bring back 2x

I didn't say mirages are "enough" for refining, I said refining would be cheaper, because mirages would be cheaper. That's not an opinion. :P

Cheaper TT mats doesn't make refining more expensive, it just cuts your income from selling TT mats to players. But I already outlined what that actually means if you look at the big picture.

EDIT: And Rawrgh, as far as prices not going back up, you do realize players set the prices right? Not devs or GMs (aka NPC prices) right?

If people find the mats that worth, or maybe there's no demand for them. No demand means you compete with other people who run TT like you, while having few that want to buy. So basically, you want "exclusivity" for being only one of the few who has TT mats, and others buy from you. That's when prices would go up. That's what you want.

And I disagree thinking you're selfish that's all :P

There is no "fixed magical price" it's just what players are willing to sell at and buy at.

Yes because double drops FLOODS THE MARKET, so that when the event ends, people who do the same amount of work get LESS.


You veiw it as: "well I get my mats for cheaper so it's obviously a good thing" which is the most idiotic statement I've ever heard.




And weren't you the one that said merchanting should be removed since it doesn't increase the GNP or something like that?

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

I never said anything about merchanting (in this thread I mean).

*snip* blah blah blah *snip*

As much as people despise the "greedy gold sellers" that "sell gold for insane prices", remember, you are similar in this aspect. Just replace "gold" with "TT mats" and that's it. If you despise a gold seller for defending his arguments for expensive gold, then that same argument can be used against your "TT mat" selling.

Wow.. you contradict yourself so much it's just a riot.

You love 2x drops, but you hate the gold price. You think the price of mirages plays any significance in refining, even without orbs. You have an insane hatred of merchanters yet 2x robs only the mid to high levels of their only real source of income in the game. You think that when mat prices were high people were getting ripped off and people never got their gear until 2x drops. You're insane.

Either way, someone will be pissed. But in this case, at least more people can get their gear. With gold, though, you have to charge zen to get it. No way around that one

The last 300+ gold I used was farmed without spending a real dollar. I guess that's what you're against, you want everyone who wants something in the boutique to actually have to spend real money. Well, good thing I won't have to unless I want to. You, however, will have no choice. There's no way left for you to make coin except to charge real money or beg for a coin giveaway quest. lol Oh, you could merchant, but the thought of merchanting drives you nuts. lol

I'm pretty convinced that you're playing devils advocate for fun... at this point, I'd feel really sorry for you if you're really not trolling.

Obviously this game isn't easy enough for you and you are the one who really doesn't see the bigger picture. I've read enough of your garbage, I've come to a conclusion on your overall message over the past several weeks. This is an analysis of your philosophy:

Minimum wage is good because you would be ripping people off if you were paid more, slave labor in sweatshops brings down prices to make it so everyone can have something without being ripped off. You can't make money off selling those items made by slave labor to people making minimum wage because you would be ripping them both off. I want the government to give me more money because I do not make enough.

Yes, I have been paying attention to you since we started 'arguing' (I use that term loosely even though I don't consider it an argument because you're just delusional). Yes, that's really what you've been saying.

Y'know... something occurs to me. I don't care about gold anymore.

It's clear to me that gold will never fall to sane prices again. We have people making threads complaining that they can't sell gold for over 400k when packs aren't in the CS. But for now, at least, it's fairly easy to get your hands on secondhand CS items - assuming you have a decent amount of coin.

Now, my favorite part of the whole "inflation" debate is how the merchants and profiteers are always saying to the average players, "don't tell them to bring back 2x, you're the ones who are going to suffer!" They would have you believe that more money in the economy = more people buying up existing items = fewer items to be sold = inflation. But 2x drops doesn't just increase coins, it increases the number of items available, too. So in theory it should all balance out.

So why are we seeing deflation in TT mats? Because we're seeing more mats appearing. There may also be fewer players who need the mats, too. But probably a bigger factor is the "rush" to do TT runs when 2x is on. These farmers think, "oh man... TT mats are worth X coins... if I farm TT this week, I could make X mil!" So they all do TT, with 2x drops, and tons of mats get created. Result: the TT mat market has become saturated.

And so prices on TT and other mats go down. The last TT run I did was a 3-3, in which I came out with a few green mats... which I ended up NPCing because nobody bought them in the AH at a practically-free price. It's all about the gold mats, now... at least half of the greens are worthless or near-worthless.

Regular TT farmers complain about this. I say, why? Why do you insist on farming instances that are no longer profitable for you, and then just complain about it?

Go back to grinding, already.

Seriously, nobody grinds anymore, even during 2x. I took a mat-farming run through hell yesterday - the entire hell map - and I saw maybe three people. I mean, that's just depressing. But during 2x, it'd be profitable... more so than your average TT run. Why burn your resources - charms, event food, repair bills (in some cases), increased probability of death from mismanaged runs - when you can grind and come out with a more stable profit anyway?

I mean, I can't speak for FF or Lunar - those items are still making a profit, as far as I can tell - but for the TT farmers: accept change. That's about all I can tell you.

Personally, I don't want to do TT for profit if it's all about gold mats. Who gets one, if it drops? A single person? What profit do the other five get, then?

But then, I never did much TT for profit, anyway. I prefer grinding. It's more stable, it's more relaxing. And it's an integral part of any MMO, like it or not (I mean, what've we got in its place for exp? BH? we have enough complaining about how exp is too easy these days).

tl;dr: The inflation argument is bull. Support grinding. Bring back 2x.

n.

Now, my favorite part of the whole "inflation" debate is how the merchants and profiteers are always saying to the average players, "don't tell them to bring back 2x, you're the ones who are going to suffer!" They would have you believe that more money in the economy = more people buying up existing items = fewer items to be sold = inflation. But 2x drops doesn't just increase coins, it increases the number of items available, too. So in theory it should all balance out.

People farming TT doesn't bring money into the economy. And the amount of extra coins brought in by grinding is completely insiginifcant compared to the coins being brought in by TW rewards and 10mil bank notes made by best luck tokens. The problem with x2 drops isn't that the price falls during the event, that's easily countered by the increase in drops, the problem is that once the event ends the prices STAY LOW. So lets say before x2 drops you could get 500k for a dust of devil, well now you're lucky to get 250k ea during double drops, that's fine cause of the increase in mats, but the problem is that once the event ends the price of a dust of devil STAYS at 250kea. So you are doing the same amount of work you did before the double drop, for less reward.



But hey, I don't really care, I just run nein quest and merchant for coins, makes me plenty of money. I can make 5mil in one day if I try and thats nothing compared to what others make. I stopped running TT when it became difficult to sell a forshura's arm for 200k.

BEFORE there was 2x...wait for it...people had to work for their gears? In many case people started farming their gears about 8-10 levels beforehand just to make sure they would have it ready for when they reached ? level.

I wish that was the case, would make things much easier.


Last bounty hunter I did we had a level 96 barb that didn't even have full TT90 yet, was still using 7x mold chest and 7x wrists.

Did an FC with a mage a few days ago. I look at his gear he is a level 86 mage using an unrefined unsharded TT70 magic sword. If I had lead I would have kicked him from the squad.

When I was doing TT I would see DDs using +1 weapons all the time. Sitting at fatalaquia wondering why he's taking so long to die, look at the sins weapon and it's an unrefined 7x mold daggers.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I wish that was the case, would make things much easier.


Last bounty hunter I did we had a level 96 barb that didn't even have full TT90 yet, was still using 7x mold chest and 7x wrists.

Did an FC with a mage a few days ago. I look at his gear he is a level 86 mage using an unrefined unsharded TT70 magic sword. If I had lead I would have kicked him from the squad.

When I was doing TT I would see DDs using +1 weapons all the time. Sitting at fatalaquia wondering why he's taking so long to die, look at the sins weapon and it's an unrefined 7x mold daggers.

^ Exactly...people have gotten lazy imo....

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Oh well, to each their own. I do want 2x drops to come back, but I won't lie and say it's good for the game economy. I just know that I want to +11 my claws and +7 the rest of my gear. It's not gonna happen until another 2x... so lets have it come quickly.

*slaps Michael* b:angry


Side note --> I am indifferent. I farm and make $$ either way.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

When I was 8x my income came from running 2-2 and 3-1. Now you can't earn anything after expenses. I'm glad I did that before double drops, because I would never have been able to afford my 90 gold axes or the refines and shards on my 90 armor.

That's exactly the problem. If I didn't merchant at all, how I'm supposed to get my TT90 gold axes for example? That's right, I'm not supposed to get those unless I charge zen.

Michael_Dark, I have no idea how to tell you this, but your post was full of bull****. Your assumptions about what I said as usual.

1) When did I say it was impossible to get gear without 2x drops? It just makes it friggin easier, wtf is your problem with that?

Why does (1) apply? In normal economy, printing money doesn't really make people richer at all. (by rich I also mean, stuff they have, like gear in the game). But you obviously forget one simple fact: crafting weapons requires a FIXED amount of items. The more mats, the easier it is to obtain gear. It's not player-based, it's a "NPC price" so to speak (where the 'currency' is the mats).

So all 2x would do objectively would make it EASIER to obtain gear. And WTF is wrong with that?
It hurts your income? Well it helps people who buy mats too, less spending for them... are you more important than them or something?

2) And for whoever agreed with you about "farming Gold" let me tell you something here Einstein. SOMEONE FRIGGING CHARGED ZEN FOR THAT GOLD. You did not farm gold. You simply traded it from someone who charged zen.

If it's too much for you to see, no zen = no gold in this game. No matter how much "hard work" you put into this game you will NEVER have gold if no one charged it in the first place. Let me tell you something. You are nothing without the zen charges no matter how much "hard work" you put into this game, as far as gold is concerned. You will NEVER have gold without those. b:bye

I don't care that you bought gold from them. For all I care, they could have donated it to you. Then, would you say you farmed it?

For all the people who still don't understand basic principle of economics, let me ask you this. Do you think that donations (aka "free stuff") change the rules of the economy? Seriously?

ffs look at the big picture instead of your selfish pockets for once.



All in all, it is OBVIOUS that 2x only affects THE NPC PRICES objectively. Everything else stabilizes since it's players that set those prices. Drops are NPC based, and as such, they are simply the "npc income" versus "npc sinks". More income is always good, since that makes "npc prices" more obtainable overall.

More income for player-trade simply makes players raise the prices also to compensate since they price it according to the services involved. No one would buy something at 5 mil that takes 10 minutes to farm and is easily done.



EDIT: As far as Michael_Dark's attitude, that's nothing new. I mean, when suggesting something to make this game easier made him agree with it? At least RedsRose actually told that at the end.

You have a problem with making this game easier. Fine, just say it out aloud, don't use excuses like "**** up the economy", let people know for what you are because you obviously have no idea how an economy works in a game where the "income" you are talking about is npc-based like the npc prices (2x drops affects ONLY npc income versus prices).

Imagine irl, that everyone's salary gets doubled, but a TV costs the same for every person forever (npc price/crafting req). How is that a bad thing? Because you "didn't work as I did for acquiring that TV"? Get out.

If you want to have a hard game, really hard one, it's called a job.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Michael_Dark, I have no idea how to tell you this, but your post was full of bull****. Your assumptions about what I said as usual.

1) When did I say it was impossible to get gear without 2x drops? It just makes it friggin easier, wtf is your problem with that?

Why does (1) apply? In normal economy, printing money doesn't really make people richer at all. (by rich I also mean, stuff they have, like gear in the game). But you obviously forget one simple fact: crafting weapons requires a FIXED amount of items. The more mats, the easier it is to obtain gear. It's not player-based, it's a "NPC price" so to speak (where the 'currency' is the mats).

So all 2x would do objectively would make it EASIER to obtain gear. And WTF is wrong with that?
It hurts your income? Well it helps people who buy mats too, less spending for them... are you more important than them or something?

2) And for whoever agreed with you about "farming Gold" let me tell you something here Einstein. SOMEONE FRIGGING CHARGED ZEN FOR THAT GOLD. You did not farm gold. You simply traded it from someone who charged zen.

If it's too much for you to see, no zen = no gold in this game. No matter how much "hard work" you put into this game you will NEVER have gold if no one charged it in the first place. Let me tell you something. You are nothing without the zen charges no matter how much "hard work" you put into this game, as far as gold is concerned. You will NEVER have gold without those. b:bye

I don't care that you bought gold from them. For all I care, they could have donated it to you. Then, would you say you farmed it?

For all the people who still don't understand basic principle of economics, let me ask you this. Do you think that donations (aka "free stuff") change the rules of the economy? Seriously?

ffs look at the big picture instead of your selfish pockets for once.



All in all, it is OBVIOUS that 2x only affects THE NPC PRICES objectively. Everything else stabilizes since it's players that set those prices. Drops are NPC based, and as such, they are simply the "npc income" versus "npc sinks". More income is always good, since that makes "npc prices" more obtainable overall.

More income for player-trade simply makes players raise the prices also to compensate since they price it according to the services involved. No one would buy something at 5 mil that takes 10 minutes to farm and is easily done.



EDIT: As far as Michael_Dark's attitude, that's nothing new. I mean, when suggesting something to make this game easier made him agree with it? At least RedsRose actually told that at the end.

You have a problem with making this game easier. Fine, just say it out aloud, don't use excuses like "**** up the economy", let people know for what you are because you obviously have no idea how an economy works in a game where the "income" you are talking about is npc-based like the npc prices (2x drops affects ONLY npc income versus prices).

Imagine irl, that everyone's salary gets doubled, but a TV costs the same for every person forever (npc price/crafting req). How is that a bad thing? Because you "didn't work as I did for acquiring that TV"? Get out.

If you want to have a hard game, really hard one, it's called a job.

If I grind DQ mats and sell the drops to buy gold, I grinded gold. If I farm TT and sell the drops, I farmed gold. Hell, if I farm TT and sell the drops and buy tokens to get rep, I farmed rep. It's all how you look at.

Imo this game is way too easy already. Farming is pathetic since at lower levels it doesn't give you any money, and at higher levels it isn't a challenge. What's the idea of the instances if the bosses barely tickle you? What if you'd have to be alert all the time? What if the instances were so hard the success was never guaranteed?

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you want to have a hard game, really hard one, it's called a job.

No, that's called a "real game". Something that seems to be a rarity these days, both in MMO's and in console gaming.

You want to have a really easy game, it's called a private server.

Imagine irl, that everyone's salary gets doubled, but a TV costs the same for every person forever (npc price/crafting req). How is that a bad thing? Because you "didn't work as I did for acquiring that TV"? Get out.

Except it's more like if everyone's salary got lowered and a TV cost the same, since people that try to make money farming TT make less.

@Kupuntu: oh if you say you farmed gold, then the gold sellers "charged coins"? Really?

You farmed DQs, sold to npc (and thus coins), and traded it for gold from someone who charged zen. If no one charged zen, you can't "farm gold". All "farmed gold" comes from someone who charged zen.

And Michael, let's just say, I'm a game nerd. I don't really mind "working hard" since I have a lot of free time for this game. However, I have a friend who isn't like that. And I've been starting to realize just how bs low drop rates and all the "hard work for your gear" are in games everytime I talk to her. It simply doesn't cut it.

And I'm not even talking hard-core btw. Not +6 refines or anything. Even a TT set would make her happy in this regard, unlike all of you "pro" people who "work hard" in a game and are either jealous of lower players wanting to keep them back to "work hard for their gear", or selfish and want exclusivity.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Kupuntu: oh if you say you farmed gold, then the gold sellers "charged coins"? Really?

You farmed DQs, sold to npc (and thus coins), and traded it for gold from someone who charged zen. If no one charged zen, you can't "farm gold". All "farmed gold" comes from someone who charged zen.

And Michael, let's just say, I'm a game nerd. I don't really mind "working hard" since I have a lot of free time for this game. However, I have a friend who isn't like that. And I've been starting to realize just how bs low drop rates and all the "hard work for your gear" are in games everytime I talk to her. It simply doesn't cut it.

And I'm not even talking hard-core btw. Not +6 refines or anything. Even a TT set would make her happy in this regard, unlike all of you "pro" people who "work hard" in a game and are either jealous of lower players wanting to keep them back to "work hard for their gear", or selfish and want exclusivity.

It's not jealousy. It's distributive justice.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You basically just proved my point.

The whole "balance" theory is referring to the relationship between TT farmers and TT mat buyers. You're a farmer (more or less), and you don't want 2x back because it'll decrease your profits, due to the fact that the balance is not perfect, as I already described.

I, on the other hand, would be a buyer - if I had any interest in higher-leveled TT gear, which I don't - meaning I'd be happier if prices were lower. So are the scales tipped against you because of 2x? Perhaps. But that's because you rely on merchanting to make your profit. Grinding for coin does not (usually) involve any merchanting for one's profit, because the coins come from when you sell your DQ drops to an NPC merchant. Thus the coins are generated by the system... which, by the way, is good for the balance.

Except of course, for the fact that coins can be used on things other than your TT mats, which is kind of the point. :P 2x, if left on permenantly, would eventually even out for you... but for someone like me (and others who grind), it would help.

And if there IS inflation, I think we all know that it's the packs we can blame (for Big Notes).

^this

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

"Farmed gold" is short for "farmed coins that I exchanged to gold". It isn't exactly the best wording, but it works.

It doesn't matter because the point was that someone had to charge the gold in the first place. No gold can come into circulation in PWI without charging zen. You don't bring gold into circulation by farming, no matter how hard.

I, on the other hand, would be a buyer - if I had any interest in higher-leveled TT gear, which I don't - meaning I'd be happier if prices were lower. So are the scales tipped against you because of 2x? Perhaps. But that's because you rely on merchanting to make your profit. Grinding for coin does not (usually) involve any merchanting for one's profit, because the coins come from when you sell your DQ drops to an NPC merchant. Thus the coins are generated by the system... which, by the way, is good for the balance.

How is merchanting effected by double drops? I'm talking about people that farm TT, or can you not read?


And grinding? You can't be serious. Try to grind and make enough coins for high level stuff. Go grind until you can afford a lunar wep, get back to me when you do. Actually on second though, grind until you can afford a lunar wep, AND shards for it AND to refine it to a decent level.