Herc aggro holding vs. the new refining/sharding craze

Annonrae - Sanctuary
Annonrae - Sanctuary Posts: 108 Arc User
edited July 2010 in Venomancer
This is something that has really been bugging me. I've a lvl 79 Veno ( Arcane ) with a lvl 79 Herc, who has Bash 4, which is the highest level Bash one can get at this level ( the next upgrade being at lvl 80? ).

So far, so good. I do fine when I solo. Sure I steal aggro from the Herc every once in a while, especially if the mob is a few levels lower than me, but I've learned to measure my damage to the Herc's pace so I don't go pew pew pew *dead*.

In party? That's a different matter. I've no idea just how much money people are pumping into their refines/shards, but I've recently had it happen several times that people 10+ levels below me yanked aggro off of the Herc... and not just Assassins, but BMs ( of any ilk ) and one time even a darn Cleric. At first I thought Bash wasn't firing correctly, so I started watching the little icon, knowing that sometimes auto-Bash just bugs out. However, that wasn't the case.

I've begun to caution people not to spark if they're somewhere near or especially above my level, to attack only what the Herc is attacking, etc. I haven't had any squad wipes so far, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should even offer or agree to help on bosses anymore, if the Herc is going to tank. Would replacing Bash with Roar even make any sense? Has anyone else noticed this?
Post edited by Annonrae - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • Perikita - Raging Tide
    Perikita - Raging Tide Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I am not sure if replacing Bash with Roar would help. I have Bash on my herc. I usually tell people in squad to wait a bit with DDing until aggro is firmly established - most people seem to know this already. I have no proof for that but I think it's relatively safe after hercs second bash. I had no case of aggro stealing when everyone waited for like 20 seconds or so, while herc was bashing the mob/ boss.

    In cases when DDs start shooting the very moment the herc got to the target, it's really bound to go wrong.
  • Oiishi - Sanctuary
    Oiishi - Sanctuary Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Aggro stealing is bound to happen (esp higher levels) if player does not look out for their damage. If one of the squad members stole aggro from herc AND die... I say they ask for it b:chuckle

    Let them learn how to manage their aggro in a squad. b:laugh
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Oiishi - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Aggro stealing is bound to happen (esp higher levels) if player does not look out for their damage. If one of the squad members stole aggro from herc AND die... I say they ask for it b:chuckle

    Let them learn how to manage their aggro in a squad. b:laugh

    +1

    If players havent learned to control their damage by the time they hit 80, their fault.
    If they havent figured out that hercs arent barbs, their fault.

    you will have more trouble with roar that you do with bash. bash generates a good amount of hate, while roar resets aggro and generates a little hate. roar will work in "oh sh__" situations, but wont work if the other players dont have control over their own damage, or are just trying to see how much damage they can do, which most people love to do. Roar is good for resetting agro, not really regaining it, unless you roar and then bash right after, which for a herc means removing one of the rare skills, so what would you sacrifice to save the stupid? strong? protect? reflect? none of those sound good to me, if you are the second veno having roar on a secondary pet isnt a bad idea, but its no good for a herc. what required you to roar the first time, will probably require it again in a couple of seconds, It will also reduce the functionality as a soloing tool, which is probably one of the main reasons you got a herc in the first place.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Bridigan - Sanctuary
    Bridigan - Sanctuary Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Yeah, probably the best thing you can do is ask everyone to stand back for a bit while the Herc accrues the boss' hatred.

    I wouldn't recommend replacing Bash with Roar; you'll lose Bash's spike damage, and Roar can do more harm than good if your squadmates are unaware of its properties. As far as I know, Roar resets a mob's hate, which means that while it is very good for getting quick aggro, it actually becomes easier for someone else to steal the aggro back if they hit the mob right after Roar has been used.

    <EDIT: Lol, Sasha beat me to it.>
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  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    In many cases the Herc is going to lose aggro no matter what you do.

    When I play my archer, if the boss doesn't AOE, I'll stand within 5m to minimize damage.

    When on the barb, even in humanoid I can steal aggro with regular attacks.


    From squadding with high lvl venos I have learned to let the herc beat the mob a few times. If on archer I'll STA and wait. If on barb I'll spam a few low damage skills first.

    Most DDs want to prove how large their e-peen is and won't hold back no matter what you say. In that case, let 'em die tanking, or failing to tank. They'll learn eventually.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Lvl10XBarb
    Lvl10XArcher
    lvl10XAssassin
  • Lythianaa - Dreamweaver
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Most DDs want to prove how large their e-peen is and won't hold back no matter what you say. In that case, let 'em die tanking, or failing to tank. They'll learn eventually.

    +1 right here.

    No seriously, if they insist on attacking and not letting the herc get some hits in first, forget them. Just let them steal aggro and cause a squad wipe. I've done that plenty of times where someone would continually spark while my herc is tanking and ended up dead. They whined and stuff, but hey, everyone knows who's at fault here.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Katzyn - Sanctuary
    Katzyn - Sanctuary Posts: 1,270 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    My rock pet could keep aggro in solo-TT against my cleric hubby, who was just above me in levels, by using both roar and bash. Very, very rarely, if ever, did he steal aggro, and he's an attack-oreiented cleric, so that's really saying something.

    I dunno what you could do, though, seeing as hpw it would be stupid to replace one of those wonderful, and rare, buffs, with something like roar...I dunno about replacing bash with roar, either. I doubt it would be as effective as just bash alone.
    Katzyn, level 101 Demon Veno
    Kylenea, level 99 Demon Cleric
    ForestSonata, level 6x Mystic
    Proud wifeh of Yudai <3
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  • Vixter - Harshlands
    Vixter - Harshlands Posts: 1,275 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    i know flesh realm has a longer cool down, but is it similar to a barbs bite in aggro-gaining? would it be a better aggro-getter than bash?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vixter (101 Heavy Veno) ~ TT farmer
    Peachie (102 Mystic) ~ Main character
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Vixter - Harshlands wrote: »
    i know flesh realm has a longer cool down, but is it similar to a barbs bite in aggro-gaining? would it be a better aggro-getter than bash?
    Unfortunately, all the veno pet skills seem to generate the same amount of aggro per application. So the quicker cooldown of Bash (and the elemental bashes) makes them the best for aggro.

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=259391
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    now since most DD's have +10 weapons dont hope for any pet to hold agro for more than a few seconds. my herc is just a little extra DD, nothing impressive and not a tank either
  • Annondae - Sanctuary
    Annondae - Sanctuary Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Thanks to everyone for your input. :) I suppose that means standing at max distance in the future and getting ready to run like heck if someone again draws aggro off of the blob.
  • Oiishi - Sanctuary
    Oiishi - Sanctuary Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Unfortunately, all the veno pet skills seem to generate the same amount of aggro per application. So the quicker cooldown of Bash (and the elemental bashes) makes them the best for aggro.

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=259391

    Ooh din know that, very useful to know, thank you for that.
    Annondae - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Thanks to everyone for your input. :) I suppose that means standing at max distance in the future and getting ready to run like heck if someone again draws aggro off of the blob.

    nah don't have to do that b:chuckle let herc keep attacking, when the aggro grabber dies herc will regain the aggro. (Do note cleric have to rez the dead squad member b:laugh)

    tough love but hey someone have to teach them how it goes right? b:pleasedb:pleased
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    kenlee wrote: »
    now since most DD's have +10 weapons dont hope for any pet to hold agro for more than a few seconds. my herc is just a little extra DD, nothing impressive and not a tank either

    So you're going to tank yourself bosses like Blackhole Devourer? If you want some extra DD, just get a starter Scorpion or Dark Wanderer.
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  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Annonrae - Sanctuary wrote: »
    This is something that has really been bugging me. I've a lvl 79 Veno ( Arcane ) with a lvl 79 Herc, who has Bash 4, which is the highest level Bash one can get at this level ( the next upgrade being at lvl 80? ).

    So far, so good. I do fine when I solo. Sure I steal aggro from the Herc every once in a while, especially if the mob is a few levels lower than me, but I've learned to measure my damage to the Herc's pace so I don't go pew pew pew *dead*.

    In party? That's a different matter. I've no idea just how much money people are pumping into their refines/shards, but I've recently had it happen several times that people 10+ levels below me yanked aggro off of the Herc... and not just Assassins, but BMs ( of any ilk ) and one time even a darn Cleric. At first I thought Bash wasn't firing correctly, so I started watching the little icon, knowing that sometimes auto-Bash just bugs out. However, that wasn't the case.

    I've begun to caution people not to spark if they're somewhere near or especially above my level, to attack only what the Herc is attacking, etc. I haven't had any squad wipes so far, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should even offer or agree to help on bosses anymore, if the Herc is going to tank. Would replacing Bash with Roar even make any sense? Has anyone else noticed this?
    On bosses that are not "[?]" level, a herc will have a harder time keeping aggro as players level up. Not only does the prevalence of ub3r cash shop gear make it easier to steal from hercs (not to mention barbs), but things like the teacher +8 atk level blessings and +30 jones blessings will make it miserable for a poor veno thinking they are gonna tank. Being a cleric, you should be ready to heal. Some clerics get spoiled because they can DD, and complain about having to heal when people take aggro from a herc, but that's just the nature of being a cleric, and gotta keep aware.

    On those non level 150 bosses, bash, roar, ream, doesn't matter, a herc won't hold as you get into higher levels.
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    So you're going to tank yourself bosses like Blackhole Devourer? If you want some extra DD, just get a starter Scorpion or Dark Wanderer.
    i was talking more about the other squad members with +10 weapons, remember squad and not solo.
    of course i can tank that from range, doesnt hit hard but will **** my charm and pots. i saw bm's and sins soloing, much faster than i could ever do it. oh and a scorpion unskilled has like the same DPS as herc or even less probably and this not considering reflect in case that herc tank. a scorpion will also get destroyed in like 1 hit if he gets aggro
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    kenlee wrote: »
    i was talking more about the other squad members with +10 weapons, remember squad and not solo.
    of course i can tank that from range, doesnt hit hard but will **** my charm and pots. i saw bm's and sins soloing, much faster than i could ever do it. oh and a scorpion unskilled has like the same DPS as herc or even less probably and this not considering reflect in case that herc tank. a scorpion will also get destroyed in like 1 hit if he gets aggro

    My bad -lacked reading comprehension there. -Sorry. The 5aps BMs can hold aggro from skilled Scorp.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.

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