What define a bad Veno?

I guess it's hard to define what makes a veno good or bad, but maybe I could outline a few.

In my opinion a good veno is one who amps as often as the cooldown allows (unless asked otherwise), who purges appropiately and does the simple job we have, with finesse.

A bad veno. One who reaches level 85 or so and asks what pulling is. That's a bad veno. Not unheard of in this day and age.

I've seen venos do extraordinary things without herc's. And honestly, unless you plan on spending a lot of time soloing bosses and in HH, I don't see the need for one. You're a heavy armored veno, good for you. Stop caring about other people's opinions and play your way. You can still amp, you can still purge. Hell you can even tank yourself and let your pet DD. Who gives a toss? :P

I ought to take my own advice.

Good Venomancers keep the melees brambled, the debuffs going, know how to lure well and which pet to use for certain situations as well as making full use of pet skills (such as debuffs). A good Veno sends out spare sparks to those who may need it since she's been paying attention to which skills her party members have been using.

A good Veno can manage extra mobs (adds) that may have been aggroed and root/stun runners when need be. She knows how to mix up both fox and human forms when the situation calls for them and generally makes life easier for everyone in the party.

A good Venomancer will do all of the above automatically without ever being asked and does not require a Herc to be worth while.

As for bad Venomancers? They seem to be all over these days. They'll lazily send in their pets, standing around often doing nothing or only casting Venomous scarab. They rarely send out sparks unless asked, don't manage adds, don't know how to make use of their pet commands (stop attacking, etc.), do nothing about running mobs, consistently push mobs up the walls (like in FB59) with their pets, stand around getting hit or simply run away if melee mobs attack them when they could have foxed for more survivability.

They also rarely make use of their pet's skills, are painfully slow to adjust to the situation and are good for little more than luring mobs or healing a Herc.

Unfortunately, with the significantly faster leveling these days, bad Venomancers, as well other classes in general, are all over. I think people these days just expect such sub-par ability since most don't know any better.

Feedback-wise, I have received quite a few compliments though most parties are pretty quiet.

No one mentioned copious use of myraid rainbow? I don't know why but I see few venos use it. I mean your already in foxform for amp. I guess mana cost, but its still peanuts compared to clerics mp usage. When that armor break hits in a melee heavy party.....its over fast

a couple others:

--Herc veno: alternating dd, heals AND amp/rainbow while tanking. Anyone can go into
foxform and put a weight on the heal key.

--Extreme poison stacked with amp ALWAYS

--+1 to the use of appropriate pets for the situation:

-My magmite is a better dd than herc and can roar+tough in bad situation to save the
day, when herc would not be able to take agro in time.

-Ranged pet for tough pulls and actually dding on Harpies

--Group pvp, recognizing your pitiful damage and concentrating on support debuffs


I guess it all comes down to always concentrating on performing your role the best you can. If you have time to type during boss fight** your not doing it right.

**leave that to the archers

Good thread idea. I'm leveling a veno now and am learning a great deal about what to do, as well as what not to do. I used to think that playing a veno had to be an easy thing to do... now I know that it's a dance between DD, Tank and healing all at one time.

Well it's seems everyone above me basically went into detail...

but what it all boils down to is if you know how to handle yourself well, in squad and soloing.

Good venos dont always just amp, purge, lure, and pass chi. They also know how to keep themselves alive, and don't take on more than they can handle. I see alot of venos in dungeons, pulling aggro from their pet, just standing there, then dying. I will admit to pulling aggro from my pet, but if it a melee mob, i know i can handle it, if its magic, I'm probably gonna run.

a good veno isnt only the one that spam a few skills like amp and chi or whatever. when i did FC, everyone appreciated more the fact that i spammed nova more than anything else

I two kind of compliments:
- Praises for using amp without getting told to. Seems many venos amps rarely or does it only when they are told.
- Praises about being the only one (or one of few) venos who sparks squad mates on regular basis.

Bad veno is veno who knows only basics of its class... or even worse - knows only basics of the game.
Good veno is veno who knows capabilities of it's class and tries to get most out of it. Using all methods and weapons, depending on situation.
I assume that out of this the idea that Herc-venos are bad players came from. Cause to learn full capabilities of a class you need to keep checking borders. Know the saying - what doesn't kill us, that makes us stronger? Herc kinda provides "safety" and often there is no life threatening danger for venomancer, so those venos often have no reason to learn about different tricks to save their lifes. It is like archers and wizards have to steal aggro a lot to learn to control damage. Same for venos. They need to be put in life endangering situations to see how much they can take and to learn what is the best thing to do in cases like that.
Herc-less venos are often forced to learn different veno tricks to survive, be good in squads and be picked from crowd, to be prefered over herc veno, to prove themselves. They also have to learn to play in squads as there are less things they can solo. It already has proved in many QQ topics how herc-veno gets picked over herc-less one, even if herc one is horrible one. Those venos who get herc at really low level lives rather pampered life as big, fat guy takes care of most of their problems.

To be a good veno, you need to get out there and test the limits of character, to see what is the most you can get out of it and later use it all in squads/runs/soloing.

Aren't heavy venos one of top "items" atm? LA veno is considered as bad one ... lol

yea, i dont really care on armor either. ive tried robe and light. to me, robe just isnt my thing ... light is better for me in survivability and the way i play. i havnt tried heavy, didnt really wanna fool around with having to stat around my gear.

Oh I don't know, maybe im fail but I rely on my pet pretty much.
My armor isn't that great yet, hh90 with flawless garnets and I'm vit/arcane build. But I don't think I could randomly tank some mag boss without help.

But saying that, venomancers are all about the pets, its okay to rely on your main weapon, right?

Vixter - Harshlands wrote: »

yea, i dont really care on armor either. ive tried robe and light. to me, robe just isnt my thing ... light is better for me in survivability and the way i play. i havnt tried heavy, didnt really wanna fool around with having to stat around my gear.

Well, first 60 lvls i was arcane, then saw the heavy/robe guide stickied here and took interest in it, but decided it was too much for me atm. So i went LA, and stayed LA from lvl 60-89. By lvl 80, i knew i wanted to be heavy, but waited till 90 to do it.

What deffines a good and a bad veno? Its a hard question, i would say in the end the only bad veno (and count for all classes) r the ones that don't take advice on how to improve ^^.

Things that do not make the difference would be stuff like being HA or LA or if u have a Herc thats just talk from people that know nothing xD.

But some stuff that r definatly good to do on a veno would be:
1) Using Amp, and if two venos syncronizing ur amp so its constantly up.
2) Using Iron Scarab when waitign on Amp to get ready again.
3) Run back behind the squad after a lure (don't have to on all lures but can't hurt)
4) always use pet as extra DD unless its 100% impossible to keep it alive, while DDing urself.
5) Send sparks if ppl need sparks.

Other things that i have been complimented on, but which r less used:
1) Gang-Break: If u run into a situation that would end in a squad wipe, send pet around and take agro on it till the squad got control again. It will fail if the squad starts to aoe in panic xD, and u got a high chance to die =/. Know how many mobs ur pet can hold.

2) Speed lure: If u r good with reading how fast the squad can kill a certain mob, time a new lure so the 2nd mob reach the squad the moment the 1st mob die. Its not easy, it needs timing. When u got used to the timing (it vary from squad to squad, and from mob to mob) learn to send pet after the new mob WITHOUT breaking your own DDing on the 1st mob.

3) 2-1 Heals: Simple. 2 venos healing 1 pet, often for tanking. Of cause can also be done with 3, 4 etc venos. A tip is to again syncronize so the heals don't fall at the same time, cuz then u lost the wished effected with ofter healing.

4) 1-2 Heals: The opposite. Acctually don't knwo if its usefull but fun =P. 1 veno healing two pets, last veno going full DD. if luring is needed then the DD-veno lure - stove - recall - send pet back to attack. Heal-veno catch the lure and change heal target depending on which pet take dmg.

Last two im still training, and they r alot about placement.

Just remember that a Herc-veno can be just as big a bad veno as a frog-veno what do i know. Personally i don't even got a proper tank, im more into the pulling.

HA/LA vs AA: YES AA is the most normal, but nobody who have read the fox-skill-tree can deny that Mag-weapon suck with the fox-skills ... Its just a strange class.
HA and LA make so much better use of the fox-skill-tree but worse use of the human-skill-tree, which do contain more attackskills.

HA/LA becomes a fail build as soon as u try to play ur veno as if it was a AA veno. Its a totally differend play style!

HA is not more fail than AA, both can't get the max out of both trees at once end of story, then ppl can say what they want.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

a valo-what? hm. this? seems interesting, but what did you use before level 48? i'll assume you at least got familiar with the golems before you could tame your tauroc, correct? if so, and you still went with the valorian, you likely knew what you were doing. hey, maybe i'll try it myself when i get the levels for it...

Nope, The one i used was the Shikou Valorian.This.
The giant rocks Tamable in the FB/BH 59 area leading up to Gluttonix.
That's the Tank-pet i've been using after i got the lvl for it and i indeed notice my Darkwanderer didn't quite cut it anymore against the more tougher bosses.

And yeah, I have only -had- a glacial walker for maybe a week, to at least give it a try and see for myself what the fuss was all about.
But by then i had already reached lv. 80 and i could afford myself the Armoured Bear.
Beside that, i didn't feel like grind-lvling the damn thing in the world map nor the cube.
i had indeed managed myself this long without it, what was the point ?

queenfate wrote: »

As far as skills, I look at it this way.. if you have it USE IT!!!! I helped out with an fb29 the other day, even though the tank was more than capable of killing it, I amped just to make it go by quicker. One of the squad members was amazed.. said "WTG veno," I asked them what I did and they said "Don't see many veno's amp." That is just kind of sad, even if you aren't end game foxform amp is your friend on bosses and I even use it on mag resist mobs to help my pet kill it faster. My husband does not even play this game and he understand how that can be useful. b:chuckle

In every game I play, I take my time to lvl and learn the game. Every class has their good players and their bad. Yes this is just a game, but remember, as far as squads, what you do effects other people. So in my opinion you should do your best to do your part.

Whether you got it doesn't always mean it's appreciated, I've been in MANY BH's and as a good teamplayer, brambled every damn player i had in my squad ( till i learned about NEVER ever brambling the cleric and -ask- the Assassins they wanted it or not, lmao )
But i even had oh so many barbs in my squad sighing and grumbling at the fact i had brambled them. b:lipcurl
So many times it happened, and now i just simply ask when ever i'm in a BH.

Amp or no amp, it still comes down to how your tank handles the boss and your teamplayers go about DD-ing.
Just yesterday i ran an FB59 with a lvl 100 wizzy, The bugger died 3 times even though he had 2 clerics with him watching his ****.
Instead I had to cover for him and managed myself without dieing and without heals long enough so the clerics could rez and keep the lower lv. players alive.
Conclusion ?

Higher Lvl isn't always "WIN". in comparison i'd say this guy was pretty fail if you consider his lvl was 2 times higher than the mobs he was fighting and simply barged in thinking he got the power to take them all down in one hit.
There's something called biting off more than you can chew.
this was just plain and simple, him being a lazy bum and **** around on someone's fb seeing how far he could go.
or he actually didn't understand what he needed to do at all. ... Either way...Shame

I couldn't agree more with the majority of the posts in here.

I've been around for a little more than a year and only used oracles to level from 84 to 85 lol. I hate seeing some of the venomancers who are in squads with me now-a-days because they ask how to pull, when I bank they insist that I split by cost (back when I started it was the proper thing to divide by the squad's needs), they forget to bramble constantly, don't know how to use their pet skills or even their own skills, and they're extremely cocky. It's hard to find a good player anymore.

Good venos don't need a herc to prove that they're a worthy opponent or a "good veno". A good player will know how to get by without one.

Aeyris - Sanctuary wrote: »

Good venos don't need a herc to prove that they're a worthy opponent or a "good veno". A good player will know how to get by without one.

Geez. So wrong.

Thing is, probably any pet can tank normal monsters; nobody needs a herc for that. When it comes to bosses, however... sure, I know how to "get by" without a herc, I simply don't do bosses. Unless they are a huge amount levels below me.

The pet IS the core. Give the veno a better pet and you get a better veno. Give it a standard pet and you get a standard veno.

Sure, things are easier in parties since there might be a much better tank and even damage reduction skills around. But relatively speaking it's still the same, except that people shift towards DD pets rather than tanking (I don't even look at the damage potential of a pet. Pet slots are not that easy to come by, so each and everyone is for tanking).

Of course, in retrospective, the whole tanking thing seems rather useless --- but all I had was guides, and PW guides seem to be particulary bad at stating the game-relevant facts. If bosses crush my Magmite without even looking, they would obviously do the same to any DD-oriented pet as well. However, unless it's some extremely squishy pet, DD pets should be able to tank normal monsters just as well --- so there's really no reason for a tank pet :-(

Now, people keep insisting that Venos can solo bosses and farm dungeons --- so we are talking Herc again. Glacial Walker stats are not THAT different from a Magmite to explain this. A Magmite obviously can't do these things, not even at levels where I'm waaaaay into the drop penalty, so adding a Herc to a Veno opens up a whole new branch of possibilities. Tell me again that having a Herc doesn't improve anything.

Just because people that spend money to buy levels have Hercs doesn't make the Herc an average pet. And gameplay does look quite different for "rich" people --- I've been farming Fungus for a long time, just recently completed the 100. Used Carrion Vultures for that --- and there's Huggy Hares on the ground, tons of them. I've seen more than one guy using a Herc, and a lot of these seem to have equipment way beyond anything I could even dream of as well --- they don't even care about aggro, drawing aggro from multiple Hares on themselves to speed up things. I still take considerable damage from these, so I wouldn't even consider this if I was in a hurry.

Same thing, basically. Having a Herc means that one way or another you have a pile of money at your disposal. So why would a Herc user run around with bad or even average gear? The Herc is just the most obvious aspect to see, but these people pack incredible defense and probably tons of attack power and speed and whatever as well. As far as random parties of strangers go, the idea that someone dealing more damage is the better choice seems rather obvious, as well as the idea that having another tank around isn't such a bad thing at all.

As far as skills go, this is pretty much irrelevant. I don't have Purge or Amplify --- if the numbers on Ecatomb are correct I could just buy both of them up to lvl 10, although I would have to rearrange shortcuts a bit. Outside of parties they appear pretty useless to me: Amplify only increases damage which doesn't help at all vs bosses, Purge takes too long to use and it doesn't really matter whether the boss kills my pet because he has a buff on him or because I stopped healspamming to purge him :-) Dead pet = dead pet = dead me, doesn't really matter what started it. Unfortunately, Venomancers don't seem to have any skills to help the pet... which, of course, is AGAIN in favor of Hercs since they don't need that much help.

So, no matter how I look at it... how is a Herc NOT a great improvement for a pet-using Venomancer?