What define a bad Veno?

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

And Tweakz =\ ... that's just harsh. I dont have to resort to calling someone else a mooch or anything like that. Relax man, ffs. I'm here trying to compare my expierences and what i DO know and use with that of others.
There's no need to be calling me fail when i'm actually trying to get a better understanding together with other people on here.
Like i said, i didn't use amp before, didn't even bother but when i got to this thread got me thinking and tried doing it the way YOU and other people advice. I tried it and gave my expierences from MY own perosnal point of view.but i suppose you havent even bothered to read that... and instead jumped to the cause in calling all veno's fail that dont use Amp. i'm open for any sort of feedback, not people BLAMING me for being a high lvl weakling.
You speak like you know it all but apparently leaving someone in their worth and showing alittle common decentsy isn't something you poses.
Way to go buddy on being an inconsiderate Know-it-all and making me question why i even bother to get a better understanding in my class to indeed BE more of assistance when needed. keep up the good work b:sweat

No: Harsh is expecting others to pay out for you. You're blatting about the cost of cheap skills, and the cost of using skills (*that no one else seems to have an issue with). Some common decency would be to get yourself spell check since you're so difficult to read, but of course that would take up your precious time and cost you when it doesn't others. =S

/NiKi - Lost City wrote: »

those are bosses in 2-3 mode which hit pretty hard even without buffs.
well cosmo u can find in other modes too,but hes not that bad as in 2-3,
so its necessary to purge the buffs.

as for healing pet to get full chi..i meant b4 boss,not during it.other then that,myriad takes only 20 chi,so even if u use it and ironwood,and pass the spark,ur chi still is not empty and with casting other skills u will have full chi back even before ur cooldown on lending hand is done.
pole hits hard with aoe,especially if u have low pdef which might be reason ur gear,shards,or ornaments,i dont know ur build but if aoe knock ur hp to critical state in fox form,u can be sure u would be dead if u were in human form.

i do agree with u tho that myriad sucks up alot of mana,i dont use it as much either unless i spam healing on herc and cant cast any other skill in between besides myriad since its instant.
but as much u spend mana or chi with casting those skills,u do speed up process of killing bosses and that way u save ur mana if u finish it couple of minutes before.
u maybe dont see point of amping bh bosses,but u will surely see difference in hh where bosses have up to 4mil hp.

Ah that's probably why i havent heard of them before because i havent finished that part of my quests yet. XD and i dont think i have been in HH before either O.o ...
Perhaps indeed that -is- the big difference and why some things could be rather time consuming with bosses with that high of HP in comparison to bh bosses.
If i do get in that part of my Questing/TT and HH I'll be sure to see the difference in amping or not, thanks !

With the chi/spark thing on my reply to you, yea i kinda picked a worst case scenario and indeed how some more "time-slowing" veno's work up their sparks. while i know that 20 chi is already easily gained by noxious gas. so there's no problem there.
The reason why i might sound a bit bittered and to some people whining about skills up grading is that The way alot of people make it come across is that a veno should do all of those skills JUST for the sake of others.
I merely went out and posed a different kind of view of why i dont FULLY agree on that =\

tweakz wrote: »

No: Harsh is expecting others to pay out for you. You're blatting about the cost of cheap skills, and the cost of using skills (*that no one else seems to have an issue with). Some common decency would be to get yourself spell check since you're so difficult to read, but of course that would take up your precious time and cost you when it doesn't others. =S

Tweakz, what ever man. I dont expect others to pay out for me at all.
I KNOW of the high costs others can have, especially for a cleric considering my husband is one.
I dont expect The barb to run up high in repairbills just so i can be lazy and dont tank anything or not DD and just go running about doing my own thing. I have more than enough paid the entire repair-bill for them in Gamma or 202020 of the FB69 cause they were damn good in what they do and make it so i dont have to but they couldn't ( at that time ) pay it up. (whether that's me being overly generous or dumb i dont care. i could afford it, got great help/squad and another nice person on my friendslist )
I give away my sparks to others when ever i dont use them or when they ask, and i'm fine with that. what i didn't agree on is that other people -expect- you to in a way YOU expect me to lay down roll over, give paw and nod with what your trying to cram down my throat.
Your being rude and called me a mooch from the get go without looking further than that.
English isn't my first language so i dont know why your being a nittypicker on that when i know how to make my point come accros quite well and have a better understanding of it than some people that actually have english as their first language.

Fine you and i dont agree with each other, that's okay. but would you mind ? seriously =\ i can enjoy a civil discussion, whether or not in the end we all agree on the same thing. But you, quite frankly, havent been discussing something rather than pointing the finger and accusing from post one. Can we just leave it at this and say we dont agree ? cause i indeed wasn't planning on spending my time argueing with you over who's a mooch or not when all i'm trying to do is compare, expierence and hear from other people's point of views. not get accusations and rude comments from someone like you who cant even see i am actualy putting in effort into undertanding the use for something i had no knowledge of before.

If i do get in that part of my Questing/TT and HH I'll be sure to see the difference in amping or not, thanks !

Lol HH is TT. It's called Holy Hall (or Heavenly Hall or smth like that) in some other versions.


As for being afraid to go near a boss to amp cause of aoe. The bosses don't exactly aoe non stop, unless a ranged char is tanking a mgk boss. The timing between aoes is about 10sec or so, enough to run close right after an aoe & do an amp/purge/etc without getting hit.

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

See, i didn't know that, thanks XD HH TT, OHT, man.. it's hard to keep up with so many abbreviations sometimes lmaob:embarrass

And like i said, I could have been a lucky shot cause i didn't time my moment right, either way it was just an aspect of what i expierenced what i found was one of "set backs" in using Amp where i didn't use it before.

In regards to your reply to my question what Amp makes you benefit, yes i can see how killing a boss faster makes you use less recources when healing at a high hp boss.
What i dont get is that, and also what my husband is questioning, if it is only a few minutes what difference does it make when your Spam healing with IH. Maybe 3 or 4 IH's and a chrome ? where you might just as well use more and more spamming, chrome and purify on another boss cause of the tank taking so much damage and curses/ailments.
doesn't that kinda make amping overrated if in comparison with other bosses you have to put more effort in it anyway and thus use even more recources on the long run?
SURE when BBing, zomg that's one hell of a mana drain, geez @.@ d'uhr.

Um... I'm confused... what it is you want to know...? Do you want to calculate your mp usage vs cleric & those of others to see how much you/they save up? b:shocked
Too many variable & conditions lol if you wanna do the calculations be my guest.

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

Or just DD the **** outta the thing and take just as much time but less overall MP usage cause of a tank getting proper heals and spark to keep aggro and the DD's bludgering the poor thing down to nill HP in exactly the same time when using amp.

see, here is where you fail to understand. 20% more damage (25% or 30% as celestial skills later on) is for all squad members. it will speed things alot more for everyone

you are not gonna DD "the **** outta the thing" since you as a veno have gimp damage and the other squad members still dont benefit from anything hence "exactly the same time" has no place here or you fail at math.

its not the time wasted anyway or mp its also he repairs that others paying more since a veno was there just to do nothing. most of the smart players wont invite you for anything else next time so you gonna end up hating the other players and call them fail like aniella does.

tweakz wrote: »

It's nothing compared to sage skills like Parasitic Nova, Amplify Damage, Soul Degeneration, Purge, etc.

maybe it works for you but the demon version of those skills are just plain better in pvp

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

Or just DD the **** outta the thing and take just as much time but less overall MP usage cause of a tank getting proper heals and spark to keep aggro and the DD's bludgering the poor thing down to nill HP in exactly the same time when using amp.

this... doesn't sound quite right, to me.

amp is a percentage-based skill; it makes the target take 20 (or more) % more damage than it otherwise would have, after reductions by armor and resistances.

so let's say you do... eh, i have no experience with venos as high a level as yours, so i'll invent a number... 2000 DPS when you do nothing but DD. that's after the mob's armor has had a chance to reduce the total. you could spend time and MP switching in and out of fox to amp, but you'd be reducing your damage output to, let's make a SWAG here, 750 DPS to do it. plus the 20%, comes out to 900 DPS; less than half what you'd normally do. it's a guesstimate, and likely wrong; how far off does it seem to you?

but that's just you, and if you're the most powerful DD in the squad then you're probably running somebody's low-level FB for them and nobody's at any real risk. more likely, you're squadded with a BM who does 4K DPS and a wiz who does 3.5K, all the time. do your amping and they'll be pumping out 4.8k and 4.2k, respectively, for a total of 9750 DPS (counting your own output) when amped, against 9500 if not amped. and keep in mind, those are numbers i just pulled out of my nether regions; i've heard claims of BMs doing much more damage than that on these forums, i just don't know how common that is. anybody more experienced than i care to offer real examples?

heck, i fox form and amp for my own glacial walker sometimes, if the mob's tough and i'm getting bored. it's a break from the constant venomous-heal spam and it gives me a chance to see if befuddling mist actually does anything at all for me (still not sure about that, incidentally). i haven't timed it enough to know for sure, but i suspect things actually die a bit faster when i do that --- could just be the lesser boredom making things seem quicker, though. at a very minimum i amp whenever i purge; might as well, since purge was probably why i foxed to begin with and fox form will still be in cooldown.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

so let's say you do... eh, i have no experience with venos as high a level as yours, so i'll invent a number... 2000 DPS when you do nothing but DD. that's after the mob's armor has had a chance to reduce the total. you could spend time and MP switching in and out of fox to amp, but you'd be reducing your damage output to, let's make a SWAG here, 750 DPS to do it. plus the 20%, comes out to 900 DPS; less than half what you'd normally do. it's a guesstimate, and likely wrong; how far off does it seem to you?

It's pretty easy to calculate whether or not Amp is worth casting. I'll do it for level 10 Amp playing solo first.

• Start with your DPS. Just yours, not your pet, since the pet continues attacking while you Amp.
• Assume you do nothing but Amp while in Fox Form, so that's 6 sec of DPS lost (worst case).
• With Amp on, the mob has to live long enough for the extra 20% to match 6*DPS.
• That lets you calculate it in hp (instead of time). So of the damage done, 1/6th will be due to Amp (20% of 120% damage).

So if you drop into Fox Form to cast Amp and do nothing else til you can switch back, level 10 Amp is cost-effective if the mob has more than (6*veno_DPS / (1/6)) = (36*veno_DPS) hp remaining. Note that since 36 is longer than the 20 sec duration of Amp, it is never cost-effective to Amp if you're solo and don't have a pet out.

If your pet does as much DPS as you do (you and pet have equal DPS), then you can hit this break-even point in 20 seconds. So by a very convenient coincidence, you can use this as a metric to figure if it's worth using level 10 Amp while solo. If you do more DPS than your pet, then it's not worth Amping while solo. If you do less DPS than your pet, then it's worth it. Assuming of course that the mob lives long enough for Amp to last its full duration.

Ok, but sitting there in Fox Form doing nothing after casting Amp is wasteful. If you cast a heal or do something else useful while waiting for Fox Form to cooldown after Amp, then you're only wasting 2.5-3 sec instead of 6 sec to Amp, so things shift in Amp's favor. In particular, for the case of Amp + heal (assuming your pet needed a heal), you only lose 3*DPS. So it becomes worth it to Amp if the mob has more than (18*veno_DPS) hp remaining. If the mob will live that long, it is always worth it to Amp.

e.g. If your veno does 1500 DPS, it's worth it to Amp if the mob has > 24k (18*1500) hp left, and your squad can do >24k hp damage before Amp expires. Doesn't matter if you're solo or in a squad. That's the magic figure you need to know.

(I should note that you are better off going to Fox Form, casting heal, then casting Amp just before switching back to caster form. That way the first few sec of Amp are not wasted while you are waiting for Fox Form's cooldown.)

So to summarize:
For level 10 Amp (20%), the breakpoints are:
Only Amp in fox form: squad does (36*veno_DPS) hp of damage before Amp expires / mob dies
Heal + Amp in fox form: squad does (18*veno_DPS) hp of damage before Amp expires / mob dies

For Demon Amp (25%), the corresponding breakpoints are:
Only Amp in fox form: squad does (30*veno_DPS) hp of damage before Amp expires / mob dies
Heal + Amp in fox form: squad does (15*veno_DPS) hp of damage before Amp expires / mob dies

For Sage Amp (30%), the corresponding breakpoints are:
Only Amp in fox form: squad does (26*veno_DPS) hp of damage before Amp expires / mob dies
Heal + Amp in fox form: squad does (13*veno_DPS) hp of damage before Amp expires / mob dies

Basically, if you do Heal + Amp, Amp is always worth it on just about any mob in instances and on bosses, regardless of group size or composition. It's just the outdoor mobs where it's sometimes not worth it - the mob will frequently die before you hit the above breakpoints.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Playing a class, you usually get some feedback from your squads, faction and maybe some random people. People saying, youre a good cleric, keeping us alive. Or, nice job tanking Pole. As Veno, I experience that I get little feedback, unless I do something a squad member dont like. Every person have their own taste, and Im interested to know what you think defines a bad Veno?

Is it the high level veno that never bothered to get a herc? The veno that dont give every spark away so she can use some fancy skills herself(its a long cooldown anyway)? Maybe its the one that didnt do like 80% of every other Veno and went Light armor or Heavy instead?

The feedback I got at first would be comments like "nice pulling", "thanks for spark". At later levels Ive become less use for. Barbs decide to use Zeal instead of Veno pulling, and dont need that many sparks anymore. Now the usual comments is "Get out your herc"(Wich I dont have), "Why are you using Heavy armor?". Both are sometimes followed by, "Fail".

This is one part ranting, and one part: What does Venos think define a good or bad veno? What kind of feedback do you get?

A bad veno is one who uses heavy armor, axes, has no magic weapon, no fox form, no amp, no purge, no aoe's. Useless character, never mind veno.

Or, just one who is in a squad and either doesn't adequately know how to play their class to reflect their level, or refuses to listen or pay attention to squad or squad chat.

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lol no man just playing with the comparison and idea of the long run effencienty of using amp, and how that would benefit the cleric. ( or the entire squad for that matter. )

Which makes me wonder..

Use amp on several bosses, and ( probably, just maybe in my case alone -.-;; i dont even care for the overall idea of the MP usage for other veno's ) lose alot of MP by switching back and forth, making me use alot of MP pots/food. leaving less mp and time to DD.

Or just DD the **** outta the thing and take just as much time but less overall MP usage cause of a tank getting proper heals and spark to keep aggro and the DD's bludgering the poor thing down to nill HP in exactly the same time when using amp.

THAT's what i'm trying to get at where people say Amp makes a whole world of a difference at times. where in the second given option i say it would just as well without using amp.

It is true that when you shapeshift into foxform a veno's max mp reduces by 20%... so use up those 20% BEFORE you foxform b:chuckle. A human form Myriad Rainbow already takes up 800 (not a waste, see? you WANT to use up 20% of your max mp as fast as possible) and lvl 10 noxious and lucky scarab + some high mana skills should make it close to it. THEN shapeshift in foxform, you will lost minimal mp due to the shapeshifting.

NOW you have access to your fox skills,AMP, MYRIAD (AOE), PURGE, HEAL change back! (Note that since I am demon I have no access to SAGE Soul Degeneration (-20% max hp), otherwise I will add it in too) now spam skills while AMP cooldowns and repeats above till you have about 20%-30% mp left. NATURE'S GRACE steps in and guess what? You have 80% of mp again! It is regrettable that you did not experiment with this. I appreciate your willingness to try it out but do stick with it a little longer. This can really help you when you spam TT for your equips later.

MYRIAD can have 4 possible random effects, glad that you have already research on it. They are bleed, poison, armor break (-100% phydef), magic break (-100% magdef). Note that the effects are random, sometimes the skill produces no effect at all b:sad) but sometimes multiple effects will happen on the boss. I call this a gambling skill. But when it comes through the effects are tremendous. Couple with a BM's heaven's flames (mobs take 2x damage) you can see the boss's HP plunge just like that. With a high DD (psychic) in the squad (and luck), Brigand and Linus (BH79) were done after first AMP and before cooldowns even finishes.

As a veno, I have the ability to hasten the battle thus reducing squad's repair cost (especially on tanks), pots fees of healers and SAVE TIME in general. So if it is a WIN-WIN, why not do it? A good veno supports the squad, you can do anything you wanna so long as you supports the squad (to kill faster, to survive longer, to reduce cost). A bad veno, well, drags the squad down. Typical actions includes careless aggro, ONLY casting venomous, not knowing how to pull (yes I have seen 90+ venos do that) and wasting precious time in general. AMP alone does not make MUCH of a difference but if combine AMP+ MYRIAD armor breaks+ BM heaven's flames = a lot of damage. b:laugh

Just sharing my 2-cents

Oiishi - Sanctuary wrote: »

It is true that when you shapeshift into foxform a veno's max mp reduces by 20%... so use up those 20% BEFORE you foxform b:chuckle. A human form Myriad Rainbow already takes up 800 (not a waste, see? you WANT to use up 20% of your max mp as fast as possible) and lvl 10 noxious and lucky scarab + some high mana skills should make it close to it. THEN shapeshift in foxform, you will lost minimal mp due to the shapeshifting.

NOW you have access to your fox skills,AMP, MYRIAD (AOE), PURGE, HEAL change back! (Note that since I am demon I have no access to SAGE Soul Degeneration (-20% max hp), otherwise I will add it in too) now spam skills while AMP cooldowns and repeats above till you have about 20%-30% mp left. NATURE'S GRACE steps in and guess what? You have 80% of mp again! It is regrettable that you did not experiment with this. I appreciate your willingness to try it out but do stick with it a little longer. This can really help you when you spam TT for your equips later.

MYRIAD can have 4 possible random effects, glad that you have already research on it. They are bleed, poison, armor break (-100% phydef), magic break (-100% magdef). Note that the effects are random, sometimes the skill produces no effect at all b:sad) but sometimes multiple effects will happen on the boss. I call this a gambling skill. But when it comes through the effects are tremendous. Couple with a BM's heaven's flames (mobs take 2x damage) you can see the boss's HP plunge just like that. With a high DD (psychic) in the squad (and luck), Brigand and Linus (BH79) were done after first AMP and before cooldowns even finishes.

As a veno, I have the ability to hasten the battle thus reducing squad's repair cost (especially on tanks), pots fees of healers and SAVE TIME in general. So if it is a WIN-WIN, why not do it? A good veno supports the squad, you can do anything you wanna so long as you supports the squad (to kill faster, to survive longer, to reduce cost). A bad veno, well, drags the squad down. Typical actions includes careless aggro, ONLY casting venomous, not knowing how to pull (yes I have seen 90+ venos do that) and wasting precious time in general. AMP alone does not make MUCH of a difference but if combine AMP+ MYRIAD armor breaks+ BM heaven's flames = a lot of damage. b:laugh

Just sharing my 2-cents

thank gods there's someone willing to explain in an elaborate fashion instead of just throwing stuff at me. this makes SO much more sense...

I thought a well balanced squad, good DD's and cleric, in my honest opinion would do the same without amp.... =\

& you're in the squad just to look pretty... <.< & not part of the DDs you mentioned...

@LenieClarke: If you can solo Farng, you can certainly solo Florafang--just remember to take out her two little buddies first.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

A bad veno is one who uses heavy armor, axes, has no magic weapon, no fox form, no amp, no purge, no aoe's. Useless character, never mind veno.

Heavy armor venos sometimes are one of the toughest opponents out there in PvP. Don't underestimate them.

I am a 90 veno without a herc or a nix, and I am doing just fine without them. As a tanking pet, I use a armored bear (which I have lvld up).
When I ask to join a frost run, people always ask me if I have a herc and when I answer them they dont need me.
What they don't know is that I can tank just fine with my armored bear. b:victory So I usually just make a squad myself or run it with guildies lols.

What I'm trying to say is that you don't need legendary pets to good. A good veno knows how to be good without legendary pets.

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Heavy armor venos sometimes are one of the toughest opponents out there in PvP. Don't underestimate them.

Why are you quoting me? Sounds like that was meant for someone else.

Bridigan - Sanctuary wrote: »

That would still be silly, though. I'd still want a magic weapon, even if I did use axes some of the time. No point in completely cutting yourself off from most of your skils.

One has to level up at some point, and do things pertaining to squads. What use is an axe veno in RB? FF? Nirvana? Lunar? I also stumbled across, around the same time (stupidity seems to come in bundles) a BM who had swords, no stun skills, no aoe's, and so he just sat there single target hitting on group pulls. Just as useless as that veno from previous post.

And you should re-stat if you can afford the note and stat gear. I did this on my veno at 90, some 6-8 months ago, when it's most plausible cost-wise.