So - how do I squad with you guys now?

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Ok so. I asked this a while back, but that was before you got your 59+ skills.

You've now got them. And I know nothing about you.

So, and so.

What do I expect from you in a squad? What do you NEED in a squad?
What can I do, for us to work together well and all succeed?

The previous thread ended, more or less, in the conclusion that I should treat you like a slightly-squishy Blademaster. Does that still hold? Does your demon or sageness make a difference?

Somebody - Raging Tide · June 2010

so far not really in my case, i've become a lot worse though on the aggro stealing buts that aside. nothing has changed much i think

Evict - Heavens Tear · June 2010

Depends what instance you're talking about. In a BH run, a sin is just another DD. A high lvl (say 80+), will be independent of the squad throughout most of the run, relying on pots and Bloodpaint.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Depends what instance you're talking about. In a BH run, a sin is just another DD.

Well, in any instance. hat do you guys do that's different?
Do you still want brambling?

Is your attack-rate debuff hugely important and would you take offence if I asked you to not use it because it's making the brambles work less well?

wnight · June 2010

all said above can clearly seen comes from Oracle noobs(refering to Evict and Somebody) who never "trully" played their chars up to their current stateb:chuckle

I played mine all the way up running lots of BH's and different squads runs. From my expirience getting 2 AoE skills and keeping them up to date really gives an edge in party and make those runs real fun.

I have no problem of managing damage control even if barb 9levels lower. CoD is really good skill which should be raised to lvl 3-4 in order to make same attack rate with tank.

P.S i admin that i'm lower lvl from speekers above (only lvl 87)but it as i mentioned before i'm playing my char and not rushing into oblivion b:victory

Evict - Heavens Tear · June 2010

wnight wrote: »

all said above can clearly seen comes from Oracle noobs(refering to Evict and Somebody) who never "trully" played their chars up to their current stateb:chuckle

I've played Assassin since the day they were released and have used ≤30 oracles since lvl 30, and that was to gain the small amount of exp I was missing to gain a lvl. L2Informations before you accuse anyone of anything. b:bye

wnight wrote: »

I played mine all the way up running lots of BH's and different squads runs. From my expirience getting 2 AoE skills and keeping them up to date really gives an edge in party and make those runs real fun.

So far, the only BH instance I've run that required zhenning is Brimstone Pit, but you wouldn't know about that. b:chuckle AoEs are otherwise only useful for AoE grinding and FF, unless you want Subsea Strike's amp effect.

wnight wrote: »

I have no problem of managing damage control even if barb 9levels lower. CoD is really good skill which should be raised to lvl 3-4 in order to make same attack rate with tank.

If you can't regulate damage output and control aggro via Stealth, CoD is for you.

wnight wrote: »

P.S i admin that i'm lower lvl from speekers above (only lvl 87)but it as i mentioned before i'm playing my char and not rushing into oblivion

wnight wrote: »

P.S i admin that i'm lower lvl from speekers above (only lvl 87)

wnight wrote: »

(only lvl 87)

tl;dr I don't oracle, AoEs on bosses = pointless, CoD ≠ pr0aggr0c0ntr0l, you're an illiterate noob. b:victory

TaiFeng - Sanctuary · June 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well, in any instance. hat do you guys do that's different?
Do you still want brambling? I find bramble useful for most of the run, though it's unnecessary to have it for the bosses in most cases.

Is your attack-rate debuff hugely important and would you take offence if I asked you to not use it because it's making the brambles work less well? Aside from a herc's reflect, I feel I need to say that the advantage of the rib strike effect far outweighs the advantage of bramble for a boss tank.

wnight wrote: »

all said above can clearly seen comes from Oracle noobs(refering to Evict and Somebody) who never "trully" played their chars up to their current stateb:chuckle

I played mine all the way up running lots of BH's and different squads runs. From my expirience getting 2 AoE skills and keeping them up to date really gives an edge in party and make those runs real fun. There are much more valuable assassin skills in a squad than aoes, and although subsea strike makes a decent support aoe because of the amp damage effect, in most cases aoeing should be left to the BM and barb in a BH run. It is much more useful for a sin to play as a controller, stunning mobs with sacrificial strike or taking out extras that head for the squishies that pull aggro.

I have no problem of managing damage control even if barb 9levels lower. CoD is really good skill which should be raised to lvl 3-4 in order to make same attack rate with tank. You do not need to use Chill of the Deep to manage aggro control. In addition to that, level 3-4 CotD gives you a much lower attack rate than the tank, not an equal one.

P.S i admin that i'm lower lvl from speekers above (only lvl 87)but it as i mentioned before i'm playing my char and not rushing into oblivion b:victory

While I understand oracle hatred, and it also bothers me when people oracle 80+ levels of their character, you should not assume that not doing so automatically gives you the ultimate understanding of the character. We all must take the time to learn if we wish to play well, so if you want to run your mouth off at other people about the way they play, make sure that arrogance is able to be backed up.

ACLucius - Archosaur · June 2010

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well, in any instance. hat do you guys do that's different?
Do you still want brambling?

Is your attack-rate debuff hugely important and would you take offence if I asked you to not use it because it's making the brambles work less well?

Yes, still bramble us. As Evict said, we will be independent, attacking our own mob many times, and the extra damage always helps.

However, as for Rib Strike, the attack rate decrease is more important than the extra damage from bramble. The reason is because at level 10, it is a 50% reduction, and 65% in Demon. This cuts down the repair bill of the tank dramatically. The only time you should request it is if your pet is tanking, assuming it has some kind of reflect skill. Otherwise, it is far better to just let use put the debuff on to save the tank some money, as well as try to prevent a squad wipe by decreasing the overall DPS of the boss.

As far as how should we be treated in squads? If you go back to my post, which was in your other thread like this, it is pretty much the same. Any further difference in our skills due to Sage/Demon or the new skills is pretty much going to keep our jobs the same as before.

wnight wrote: »

all said above can clearly seen comes from Oracle noobs(refering to Evict and Somebody) who never "trully" played their chars up to their current stateb:chuckle

I played mine all the way up running lots of BH's and different squads runs. From my expirience getting 2 AoE skills and keeping them up to date really gives an edge in party and make those runs real fun.

I have no problem of managing damage control even if barb 9levels lower. CoD is really good skill which should be raised to lvl 3-4 in order to make same attack rate with tank.

P.S i admin that i'm lower lvl from speekers above (only lvl 87)but it as i mentioned before i'm playing my char and not rushing into oblivion b:victory

As for you, go back and repeat levels 40-87. What both of them said is true. The AoE's we have are not going to do as much for the party as it will if we just kill our own mob. We have more than enough disabling skills and chi gaining skills that we should never need help on a mob in a BH. On two, maybe if you will need help if your gear sucks. On three, you might if you don't know how to use your skills and pots/genie. On four, you probably will need help if you aren't charmed and the above comments are true as well.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Yeah, I'm looking at it from pet-tanking, where reflect is my main way of holding aggro and also a big damage boost.

I'll add one thing that I do know - you guys have some awesome duration freeze and stun skills, which are wonderful when I'm luring. More of you guys need to know to use those.

But ok - treat you as a BM, assume that you'll be DDing as a secondary tank during the normal mobs and adding damage to the boss, and basically leave you to do your own thing, refreshing bramble as needed.

And you've got AOEs, so gather as many bosses together as possible so that you can do your thing.

_Leif - Lost City · June 2010

I'm usually the one catching the veno lures via Tackling Slash (immobilize). Sidenote: if you want to throatcut, do it immediately after tackling slash. If you throatcut a mob that isn't immoblized, it runs away -.-

When there is aoeing involved, we do rock. Spark + subsea + earthen allow us to deal more than our fair share of damage, I generally combo that with the genie move tangling mire to maximize both my debuffing and damage. We do tend to steal aggro tho on big pulls (i can think of 3-4 times i've died in FC from this), so nova is an extremely nice thing to use as we do subsea.

For managing aggro on bosses: If you're not comfortable using the the stealth trick, carry a low level set of daggers with you so you can at least debuff the boss at the very start of the fight. I still have my lvl 1 Bone Razors that I got when I started the game that I use whenever I'm doing pole for BH.

Please bramble us.

If there's anything involving stun chaining a mob (frost bishops) or killing an add-on mob (3rd frost boss that spawns dragons), we do that.

Islamey - Dreamweaver · June 2010

In addition to that, level 3-4 CotD gives you a much lower attack rate than the tank, not an equal one.

lvl 3 CotD is 0.77 attack rate i believe :P. And it still raises your attack level so if you crit you'll still aggro.

There are much more valuable assassin skills in a squad than aoes, and although subsea strike makes a decent support aoe because of the amp damage effect,

The assassin has so many chii gain skills, that it can do both AoE amps and control quite easily.

TaiFeng - Sanctuary · June 2010

Islamey - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lvl 3 CotD is 0.77 attack rate i believe :P. And it still raises your attack level so if you crit you'll still aggro.

Well if you're right about this one then you're right, depending on crits. Though I still say there's a significant difference between .77 and .91.

The assassin has so many chii gain skills, that it can do both AoE amps and control quite easily.

As for chi gain skills and using subsea strike with other attacks, I agree with you, but what I was pointing out was that it's not what I would consider a primary function of the assassin to aoe tank a bunch of mobs. Even though the cooldown of earthen rift is only 8 seconds, a bm makes a much better primary aoer.

Yarly - Harshlands · June 2010

We are squishy, but not very. They receive larger hits than bms, but from what I've seen, they are alot harder to take down.

At least 80% of the bh's and other instances that I do now, I take on the role as boss tank, even if there is a barb in the squad. Do not be surprised if some squads will have the assassin tank bosses so the rest of the DD's like wiz, psych, fists, and archers can let all hell loose. Its not "Can this guy tank this boss and hold agro?" like before, now its "How many seconds will it take to kill this boss?".

No need for a cleric to cancel boss magic attacks, purify, or even stack heals like at lower levels. Literally, there are some instances there is no need for a cleric at all. Ask the 5aps sins out there that solo their s***. And I heard Kylin finished a Nirvana in less than 8 minutes with only bms and sins. And that second to last FC boss that debuffs, I tanked that at 90 on my sin (with a cleric ofc).

In my opinion, you should always bramble assassins in your squad. Hopefully by now, they know how not to take agro when they shouldnt have it, and how to tank when they should. I'm sure you dont care about how we do it or what skills we use. All you want to know is that 9-10x sins (demon or sage) can handle being brambled.

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · June 2010

Sadly there is still a fair amount of nubishness present when performing runs with random people that do exactly what they are named for and that is oracle and hyper noobing.

You bring up a very valid point on the end of rib strike with the hercs bramble being a 30-40% gain of it's threat level. When I run and the veno wants to tank the bosses, I just watch to see what kind I'm running with, ex: are they the kind that wants to be casting as much as possible, or the kind that doesn't mind holding down the heal key for the majority of the duration.

As of late though I've noticed so many sins that absolutely fail to even consider using rib strike to slow a boss, missing it every now and again during a DD chain setup is one thing, but to disregard it entirely when you're barb is already QQing about repairs = fail sin. It's one of our primary skills to assist the party against a boss and our job to know when it should and shouldn't be on.

If you feel the need to ask that it not be used, then feel fine to do so, just saves me mp and time that could be used towards more DDing.

Bramble, personally I love it, especially demon bram. If you're running an FF squad set up with ex: 97 barb, 92 cleric, 98bm, 94 sin, 99wiz, and yourself(veno) then by all means make sure that bramble is on the bm and sin during the large pulls.
With the sin only having spike aoe dmg generally in the groupings they're only going to have aggro for a sec or two anyway and it's time that the bm is not being interrupted during HF and the wiz is not being tagged while setting up a constant AoE which will draw aggro if the squad mispreps it's aoe setup.

So - how do I squad with you guys now?

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