in normal since delta mobs have lower mag defs than p-defs. Also remember mist is an aoe spell, albeit short range, but mobs are tight packed in delta anyway.

    Noxious>Nova>noxious>genie chi skill> foxform>myarid>Crush>mist>mist>Li's> Crush>Normal>noxious>lucky or venom>Nova> Noxious
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    glacialmelt wrote: »
    Try this chain: works much better with HA venos, but its still better to cast in normal since delta mobs have lower mag defs than p-defs. Also remember mist is an aoe spell, albeit short range, but mobs are tight packed in delta anyway.

    Noxious>Nova>noxious>genie chi skill> foxform>myarid>Crush>mist>mist>Li's> Crush>Normal>noxious>lucky or venom>Nova> Noxious

    I'd only recommend mist in an emergency situation. Mobs missing brambled squad mates means no reflect dmg.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • sleepcat
    sleepcat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Noxious, Nova, Myriad, Crush, and Mist are pretty much what I spam throughout the RB when I'm not lazy. Keep pet on eye, pass sparks if Chi aura isn't up yet, keep bramble active, Domain when things look dicey, and that's pretty much the gist of it.

    I don't agree that we can ever replace Wizards though. Constant DB is just something Venos can't replicate.
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    sleepcat wrote: »
    I don't agree that we can ever replace Wizards though. Constant DB is just something Venos can't replicate.

    Most Wiz's aren't pure mag. Even as non pures, they most often out DD vit arcane venos but not pure mag venos. We don't need constant AoE. We just need to stop being lazy. Between Noxious, Nova, Crush, Myriad we have practically constant.Throw some genie skills in and compliment that. We're one of the few classes that can go through an RB with little to no costs. We don't need Vacuities, charms, etc. -nothing. The least we can do is make ourselves worth having.
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    I'd only recommend mist in an emergency situation. Mobs missing brambled squad mates means no reflect dmg.
    I dunno. Befuddling Mist does a good amount of damage and the Sage/Demon versions are cheap enough I assume everyone has it (if you don't, get it). Demon does patk + 2281 damage. Sage does patk + 3081. Figure even an arcane fox has ~2k patk, and you're at around 4281(D) or 5081(S) damage from Mist.

    Most mobs seem to attack once every 2-3 sec. Go with the worst case and say 2 sec. During the 8 sec Mist is on, that's 4 attacks. Reflect is is 60%(S) or 75%(D). That means even if Mist makes all 4 attacks miss, the mob has to do over 2117(S) or 1427(D) damage per hit for reflect to do more damage.

    Looking at a few mobs in RB, it looks like they're right around 2k patk. Since this is a worst-case scenario (fast-attacking mob, all attacks miss because of Mist), it's probably worth it for Sage venos to use Mist in there. Demon is more iffy, but if the mob's attack period is 3 sec, then it's probably worth it for them too.
    sleepcat wrote: »
    Noxious, Nova, Myriad, Crush, and Mist are pretty much what I spam throughout the RB when I'm not lazy.
    What's Crush do against mobs? Or are you all Demon?
  • sleepcat
    sleepcat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What's Crush do against mobs? Or are you all Demon?

    Nothing important. It's really just a filler damage aoe since I usually have the extra chi for it and can get the extra chi to cast nova again as soon as its cooldown finishes.
    tweakz wrote: »
    We just need to stop being lazy.

    :(((((((((((((
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  • Andromaka - Heavens Tear
    Andromaka - Heavens Tear Posts: 925 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I never ever done rb bh with more than 2venos but tbh i loved it with 2 venos. Rb is very easy for veno and yes almost no costs.
    1st of all, with or without chi aura veno should always have 2 sparks at least before each wave. Keep herc/pet on the eye once auras are up.
    As soon as mobs come in same time with BM HF or even before that use Nova to stop mobs from attacking cleric (ranged archer mobs especially)
    Then spam noxious gas/venomous scarab to build chi, use fox form myriad if u get an increase life mob amp it, demon crush vigor to build more chi...use nova again as soon as skill is up again. It is easy and venos are very usefull... i dont really see how 2+ venos in a squad could wipe squad. 2-3 venos +1 bm can keep mobs almost 90% of time stunned/sealed...
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Andromaka - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    As soon as mobs come in same time with BM HF or even before that use Nova to stop mobs from attacking cleric (ranged archer mobs especially)

    Glad someone mentioned this because you get more aoe dps from Noxious-> Nova -> Noxious.

    Then spam noxious gas/venomous scarab to build chi, use fox form myriad if u get an increase life mob amp it, demon crush vigor to build more chi...use nova again as soon as skill is up again. It is easy and venos are very usefull... i dont really see how 2+ venos in a squad could wipe squad. 2-3 venos +1 bm can keep mobs almost 90% of time stunned/sealed...

    The fail is more from a lack of dps than stuns/ seals. BMs can handle the aggro/ stunning on their own.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Actually - can someone give some numbers on our sustained AOE damage vs a wizards? I know wizards have better spike, but I have no idea how their AOE actually compares in practice.

    Also, trollish posting style aside - thank you Tweakz for actually posting something, which answers my "Should I use myriad in RB" question.

    I'll ignor the squads screaming "No! You'll kill the wizard!" should I?
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Actually - can someone give some numbers on our sustained AOE damage vs a wizards? I know wizards have better spike, but I have no idea how their AOE actually compares in practice.
    Their sustained AOE does matk + 4800 damage every 3 sec (Sage and Demon versions).

    Veno Noxious Gas, if you assume the DoT runs its full duration and 30% channel, does:
    Sage: matk + 200% weap + 6108 every 7.75 sec
    Demon: matk + 200% weap + 4592 every 6.75 sec

    For a 450 mag caster, the 200% weapon damage translates into 0.36 matk. So the veno numbers simplify to:
    Sage: 1.36*matk + 6108 every 7.75 sec
    Demon: 1.36*matk + 4592 every 6.75 sec

    So for AOE DPS you end up with:
    Wizard: 0.333*matk + 1600 every sec
    S.Veno: 0.175*matk + 788 every sec
    D.Veno: 0.201*matk + 680 every sec

    Parasitic Nova is matk + 300% weap + 6606 per cast. If you can somehow manage to build up enough sparks to fire it every time it cools down (30 sec cooldown, 2.1 sec channel @ 30% channeling), you're adding:
    Nova: 0.048*matk + 206 every sec

    So best-case for the veno (ignoring single target damage and assuming you can fire Nova every time it cools down), you're doing:
    Wizard: 0.333*matk + 1600 every sec
    S.Veno: 0.223*matk + 994 every sec
    D.Veno: 0.249*matk + 886 every sec

    Add in Demon Nova having a chance at a 30% Amp and Demon venos can actually be pretty respectable at AOE. (Although having your target die just as your spell is about to finish casting is really annoying.) Wizard AOE radius is slightly bigger too (12m vs 9m for Noxious).

    If you aren't using sparks for Nova, here's what the veno numbers jump to for just spamming Noxious as much as possible while sparked:
    S.Veno
    1x spark: 0.223*matk + 788 every sec (2 casts)
    2x spark: 0.270*matk + 788 every sec (2 casts)
    3x spark: 0.387*matk + 788 every sec (2 casts)

    D.Veno
    1x spark: 0.256*mark + 680 every sec (2 casts)
    2x spark: 0.310*matk + 680 every sec (2 casts)
    3x spark: 0.391*matk + 680 every sec (3 casts)

    Of course the question is, how frequently you can spark?
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    There's no easy way to compare AoE DPS with numbers and formulas in this situation. There's a lot of randomness in Myriad Rainbow, and there's the physical dmg we can do on mag resist with Crush and Bramble. We can also hit the mag resists / Increased Life with Ironwood or Amp. When I suggest we could replace a Wiz: it's a pure mag veno vs a vit (common) or heavy wiz. Level can also come into play. I had a very smooth full RB last night with a Lv93 wiz. RB BH is for Lv. 100+ (100+ veno vs 9x wiz). I'm also quite familiar with pulling aggro from archers and wizzies my level.

    I don't think people equip Wizards the same as Venos either. I focus more on +mag for my Wiz while I focus on -ch for my veno. Wiz's also tend to have more defense ornaments on vs -ch or +mag as well.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Yulk - Heavens Tear
    Yulk - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,951 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    tweakz, how disapointing for you not to know that toxic mist is a pet skill. what other fox skills you don't know?

    on top of that, never underestimate pure vit venos because you are a wiz wanna-be b:bye.
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  • Larue - Harshlands
    Larue - Harshlands Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    *ignore Yulk*

    Most of this is mentioned around a sage veno, as a demon even though 20% chance to pass 2 sparks is unlikely it still happens. Like someone mentioned before Absolute Domain is good, but if the 2 sparks do transfer pair up Cloud Eruption on that genie too. Chi doesn't go too fast since most people don't know level 11 lending hand is 15 second cooldown, but if ever lacking you can always use Blazing Scarab on a single mob, it gives the same amount of chi as Noxious, and casts faster than Venomous.

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