+10 vit stone Q
LordBaldor - Heavens Tear
Posts: 58 Arc User
well im just wondering how much do they go for and how would i come by them. i look in AH but never seem to find any. ty for the help
Post edited by LordBaldor - Heavens Tear on
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On HT I see them for ~20m, sometimes a little lower.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
9x Demon Cleric0 -
Since you are a barbarian, you need HP. But for other classes, pat attention. Defense Level is better then Vitality. So when you have endgame gear, shard with Diamond of Tiger or Jade of Steady Defense.Please donate money into my mailbox
I'm poor as heck.0 -
DrkLordZ - Sanctuary wrote: »So when you have endgame gear, shard with Diamond of Tiger or Jade of Steady Defense.
Only if your ornaments are extremely well refined (e.g. +10 neck, belt and maybe rings depending on what rings/class). Otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot by using Jades of Steady Defense with a low base pdef/mdef.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »Only if your ornaments are extremely well refined (e.g. +10 neck, belt and maybe rings depending on what rings/class). Otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot by using Jades of Steady Defense with a low base pdef/mdef.
I would like this explained a little more in depth. Why do ornaments need to be refined? I thought just armor for the requisite base hp? Also, Jade of Steady Defense can only be put into G13+ gear, which means Nirvana and event, no TT 99.0 -
Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »I would like this explained a little more in depth. Why do ornaments need to be refined? I thought just armor for the requisite base hp? Also, Jade of Steady Defense can only be put into G13+ gear, which means Nirvana and event, no TT 99.
Refining phys resist ornaments increases the physical def bonus you get from them. So the higher you refine a physical defense ornament, the more physical defense you get from that ornament. Might rings do the same thing.[SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=5843465009&dateline=1276709082[/SIGPIC]
~Made by the amazing Forsakenx~
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Cyrl - Raging Tide wrote: »Refining phys resist ornaments increases the physical def bonus you get from them. So the higher you refine a physical defense ornament, the more physical defense you get from that ornament. Might rings do the same thing.
I understand that, but how does it relate to defense level?0 -
Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »I would like this explained a little more in depth. Why do ornaments need to be refined? I thought just armor for the requisite base hp? Also, Jade of Steady Defense can only be put into G13+ gear, which means Nirvana and event, no TT 99.
Reducing the total amount of damage you take by a certain percentage goes a lot furthur the more you reduce your damage. Going from 21% damage reduction to 22% damage reduction means you take 1.28% less damage, but going from 80% to 81% means you take 5% less damage. This may seem wrong at first glance, but its true, since you're taking away from the total amount, and not the amount remaining.
Suppose I attacked you for base 10k damage:
21% means you take 7900 damage
22% means you take 7800 damage
22% is 1.28% lower that 21%
80% means you take 2000 damage
81% means you take 1900 damage
81% is 5% lower than 80%
Therefore, the more you put into your gear, the more you get out of it.
As a side note, you can also put Jades into gold OHT and Lunar gear.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Guys, I understand that refining your ornaments can make you take less damage, that should be common knowledge. My question is: why is having high refines on said ornaments a prerequisite for sharding defense level gems,? You seem to be implying that those refines wouldn't be necessary if you were to use +10 vit stones instead.0
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What they mean is, the higher refine on said ornaments = The better dmg reduction with Jade of Steady Defense.
If you have low refine, the dmg reduction wont be as good.0 -
Oh. I assumed if you were spending 15-20m on a single shard, you would be able to refine your stuff past +5 too, I guess....0
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Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »Guys, I understand that refining your ornaments can make you take less damage, that should be common knowledge. My question is: why is having high refines on said ornaments a prerequisite for sharding defense level gems,? You seem to be implying that those refines wouldn't be necessary if you were to use +10 vit stones instead.
She wasn't saying you wouldn't need high refines if you use vit stones, she was saying vit stones are better than defense stones until you have more defense. Though I think the actual amount of defense you would need for this to be true is a lot lower than what she said. You could equate the increase in defense as a gain in HP, since you're gaining the ability to take more hits. So if a vit stone gives you +150 hp, you'd be better off using a defense stone IFF:
(percentage def increase)*(totalhp) < 150 hp*(1+(percentage def increase from 10vit))
So actually, current max HP is a factor too.
Though I've never seen a case where using steady defenses wasn't better, since most endgame gear either features some tt99/G12 cape/Rank gear (where vit stones go), or anyone who can afford full nirvana/event and fill it with 20mil stones can afford to refine it nicely too.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »So actually, current max HP is a factor too.
Though I've never seen a case where using steady defenses wasn't better, since most endgame gear either features some tt99/G12 cape/Rank gear (where vit stones go), or anyone who can afford full nirvana/event and fill it with 20mil stones can afford to refine it nicely too.
This was exactly my point b:victory0 -
Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »Guys, I understand that refining your ornaments can make you take less damage, that should be common knowledge. My question is: why is having high refines on said ornaments a prerequisite for sharding defense level gems,? You seem to be implying that those refines wouldn't be necessary if you were to use +10 vit stones instead.
Increasing defence numbers has diminishing returns. For example, if you have a high base pdef of, lets say, 10000, this can be something like 80% physical damage reduction (random numbers that came out of nowhere). Adding a garnet gem that gives +125 more pdef will make no difference (i.e. maybe increase it to 80.1%) due to diminishing returns. In this case, a flat +2 defence lvl (i.e. +2% pdef --> 82%) will be better. Alternatively, lets say your base pdef is very low at 2000 (30%). Adding a garnet gem that gives +125 more pdef will make a huge difference of maybe 5%. In this case, the flat 2% is much worse.
These are just random but relative numbers I'm pulling out of thin air but the effect is the same. You may look up the actual formulas if you wish, but the bottom line is, low base pdef/mdef (i.e. not highly refined ornaments), use the +pdef/mdef shards. If high base pdef/mdef, use the jades of steady defence due to diminishing returns in base defences.
Keep in mind, however, that defence level doesn't always apply to all attacks, e.g. a nix's Flesh Ream's bleed damage ignores defence level and is only affected by base defences. As well, buffs increase your base defences, but not your defence level (applied after base defence damage reduction).
As for the defence gems vs vit gems argument, here's the situation. Increasing base defence has diminishing returns. After a certain point, reducing an attack that, for example, deals 1000 damage to you by an additional 1% is not as effective as just having an additional 10 vit (note that vit adds HP points, the amount depending on your class, as well as acts like a minor multiplier for your base defence). Increasing your max HP also affects things like a barb's HP buff, percent healers like Tree of Protection and a few apoc pots, and, of course, charms. If you can afford to put +10 vit stones on your gear, however, you probably already have your ornaments highly refined, in which case more HP is probably the better choice.
~Desiree[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »As for the defence gems vs vit gems argument, here's the situation. Increasing base defence has diminishing returns. After a certain point, reducing an attack that, for example, deals 1000 damage to you by an additional 1% is not as effective as just having an additional 10 vit (note that vit adds HP points, the amount depending on your class, as well as acts like a minor multiplier for your base defence). Increasing your max HP also affects things like a barb's HP buff, percent healers like Tree of Protection and a few apoc pots, and, of course, charms. If you can afford to put +10 vit stones on your gear, however, you probably already have your ornaments highly refined, in which case more HP is probably the better choice.
~Desiree
As a rough estimate, going by the forumula I posted earlier, to benifit more from defense stones than vit stones:
BMs need ~7.5k hp
Archers/Sins need 6.5k hp
Robe classes need 5k hp
Assuming the benifits the vit stones give you defensivly are negligible. I would assume anyone who can remotely afford 20mil gems and g13 gear would surpass this significantly, making the benifit of +2 def gems even greater. I would say the best way to shard gear (ignore diamond of tiger) would be to put +10 vit stones into your g12 and under gear, and +2 def stones into the g13+ gear.
Also, with non-percent healers (all cleric heals and most potions), you benifit more from having higher defenses than HP, because you stretch out the HP you're given a lot furthur. Whats a large pool of HP going to do for you when you're fragile?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »As a rough estimate, going by the forumula I posted earlier, to benifit more from defense stones than vit stones:
BMs need ~7.5k hp
Archers/Sins need 6.5k hp
Robe classes need 5k hp
Assuming the benifits the vit stones give you defensivly are negligible. I would assume anyone who can remotely afford 20mil gems and g13 gear would surpass this significantly, making the benifit of +2 def gems even greater. I would say the best way to shard gear (ignore diamond of tiger) would be to put +10 vit stones into your g12 and under gear, and +2 def stones into the g13+ gear.
Also, with non-percent healers (all cleric heals and most potions), you benifit more from having higher defenses than HP, because you stretch out the HP you're given a lot furthur. Whats a large pool of HP going to do for you when you're fragile?
Umn ... I know this might be unimportant... but +vit kinda adds mgk & phys def as well as hp... Not that much... but still wanted to add.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »As a rough estimate, going by the forumula I posted earlier, to benifit more from defense stones than vit stones:
BMs need ~7.5k hp
Archers/Sins need 6.5k hp
Robe classes need 5k hp
Assuming the benifits the vit stones give you defensivly are negligible. I would assume anyone who can remotely afford 20mil gems and g13 gear would surpass this significantly, making the benifit of +2 def gems even greater. I would say the best way to shard gear (ignore diamond of tiger) would be to put +10 vit stones into your g12 and under gear, and +2 def stones into the g13+ gear.
I would agree... however have you looked into the differences you would obtain from sharding sapphire/garnet gems for people that are going for 4+ pieces of Twilight Nirvana with the stacking +% bonuses? I think JoSD would probably still win out, especially considering the prices.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Nvmd
10char0 -
Defense does not have diminishing returns. If you work out the math, 100 extra pdef adds the same amount of survivability whether you have 1k pdef or 20k pdef. The definition of diminishing returns is that the incremental benefit for something becomes less the more of the thing you get. Since the incremental benefit remains the same, there is no diminishing returns. Most people mess this up because they're looking at the damage reduction from defense. The number you need to be looking at is damage transmitted, 1 - DR. Do that and you'll see it's linear.Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »As for the defence gems vs vit gems argument, here's the situation. Increasing base defence has diminishing returns. After a certain point, reducing an attack that, for example, deals 1000 damage to you by an additional 1% is not as effective as just having an additional 10 vit
If you mean that as a percentage of total, the benefit becomes smaller the higher you go, then yes, it does diminish the higher you go. But the exact same thing happens to hp. Adding 100 hp if you have 1k hp increases your total 10%. Adding 100 hp if you have 10k hp only increase your total 1%. So again, there is no difference between the two stones from a percent of total standpoint.
As has been posted, which is better depends on your current hp and def. For a straight-up no-healing fight (e.g. PvP), and especially if you take into account price, adding hp ends up usually being more beneficial than adding defense. The threshold point at which defense becomes better than hp comes at very low defense and very high hp, enough so that probably 90%-95% of characters benefit more from extra hp.
If you're being healed (e.g. tanking) this changes a bit, as the higher defense amplifies the effect of the heals / causes less strain on your charm. How much this favors defense shards is much harder to gauge though, as it depends on the rate at which you're being healed.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »If you mean that as a percentage of total, the benefit becomes smaller the higher you go, then yes, it does diminish the higher you go. But the exact same thing happens to hp. Adding 100 hp if you have 1k hp increases your total 10%. Adding 100 hp if you have 10k hp only increase your total 1%. So again, there is no difference between the two stones from a percent of total standpoint.
I feel like this is one of those things I've said and explained a million times, yet people still refuse to believe me.
Edit: Solandri, wouldn't you count charm ticks as "healing" in PvP? At the very least, hp food would count.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Defense does not have diminishing returns. If you work out the math, 100 extra pdef adds the same amount of survivability whether you have 1k pdef or 20k pdef. The definition of diminishing returns is that the incremental benefit for something becomes less the more of the thing you get. Since the incremental benefit remains the same, there is no diminishing returns. Most people mess this up because they're looking at the damage reduction from defense. The number you need to be looking at is damage transmitted, 1 - DR. Do that and you'll see it's linear.
If you mean that as a percentage of total, the benefit becomes smaller the higher you go, then yes, it does diminish the higher you go. But the exact same thing happens to hp. Adding 100 hp if you have 1k hp increases your total 10%. Adding 100 hp if you have 10k hp only increase your total 1%. So again, there is no difference between the two stones from a percent of total standpoint.
As has been posted, which is better depends on your current hp and def. For a straight-up no-healing fight (e.g. PvP), and especially if you take into account price, adding hp ends up usually being more beneficial than adding defense. The threshold point at which defense becomes better than hp comes at very low defense and very high hp, enough so that probably 90%-95% of characters benefit more from extra hp.
If you're being healed (e.g. tanking) this changes a bit, as the higher defense amplifies the effect of the heals / causes less strain on your charm. How much this favors defense shards is much harder to gauge though, as it depends on the rate at which you're being healed.
oh, lol.
b:laughb:laughb:laugh____________
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Defense does not have diminishing returns. If you work out the math, 100 extra pdef adds the same amount of survivability whether you have 1k pdef or 20k pdef. The definition of diminishing returns is that the incremental benefit for something becomes less the more of the thing you get. Since the incremental benefit remains the same, there is no diminishing returns. Most people mess this up because they're looking at the damage reduction from defense. The number you need to be looking at is damage transmitted, 1 - DR. Do that and you'll see it's linear.
Its actually a non-linear function, since the entire equation is floored to the nearest % dmg reduction.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
well, solandri's math is based on taking damage 1 over and over again... i cant say its not true but is far from real pvp where you have hp charms, hp pots, survivability skills and so on. hp is important but i know many players with not that much hp above me that takes double or triple damage than me in pvp since they went hp route. uh and there are two types of defenses which makes things even harder0
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Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Defense does not have diminishing returns. If you work out the math, 100 extra pdef adds the same amount of survivability whether you have 1k pdef or 20k pdef. The definition of diminishing returns is that the incremental benefit for something becomes less the more of the thing you get. Since the incremental benefit remains the same, there is no diminishing returns. Most people mess this up because they're looking at the damage reduction from defense. The number you need to be looking at is damage transmitted, 1 - DR. Do that and you'll see it's linear.
I'm basing it on damage reduction percentage as displayed in-game (how that actually effects damage taken, I have not tested).
lvl 100 BM with 5k pdef = 56% physical damage reduction
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=5e5693d4ca56dfeb
lvl 100 BM with 10k pdef = 72% physical damage reduction
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ba0cb35593db8778
lvl 100 BM with 20k pdef = 83% physical damage reduction
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=7735bef990868a0d
In terms of the displayed % physical damage reduction. 100 extra pdef has more of a percent impact when you have 5k pdef compared to if you have 20k pdef. That is what people ultimately look at. I have no actual data to support my claim nor I do not know the formula of how this affects damage taken, but I would assume that displayed percentage is used and of significance. Feel free to prove otherwise (if it is indeed otherwise, please do, I am curious)
~Desiree[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »In terms of the displayed % physical damage reduction. 100 extra pdef has more of a percent impact when you have 5k pdef compared to if you have 20k pdef. That is what people ultimately look at. I have no actual data to support my claim nor I do not know the formula of how this affects damage taken, but I would assume that displayed percentage is used and of significance. Feel free to prove otherwise (if it is indeed otherwise, please do, I am curious)
~Desiree
What you're failing to see is that the benefit of the increased % reduction is relative to how much reduction you have.
If you have 0% reduction and get +1%, your survivabilty increased by 1%, a tiny amount (you used to take 100% damage, now take 99%).
On the other hand if you have 90% reduction and get +1%, your survivability has just increased by 10% (you used to take 10% damage, now will only take 9%).
The point is that while the change in the displayed % may get smaller as your def increases, the amount of work that % does goes up.
Also, this is completely separate from the reduction given by def stones, they are applied to damage after all reductions from Pdef and Mdef have taken place. So if you have 50% reduction due to Pdef, and get a -2 def stone, you have effectively 49% phys. reduction. The stone will reduce 2% of the 50% damage that the Pdef lets through.0 -
I already did it in another thread earlier this year and generated a nice graph of it:Desiree - Harshlands wrote: »In terms of the displayed % physical damage reduction. 100 extra pdef has more of a percent impact when you have 5k pdef compared to if you have 20k pdef. That is what people ultimately look at. I have no actual data to support my claim nor I do not know the formula of how this affects damage taken, but I would assume that displayed percentage is used and of significance. Feel free to prove otherwise (if it is indeed otherwise, please do, I am curious)
pdef/damage_taken is linear. So the incremental benefit from adding X pdef is the same whether you have 0 pdef or 20k pdef. Just like hp. (Forgive the titles I gave the graphs. They were from a debate about whether or not pdef vs damage taken was linear, and the other person was arguing that damage taken / pdef wasn't a straight line so it wasn't linear. I was trying to show it was just a linear plot inverted 1/x.)
If you're talking in terms of % of the total, then hp behaves exactly the same way, and there's no need to prefer one over the other for that reason.
Correct. Which is why I said it changes if you're getting healed. Unless we can come up with a list of all the different types of attacks you can suffer in the game and a frequency chart of how often you're likely to suffer each type, there is no way to figure out which combo of hp and def is "best" in general play. The only scenario where you can calculate a "best" are the extremes - if you're not being healed, and if you're being spam-healed at a certain rate.well, solandri's math is based on taking damage 1 over and over again... i cant say its not true but is far from real pvp where you have hp charms, hp pots, survivability skills and so on. hp is important but i know many players with not that much hp above me that takes double or triple damage than me in pvp since they went hp route. uh and there are two types of defenses which makes things even harder0 -
ah ok well ty also atm im using m def ornements is that the right thing to do?
i think i am going to stick with 40-50 hp shards till i hit the 90s. it just seems like to much of a investment that i wont get a reture for if i do it at lower lvl. is it pretty rare to find endgame armor with the stones already in it? most the time i find it cheaper to buy things that way atleast for the gear i have rather then puting them in ur self0
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