Sage barb = dead end?

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  • Cirax - Dreamweaver
    Cirax - Dreamweaver Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    XxMountMexX - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I'm sry... but are you all seriously that clueless as to using a barb? Sage/Demon barbs can still hold agro to a 5aps per second bm easily... its only a matter of slowly flipping through ALL of your aggro skills (One by one... including maybe a genie one) with using ream the most to keep aggro... thats pretty much all you have to do.. and as for the demon barbs having more attack power than sage, well as stated earlier in this thread.. ain't much of a difference.. the only thing demon barbs have on sage barbs is full attack in tiger form and vice versa sage barbs have the hp bonus... still not that big of a difference in damage.. and sorry for ranting.. getting tired of these idiotic threads continously coming up.. btw Danger.. its all about how you play the barb as to whether demon or sage suits you.. just look at how you play the game. (ends rant)

    Maybe on a $$$ barb, and even then, I highly doubt it. Most decked-out interval characters you encounter not only have the interval gear, but the refines. GL holding aggro from a BM with TT100 +10 fists, with your +5 weapon. Even if your weapon was +10, the attack rate affects aggro so much more than flesh ream + your damage. As someone mentioned, the skill isn't tuned to deal with end-game DDing.

    And cycling through what aggro skills?

    -lvl11 flesh ream is the best you get.
    -Devour doesn't add too much aggro. Spam this, you run out of chi real fast if you're demon.
    -Roar resets aggro
    -Untamed Wrath is used in human form, takes time to channel, and adds garbage aggro.
    -Alpha male saves the day only for a few seconds.


    The best you can do is spam flesh ream. If a DD continuously takes aggro from you while spamming the skill, there is nothing you can do to permanently hold aggro.
    Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.

    ~Albert Einstien
  • jeroenjp
    jeroenjp Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    holding argo from bm, asassin wizzie and all the other classe's with high dmg is not that hard fore me. I can tank Whole Fb 79 in human form and even then holding the argo from the 9x players. i just spam my skills on the boss.

    it is true that fighting in human sage mode not that good then demon mode but i mean commone fist barbs??? the are nice fore solo TT runs true but naaa i dont like them the sound ill fail.

    i found out houw a tank can have 45k+ hp in tiger form on lvl 105. but thats my secret b:pleased
  • Cybetron - Harshlands
    Cybetron - Harshlands Posts: 153 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    I don't quite understand since when has this topic turned into holding aggro from BMs. This thread was about how a common axe barb (both Sage and Demon) who used to be the "tank" is being replaced by a fist BM/Barb with 5 aps and perma-spark.

    For those who really think they can hold aggro well - good job, keep it up - but regardless of how much str an axe barb pumps into his build, the refinements and all the lvl11 skills he cannot hold aggro 'effectively' against a +8 Deicide or tt100 claw BM who is permanently demon sparked and with speed of 5 aps.

    Just in case if someone doesn't know demon spark: additional 500% of weapon damage, an "average" fist user's attack becomes almost 9k PER 1/5TH OF A SECOND.
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Cybetron - Harshlands wrote: »
    I don't quite understand since when has this topic turned into holding aggro from BMs. This thread was about how a common axe barb (both Sage and Demon) who used to be the "tank" is being replaced by a fist BM/Barb with 5 aps and perma-spark.

    For those who really think they can hold aggro well - good job, keep it up - but regardless of how much str an axe barb pumps into his build, the refinements and all the lvl11 skills he cannot hold aggro 'effectively' against a +8 Deicide or tt100 claw BM who is permanently demon sparked and with speed of 5 aps.
    Just in case if someone doesn't know demon spark: additional 500% of weapon damage, an "average" fist user's attack becomes almost 9k PER 1/5TH OF A SECOND.


    100% in agreement here.

    I've seen lvl100 fist BM take and hold aggro from lvl103 barb, both with amazing gear. If the BM eases up, aggro will revert back to barb until BM decides to demon spark again.

    It's just the way it is anymore.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Lvl10XBarb
    Lvl10XArcher
    lvl10XAssassin
  • DangerField - Dreamweaver
    DangerField - Dreamweaver Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    again cybetron is spot on.

    I dont really care at all if im tanking or not. What I do care about is that there are no reason to take a barb, because we are just fillers. the most valuable thing we have to add is our buffs.
    Hell today I did a 3-3 run and a sin tanked the whole run with 1 cleric.
    some still need barb buff to survive though.

    maragon:
    Im not really sure shoot for 15-20k, depending on your gear. good mdef or def lvls you wont need so much.
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Danikovich - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Hah, are you so bad at math? Your weapon damage is HALVED in True Form if you are Sage.

    That means you'd need to have a weapon TWICE as good as a Sage Barb to have the same damage as a Demon Barb. So I'm guessing probably, if same weapons.... +10 refinement. Not much of a difference, I beg to differ.

    Sage deal 50% less weapon damage, not 50% less damage. It refers to the damage formula, and basically means it's as if you were attacking with 75 less strength. If sparks or skills are involved, and counting buffs and mastery, it really isn't as big a deal as people would like to believe. Like people thinking sage weapon mastery deals 15% more end damage, it's just incorrect.
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

    Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx

    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • OMarvelous - Sanctuary
    OMarvelous - Sanctuary Posts: 339 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Sure people may prefer to take other classes and want us basically only for the buffs in end-game, but I'll still play my character. I mean, come on...I'm a fuzzy half human tiger!
  • Danikovich - Heavens Tear
    Danikovich - Heavens Tear Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage deal 50% less weapon damage, not 50% less damage. It refers to the damage formula, and basically means it's as if you were attacking with 75 less strength. If sparks or skills are involved, and counting buffs and mastery, it really isn't as big a deal as people would like to believe. Like people thinking sage weapon mastery deals 15% more end damage, it's just incorrect.

    Didn't I mention the weapon, damage weapon example...? sorry I thought it was OBVIOUS that I was talking about WEAPON damage.
    Like they say in my country:
    When you are too smart, smartness eats you up.
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Win b:victory

    Its better of to show people ingame rather than telling from forums, its the most accurate way anyways. I don't have problems with aggro even if LVL70+ go all out when I tank on my barb....

    Edit: (people call me troll on the forums when I'm not b:sad)

    You're right.

    Calling you a troll is incorrect.

    You are Clueless, and yet you continue to lecture barbs about how to build a barb.

    That's a Putz.


    RedMenace

    \honestly, just stop
    \\you just make yourself look worse and worse each time
    \\\seen your "main" , b:chuckle
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide Posts: 770 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    XylolyX - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    100% in agreement here.

    I've seen lvl100 fist BM take and hold aggro from lvl103 barb, both with amazing gear. If the BM eases up, aggro will revert back to barb until BM decides to demon spark again.

    It's just the way it is anymore.

    +10

    Even with a +7 Ashura's axe and demon ream trying to keep agro from full -int BM's when running 3-3 or Nirvana etc is pointless unless they feel like checking their damage. But hey, they want to tank, Fuzzy say let em go wild. Personally me could care less.

    But for all the good in the world their -int gear does em, enjoy the look on their faces when you can tell em to go tank their own damn Delta runs.

    b:laugh
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Danikovich - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Didn't I mention the weapon, damage weapon example...? sorry I thought it was OBVIOUS that I was talking about WEAPON damage.

    And I thought it was OBVIOUS that mentioning the weapon damage formula shoulda made you look it up and realize you are still wrong.

    Weapon damage formula:

    (1+ STR/150 + MAS) * (LVL + Phys Attk)

    The -50% is a -.5 added into the first part. So with around 300 str, the difference between sage and demon would be:

    (1 + 2 + .9 - .5)/(1 + 2 + .75) = 90%

    So a sage would need 1/.9, or 111% higher refine than a demon barb when just doing auto-attack to deal the same, not twice as much. But seeing as Flesh Ream is going to be spammed, along with other skills usually, the damage difference will be less percentage-wise.
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

    Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx

    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • Danikovich - Heavens Tear
    Danikovich - Heavens Tear Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And I thought it was OBVIOUS that mentioning the weapon damage formula shoulda made you look it up and realize you are still wrong.

    Weapon damage formula:

    (1+ STR/150 + MAS) * (LVL + Phys Attk)

    The -50% is a -.5 added into the first part. So with around 300 str, the difference between sage and demon would be:

    (1 + 2 + .9 - .5)/(1 + 2 + .75) = 90%

    So a sage would need 1/.9, or 111% higher refine than a demon barb when just doing auto-attack to deal the same, not twice as much. But seeing as Flesh Ream is going to be spammed, along with other skills usually, the damage difference will be less percentage-wise.

    Nice numbers but I wonder if they are right, even so... I invite you to play a Barb and tank with True form level 3 and then become a Demon Barb and watch your 1,5k-3k hits suddendly become 2k-4,5k hits not mentioning the need to Flesh Ream only once unless there is a Fist BM or high refine Archer in your squad

    EDIT: I'm talking about damage in True Form, just as a heads up
    Like they say in my country:
    When you are too smart, smartness eats you up.
  • Tawarwaith - Sanctuary
    Tawarwaith - Sanctuary Posts: 391 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    I totally agree that holding aggro on an -interval fist bm that is sparking all the time is pretty much lost in advance. Yes bm can tank pretty much everything a barb can (if they can afford gear to get perma-spark, they also have good citrines).

    However, that they can spark all the time and get aggro, and then have them tank doesn't mean that is the most efficient way to kill a boss. If you look at a squad set-up, there is a different way to play for the fist bm then just being a spark-addict, keeping aggro on barb, and have boss take more damage. Instead of just demon-sparking, they can use axe and pole ulti (and only spark when they have spare tripple spark). Combined with a cleric who isn't forced to spamheal if a barb is tanking, bosses die actually faster. And clerics love it when on brig or linus they only have to put wings + 2/3 heals, then dd the rest of the time.

    Any DD can get aggro from a barb. Honestly I think a wizzie with comparable gear will take aggro of a fist bm if he wants to. However, it isn't a sign of strengt. Everyone should be able to change his style according to the squads formation. Those bms that start "I'll tank cause I'll steal aggro anyway" just don't know how to team up.
  • Coyote_Wise - Heavens Tear
    Coyote_Wise - Heavens Tear Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Eh, let em have aggro. I'll go axeless and spam Devour, get the job done. Barbs job is to protect squishies, and BMs don't count. We get some handy debuffs for a reason. -10 attack level for 4 seconds is at least 2 attacks on a boss from Devour besides the lowered defense, Alacrity to stop it from nuking the BM, Frighten to lower phys attack, Sunder to self heal so the cleric can concentrate on the BM.

    I'm going sage just for the speed anyhow. With my current gear I'll be running at 11ms, I'd like to see anyone stop me in a TW.b:cool
  • DaCage - Sanctuary
    DaCage - Sanctuary Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Coyote_Wise - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Eh, let em have aggro. I'll go axeless and spam Devour, get the job done. Barbs job is to protect squishies, and BMs don't count. We get some handy debuffs for a reason. -10 attack level for 4 seconds is at least 2 attacks on a boss from Devour besides the lowered defense, Alacrity to stop it from nuking the BM, Frighten to lower phys attack, Sunder to self heal so the cleric can concentrate on the BM.

    I'm going sage just for the speed anyhow. With my current gear I'll be running at 11ms, I'd like to see anyone stop me in a TW.b:cool

    Please record yourself in TW with speed gear. I'd preffer if you'd be pulling a cata.
  • Cybetron - Harshlands
    Cybetron - Harshlands Posts: 153 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I totally agree that holding aggro on an -interval fist bm that is sparking all the time is pretty much lost in advance. Yes bm can tank pretty much everything a barb can (if they can afford gear to get perma-spark, they also have good citrines).

    However, that they can spark all the time and get aggro, and then have them tank doesn't mean that is the most efficient way to kill a boss. If you look at a squad set-up, there is a different way to play for the fist bm then just being a spark-addict, keeping aggro on barb, and have boss take more damage. Instead of just demon-sparking, they can use axe and pole ulti (and only spark when they have spare tripple spark). Combined with a cleric who isn't forced to spamheal if a barb is tanking, bosses die actually faster. And clerics love it when on brig or linus they only have to put wings + 2/3 heals, then dd the rest of the time.

    Any DD can get aggro from a barb. Honestly I think a wizzie with comparable gear will take aggro of a fist bm if he wants to. However, it isn't a sign of strengt. Everyone should be able to change his style according to the squads formation. Those bms that start "I'll tank cause I'll steal aggro anyway" just don't know how to team up.

    So you are trying to say that a BM can do more damage than by demon sparking with 5 aps? if lets say that there exists a way where he/the other squad members can do more damage than what they already are wouldn't that just give the squad all the more reason to go with 2 BMs? One fist BM can tank and the other can do whatever you are trying to say.

    On wizards stealing aggro - that they can from us as well. But again I digress, I still didn't find any reason why a squad would go with an axe barb instead of a fist BM for most instances. Please don't mind my rant, I chose to play a barb so i could tank which is slowly and steadily being taken over by BMs b:sad

    @Fuzzy yeah I remember you getting Ashura.. how do u find it? Gonna recast it soon? Or thinking of restating to dex? b:chuckle

    @Coyote_wise yep you have very good points to support barbs as a support class b:thanks but just a few points - veno's armor break n debuffs are better, BMs also can cancel channeling b:surrender
  • Tawarwaith - Sanctuary
    Tawarwaith - Sanctuary Posts: 391 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    @Cybetron That is totally what I'm trying to say. have a bm use 4 sparks every 30sec on glacial spike and heaven's flame results imo in more damage then just sparking all the time. I don't do math on it, it's just what I notice in TT and bh (with barb, 70s cleric and a 60s bm I have). And since they won't spark as much and not right away, they won't get aggro (at least not that easily).

    I think you didn't got my second point though. I mean that ANY dd can get aggro from barb if they want to, still it's usually only the fist bm that really wants to tank. What I try to say in general is that everybody doing maximum individual damage isn't always equal to the optimal damage as a group. I think cleric is the easiest exemple to understand what I mean. Look at a cleric healing a barb on any random boss. He/she will be able to attack at least half of the time. Look at the cleric healing a fist bm. He/she is spamming ironheart. I don't think I could proove that I'm right, it's just personal experience. I always addapt my style to the squads composition on any toon I play. What counts for me is the shortest time to kill a specific boss, not who hits the highest to "win" the aggro.
  • Redmenace - Heavens Tear
    Redmenace - Heavens Tear Posts: 908 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Coyote_Wise - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Eh, let em have aggro.


    AMEN.

    Anyone who wants to crit-ho so badly @ a boss that they *try* to take aggro, frankly I let 'em have it.

    You run your char as if you're the only one there, you get to reap the rewards of having a 12M HP boss running after you with a stick.

    Everyone wants to be a Barb. You want it that bad, it's all yours.

    RedMenace

    \Demon Barb FTW
    \\GX's, demon sunder kick ***
    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
    Robert A. Heinlein
  • Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide Posts: 770 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    What I try to say in general is that everybody doing maximum individual damage isn't always equal to the optimal damage as a group.... ...What counts for me is the shortest time to kill a specific boss, not who hits the highest to "win" the aggro.

    Pretty sure we can all agree on this point. If Fuzzy in a squad with a decked out -int bm and and archer with refined nirvana bow (2 of me friends exactly that) and they decide to start playing ping-pong with who can hold the boss, me just let em go. But only after telling the cleric. They at least deserve to know Fuzzy not play along. Thank goodness most of me friends also prefer to work quickly and efficiently. They are happy to let Fuzzy tank and me is happy to do so. Want to steal it all the time and think it increases your epeen, your going to need to find yourself a different barb next time.


    @Cybetron The Ashura is pretty sweet indeed although Fuzzy still pulls the gx outta the bag now an then to pk with. But for pve stuffs, havnt had a better weapon yet. As for recast, not for awhile. More interested in reforging Fuzzy's Lunar HA set atm so me trade rapture's for uncanny's.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Hehehe Fuzzy, that's funny...but true. When that happens in my squads, everyone knows I'm not tanking because I go humanoid and start slinging my axe around, causing explosions and glowy animations.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Lvl10XBarb
    Lvl10XArcher
    lvl10XAssassin
  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Hm, lately when I do bhs on barb if I see a fist bm I just ask if they wanna tank or switch weapons for bosses, not like I'm gona hold, so might as well save everyone time & go human, while bm tanks.

    Think only instance I still tank is RB.

    Sage/demon... meh doesn't matter. You can always switch if you don't like & have enough $.

    I like my barb sage, not all squads include OP -int bms & archers. With more casual average gear players I still get to tank :D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Dsholder - Dreamweaver
    Dsholder - Dreamweaver Posts: 626 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    I'm sage and sometimes I don't tank TTs because the claw blademaster or the assassin tanks while I cancel the bosses aoe like Emperor. Barbarians help people rush in TT and sometimes have to grab bosses aggro and invoke if the sin or claw bm dies until the cleric is able to res. Sage barbarians have way more hp and defense than demon barbs and are capable of pulling Delta easier for their culti. I'm a sage barbarian and in TW i find it easy to not die, and even easier to kill people. Clerics, Psychics, Wizards all can hit a sage hard, but not too hard unless +8 weapon or higher and since these classes have only 5 dex usually the barbarian doesn't need blood bath. If you do TW then you can easily assist the cata barbs by being defence too and killing wizards. Sage barbs are also good at pulling mobs to bosses in COA for the party to aoe and get more kills for the hour.
    [SIGPIC]http://a.imageshack.us/img714/9433/testoz.jpg[/SIGPIC]

    If I had a dime for every time I was wrong, I'd be broke.
  • Zhadi - Archosaur
    Zhadi - Archosaur Posts: 695 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    BigFIuffy - Archosaur wrote: »
    i saw a heavy armor veno buying lunar claws on my server b:surrender

    Proclivity....

    -.- i really hate this game since anni packs came out but unfortunately im addicted and i can't quit...

    their greed totally killed gameplay for everybody..

    Edit: By "their" i meant, the GM and Dev's Greed.
  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Zhadi - Archosaur wrote: »
    Proclivity....

    -.- i really hate this game since anni packs came out but unfortunately im addicted and i can't quit...

    their greed totally killed gameplay for everybody..

    Edit: By "their" i meant, the GM and Dev's Greed.

    Hm... how are the GMs at any fault here?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • RemyHadley - Dreamweaver
    RemyHadley - Dreamweaver Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    fist/claws should be only for blademasters
  • Cirax - Dreamweaver
    Cirax - Dreamweaver Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited June 2010
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    Zhadi - Archosaur wrote: »
    Proclivity....

    -.- i really hate this game since anni packs came out but unfortunately im addicted and i can't quit...

    their greed totally killed gameplay for everybody..

    Edit: By "their" i meant, the GM and Dev's Greed.

    Viklass is right; and even if it were the GM's, it all comes down to business. We may complain about packs ruining end-game for players who farm hard compared to cash players, but even with all the commotion, people still play the game and charge zen. If they made a lot of money putting those packs in the boutique, they'll continue to do it until the cost of losing players outweighs the profit from the remaining players. That's just the way it is.
    Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.

    ~Albert Einstien
  • Tigrisbarb - Archosaur
    Tigrisbarb - Archosaur Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited August 2010
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    So. what is the better? sage tank or demon tank?? Pls write me back
  • mngirl
    mngirl Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
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    It sounds like some people forgot one thing barbs are awesome at. Tanking means they stand there and keep agro & get hit a lot while other people kill the boss, so it doesn't matter if a barb does more damage as sage or demon because that's not the purpose of a tank. Barbs can also be great DD's but in tiger form they're natural tanks if built right. Sure there are also some other classes who can take a lot of damage as a tank but most of the time they're actually functioning as a DD, not as a tank (unless of course they pull agro from the barb). And yes, some builds of other classes can have the hp to tank too (a well built bm can be a great tank) but that is something barbs are usually great at.

    As far as which is better, it's a personal preference. Read up on the differences between demon and sage barb skills and make your own decision. Check ecatomb.net or other sources for good info on the skill differences.

    Please don't flame me if you disagree with me. I have 101 cleric, 96 veno and 96 barb and all are sage so I have some useful knowledge on this subject (no I don't call myself "pro" like some like to do, I just know a few things from playing this game for 3 yrs)

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