Negatives and positives to the Dungeon timer

Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear
Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear Posts: 798 Arc User
edited June 2010 in General Discussion
Positive: Frostland can no longer be saved for quicker exp to those with more powerful or numerous computers.

Positive: TT can no longer be saved to the advantage of only those with more powerful or numerous computers

Negative: Lunar still costs 3 mil per time accessing it and the drop rate was nerfed to an unreasonably low rate midway through the first double drop event after the new version was released

Negative: Unskilled squads will often take longer than 4 hours to complete 3-2, 3-3, Lunar or Frost

Positive: Due to inability to save TT instances, Ultimate Substance prices will increase again

Positive: Due to the necessity of doing Full TT runs now, 99 gold mat prices will go back up

Positive: FB runs can no longer be saved for Summonobot kills so mystical tome fragment prices will increase

Negative: A full Rebirth can occasionally border on taking 4 hours when including lower level Rebirths, some of these groups are relatively screwed (the maximum time a rebirth can take without failing is 4hrs 18 minutes)

Negative: When doing an "at level" fb 39, 51, 59, or 69, it is entirely possible that the runs take 5-6 hours (it happened to me many times back in the day)

Negative: Nirvana now requires at least one Venomancer, Fist BM, or Assassin to complete within the 4 hour time limit

Negative/Positive: Nirvana can still be done with a limited numbers group that includes a venomancer and Fist BM if others are willing to use their keys to help open

How to fix the Negatives while still maintaining the intended positives:
1. Change the timer to 8 hours to encompass "fail squad" completion of dungeons while still limiting or removing the function of "saving runs"

2. Reduce/change the cost of Lunar runs to either 1m-1.5m or 10 Essences of Nature, or have Lunar Glade on a permanent 1.5-2x droprate
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Post edited by Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear on

Comments

  • Alasen - Heavens Tear
    Alasen - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,874 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    already a thread concerning this..... http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=758552&page=34
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Okay newb question here, but, what's the benefit of "saving" FF and TT instances? If the bosses are dead, where's the advantage?

    Most of what you, say I agree with... just wondering. :P

    EDIT: Ok nvm... so the bosses DO respawn? Eventually? Is that it? XD
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  • Rillien - Heavens Tear
    Rillien - Heavens Tear Posts: 569 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    ^^Yes, they respawn after 20ish hours.
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Negative: Nirvana now requires at least one Venomancer, Fist BM, or Assassin to complete within the 4 hour time limit

    I am pretty sure that I completed a nirv under 1 hour with no sin/veno and a low dmg claw bm (lower then a bow archer).
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  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Okay newb question here, but, what's the benefit of "saving" FF and TT instances? If the bosses are dead, where's the advantage?

    Most of what you, say I agree with... just wondering. :P

    EDIT: Ok nvm... so the bosses DO respawn? Eventually? Is that it? XD
    benefits lazy pple
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  • Maiya - Lost City
    Maiya - Lost City Posts: 2,686 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Negative: They don't show you a timer to see how much you have left. At least I didn't see one when doing my BH100 today.
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  • Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear
    Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear Posts: 798 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    timer pops up every 30 minutes from what I've seen inside the little tiny box.
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  • Sabatier - Raging Tide
    Sabatier - Raging Tide Posts: 212 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Positive: Nirvana now requires at least one Venomancer, Fist BM, or Assassin to complete within the 4 hour time limit

    Fixed part of your post.

    Can't see how this is a negative
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  • Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear
    Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear Posts: 798 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I am pretty sure that I completed a nirv under 1 hour with no sin/veno and a low dmg claw bm (lower then a bow archer).

    Eh, I had a run with 3 wizards(+7-+10), myself, a barb, and a cleric take 4hrs 38 mins. So, eh, maybe we all just sucked.
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  • Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear
    Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear Posts: 798 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Sabatier - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Fixed part of your post.

    Can't see how this is a negative

    It's a negative because it further limits the types of players who can do the runs, because of the power of fist bms, I'm actually on the verge of power leveling yet another character simply to be able to do things faster. PvE balance is horrid with the fist bm factor at present...
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  • Lyritha - Heavens Tear
    Lyritha - Heavens Tear Posts: 447 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    there is no way Nirvana can take 4 hours.... if you take 4 hours in Nirvana exit to windows and uninstall the game.
  • MsVixxxen - Heavens Tear
    MsVixxxen - Heavens Tear Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Rillien - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    ^^Yes, they respawn after 20ish hours.

    Yeah TT bosses are 22 hours (mobs in TT 12 hours though).
    FB 51/69/78/89 bosses are 12 hours respawns (59 never respawns bosses, just mobs)
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  • Yarly - Harshlands
    Yarly - Harshlands Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    If you cant finish some of these instances in 4 hours, the time limit is doing you a favor by kicking you out. b:chuckle
  • Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear
    Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear Posts: 798 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Yarly - Harshlands wrote: »
    If you cant finish some of these instances in 4 hours, the time limit is doing you a favor by kicking you out. b:chuckle

    Personally, I'd agree, if they implemented this update 6 months ago... Now however there's a wad of failed 100+ characters (possibly myself included) who don't know what they're doing, how to play their class, how to damage the most effectively, etc. Many players will be going into 3-3 without any coaching from those of us with a year of experience or more under our belts and will be running around the instance like a headless chicken, which easily leads to a much longer than 4 hour instance, especially if they're in smaller guilds and don't have a plethora of other high leveled players to bring with them. I remember the first 3-3 I did with the second 95 on the server, myself as a 90 cleric, a 91 barb, and several 80s dds... Those not in larger guilds or good at networking friends will likely end up in a similar situation on their first runs... Which yes, these runs may easily take upwards of 6 hours to complete, especially if they decide to clear out the theater to get to collosseast or something of that sort.

    4 hours instances limits these sorts of runs to only the knowledgeable or over-geared. While I agree with the limiting of dungeon time to prevent run-saving, the limitation at present also removes the ability of the casual player from exploration and learn-at-your-own-pace type experience of these dungeons. While my earlier suggestion of 8 hour time limit may not fully cover these players either, it more effectively encompasses them and their freedom to enjoy the game in a non-competitive type playstyle.
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  • MsVixxxen - Heavens Tear
    MsVixxxen - Heavens Tear Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    What they should have done, instead of implementing a time period for the run, is change the code so that the bosses dont respawn at all.

    Seems like an easier fix.
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  • Yarly - Harshlands
    Yarly - Harshlands Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Personally, I'd agree, if they implemented this update 6 months ago... Now however there's a wad of failed 100+ characters (possibly myself included) who don't know what they're doing, how to play their class, how to damage the most effectively, etc. Many players will be going into 3-3 without any coaching from those of us with a year of experience or more under our belts and will be running around the instance like a headless chicken, which easily leads to a much longer than 4 hour instance, especially if they're in smaller guilds and don't have a plethora of other high leveled players to bring with them. I remember the first 3-3 I did with the second 95 on the server, myself as a 90 cleric, a 91 barb, and several 80s dds... Those not in larger guilds or good at networking friends will likely end up in a similar situation on their first runs... Which yes, these runs may easily take upwards of 6 hours to complete, especially if they decide to clear out the theater to get to collosseast or something of that sort.

    4 hours instances limits these sorts of runs to only the knowledgeable or over-geared. While I agree with the limiting of dungeon time to prevent run-saving, the limitation at present also removes the ability of the casual player from exploration and learn-at-your-own-pace type experience of these dungeons. While my earlier suggestion of 8 hour time limit may not fully cover these players either, it more effectively encompasses them and their freedom to enjoy the game in a non-competitive type playstyle.

    It was implemented too late like you said. All this QQ'n about it is proof.
  • Alasen - Heavens Tear
    Alasen - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,874 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    All this QQ'ing? jesus christ doesn ANYONE in this game talk like the adult they are? I KNOW there are some adults.... (most my faction are...).

    But anyway.. Yarly..... there's also those of us venos that like to go solo a TT or FB (and kill everything while we're in there) or something WHILE we watch tv, little breaks here and there, break for dinner, or unexpected breaks like having to run errands. We'd like to be able to come back to the instance w/o having been booted..... or fniish it b4 so.

    Btw there's already a 36+ page thread on this.. why are we starting another one? o ya.. people can't read b4 they start a thread.
  • LenieClarke - Heavens Tear
    LenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    What they should have done, instead of implementing a time period for the run, is change the code so that the bosses dont respawn at all.

    Seems like an easier fix.

    YES! that! amen!

    i've been scratching my head wondering why they ever made bosses respawn at all, in the first place, much less why they didn't just stop them from doing so. who cares how long someone is in an instance, compared to what they're finding in it?
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  • FoxRunning - Heavens Tear
    FoxRunning - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    this is going to be a disaster for all but the most skilled and high leveled players that are used to playing together as a squad. and even those, i dont know how they will be able to do the long ones like FF. the leaders of my guild were talking about how many hours it took to do FF, and how exhausting it was. and the last time i ran TT 1-2, when we got to the last two bosses, it took forever because we had one player who kept making these suicidal rushes at the boss, with the result being multi party wipes. i know that that run was on its 4th hour when i stepped out so a second barb could be added to do the last boss. so what is going to happen to players like us? we hit the 4 hour mark, and the damn game throws us out of the TT, just like that, just because some dev got the bright idea to cut us out?


    this is one of the most FAIL notions you guys have come up with so far.

    PLEASE reverse this as soon as possible.
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  • Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear
    Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear Posts: 798 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Alasen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Btw there's already a 36+ page thread on this.. why are we starting another one? o ya.. people can't read b4 they start a thread.

    I read that thread, it's about all the points of the update, this one is only about the dungeon timer, which as a whole was the only flaw in the update, while the concept is on the right path, the quantitative value of the concept (4hrs) is overkill on the function, which is what this thread is about, rebalancing the update.

    Another thing this update interferes with is the argument to return the old format of frostland or a more gear/material designed version rather than the current exp monkey design for frost, though ignore this sentence as it kinda derails the thread.
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  • Yarly - Harshlands
    Yarly - Harshlands Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Alasen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    All this QQ'ing? jesus christ doesn ANYONE in this game talk like the adult they are? I KNOW there are some adults.... (most my faction are...).

    But anyway.. Yarly..... there's also those of us venos that like to go solo a TT or FB (and kill everything while we're in there) or something WHILE we watch tv, little breaks here and there, break for dinner, or unexpected breaks like having to run errands. We'd like to be able to come back to the instance w/o having been booted..... or fniish it b4 so.

    Btw there's already a 36+ page thread on this.. why are we starting another one? o ya.. people can't read b4 they start a thread.

    I used to do squad hard mode TT's on my veno alone (and now on my sin), but I still think that the GMs meant to change this. The instance requires you to have 4+ members in the party for a reason. This patch affects me too, but I see it as a fix to many exploits that were not originally intended by the developers.

    Its a good change and you know it.

    Most TT's you can still solo in 4 hours anyway.
  • konariraiden
    konariraiden Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Closing thread that has another thread up already.
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