Only Plume Shot and Cyclone

I_kaine - Archosaur · June 2010

From the past, til this day, people have beeng giving me these b:shocked, or these b:sad because of my build... The cleric I'm currently playing is what I call "Full Support Cleric" who is also pure mag build. Unlike normaL clerics or FAC, Full Attack Clerics, I focus mainly on the healing, buffing and debuff skills. Currently I have:

All my skills:
Lv 1 Blessing of the Purehearted
Lv10 Ironheart Blessing
Lv10 Wellspring Surge
Lv10 Revive
Lv 8 Purify
Lv 7 Chromatic Healing Beam
Lv 1 Rejuvenation
Regeneration Aura
Heaven's Wrath
All Buffs
All AoE Buffs
Lv10 Flight Mastery
Lv 8 Elemental Seal
Lv 5 Dimensional Seal
Lv 10 Plume Shot
Lv 10 Great Cyclone
(ALL the skills mentioned is what I have, so I don't have Plume Shell nor Thunderball)

I've never had any problems questing (usually takes 1 Ironheart Blessing & 4-5 Plume Shot per normal mob), nor finding people complain about how I heal as a cleric; just amused that I'm the only one who has used sololy Plume Shot and Greato Cyclone to this lv.

(I'm planning on getting my Purify and Chromatic Healing Beam to the highest lv until it's maxed, then focus on my debuffs (not Silent Seal or Chromatic Seal). After my debuffs are maxed, I'll work on getting Wield Thunder...)

Is there something wrong with my build? Will I need Wield Thunder and Tempest for future questing? Please do leave your comment and/or suggestions.

P.S. Tempest is the ugliest ultimate skill (IMO) b:shutup

Bollocks - Raging Tide · June 2010

Nothing wierd going on with your build, or with the way you play it. You have leveled the right skills. At some point I started using Wield Thunder as a 1st casting skill, especially against wood mobs. It does more damage, and it might even let you kill the mob before it reaches you. It does consume a bit more mana.

So, Wield Thunder for questing; yes. Tempest for questing; Not really. Or you wanne do some aoe grinding, but even then using Tempest wont be my suggestion.

bloooooooooooooooooo · June 2010

Well hellorh guys ^-^
The reason i added siren's kiss and thunderball to the list is because:
Siren Kiss Pros:
A mini tempest
Extremely quick casting
Good for aoes
It's good for survivability situations when your at low hp and so is your target... Paras them- probably killing them and saving you.
Even though it costs 1 spark its completely worth it.
Weild thunder:
A HORRIBLE skill the only reason i added it to the list is because it does DOT and also its useful to use between intervals of your other skills- the thing is I don't use plume shot at all on warriors or barbarians- because of their p def.
I tend to use cyclone, weild thunder and thunder ball.b:pleased

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

ewww...

dont lvl anything else now but get plume shell maxed ASAP and learn to use it

then dont lvl anything else beside: Stream of Rejuvenation (keep maxing to 85lvl), Elemental Seal, Purify before you go to FC on 80-85s

Dimensional Seal may wait since others have same or better

then u may play with seals (tho they are very situational in pve, but must for pvp) so it s up to you, also u will focus on getting ur 79 skills (one is good support skill, other defence for urself)

Later you may think about Chromatic Heal.. and u may pass getting wield thunder for longer time because u dont need it and it s great coint sink. same with tempest.

and about ur build - if u keep getting killed by TT bosses aoe on BB then you will have to fix it :P

Sevas - Heavens Tear · June 2010

I agree about Plume Shell. You should definitely get that one because it could give you that extra boost to survive a nasty hit. Personally, I like Weild Thunder as an initial damage hit when I'm questing or grinding in between AoE mob levels. Again, personally, the only reason why I really made a cleric was for Tempest. It's my favorite cleric skill.

I built my cleric to be FAC, but I end up being solo-supporter in my squads with her. Her base Vit is 70, str as needed for gear, and the rest to magic. I survive very well where other clerics my level my fall, of course, I've also got quite a bit of experience on my side too. Since you are a support cleric and you are rather squishy, I would consider sleep or that other seal skill. If a situation gets hairy and you don't have enough mp for shell to really work, one of those two skills might be all you need to make it to the nearest exit. A dead cleric can't ress a squad...

Max Purify pronto! The cooldown is shortened rather dramatically at L10 from L1. Tanks love that skill, especially at bosses that like to debuff (as you will experience with Krimson and FB69 bosses).

Skimi - Dreamweaver · June 2010

seems good. i have lvled others skills a bit, but still i mainly use my cyclon/plume macro. If you r going as support cleric mainly then healing is like everything you will do. If will have more time then debuff boss and if more then dd too, really depends on boss

Magiere - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

dont lvl anything else now but get plume shell maxed ASAP and learn to use it

then dont lvl anything else beside: Stream of Rejuvenation (keep maxing to 85lvl), Elemental Seal, Purify before you go to FC on 80-85s

Stream is pretty much the most overrated cleric healing spell there is.If you have normal magic attack and the newest weapon you never have to use it in any situation.
Haven't used stream in several months, simply cos there is no need for it when u spam IH.
-->waste of coins and sp

Maragon - Dreamweaver · June 2010

I_kaine - Archosaur wrote: »

From the past, til this day, people have beeng giving me these b:shocked, or these b:sad because of my build... The cleric I'm currently playing is what I call "Full Support Cleric" who is also pure mag build. Unlike normaL clerics or FAC, Full Attack Clerics, I focus mainly on the healing, buffing and debuff skills. Currently I have:

All my skills:
Lv 1 Blessing of the Purehearted
Lv10 Ironheart Blessing
Lv10 Wellspring Surge
Lv10 Revive
Lv 8 Purify
Lv 7 Chromatic Healing Beam
Lv 1 Rejuvenation
Regeneration Aura
Heaven's Wrath
All Buffs
All AoE Buffs
Lv10 Flight Mastery
Lv 8 Elemental Seal
Lv 5 Dimensional Seal
Lv 10 Plume Shot
Lv 10 Great Cyclone
(ALL the skills mentioned is what I have, so I don't have Plume Shell nor Thunderball)

I've never had any problems questing (usually takes 1 Ironheart Blessing & 4-5 Plume Shot per normal mob), nor finding people complain about how I heal as a cleric; just amused that I'm the only one who has used sololy Plume Shot and Greato Cyclone to this lv.

(I'm planning on getting my Purify and Chromatic Healing Beam to the highest lv until it's maxed, then focus on my debuffs (not Silent Seal or Chromatic Seal). After my debuffs are maxed, I'll work on getting Wield Thunder...)

Is there something wrong with my build? Will I need Wield Thunder and Tempest for future questing? Please do leave your comment and/or suggestions.

P.S. Tempest is the ugliest ultimate skill (IMO) b:shutup

dont bother with thunderball.
I dont use weild much except on increased defense mobs and when i'm in an instance with the faction and we all debuff and 2 spark at the same time to see what numbers we can getb:chuckle
I have sirens at lvl one and the only time i ever use it is when aoeing fb19 and clearing the boss room in 29
one u may want about lvl 75-80 is to get razor feathers. it makes for good aoe grinding as well as good DD on mob pulls in various instances (once ur sure the tank has good aggro ofc)

but yea your "FSC" build seems pretty normal to me

Lylfo - Dreamweaver · June 2010

You are good with your skill build until like..level 100 actually. Its enough for everything at that level. Max purify before CHB, you can leave it at lvl 7 until you start doing FC.

Def seals don't increase a whole lot of damage, its just a little but some might think every little bit counts. But yea, elemental over dimensional because veno and barb's def debuff overwrites our def debuff while elemental def debuff is pretty rare.

For a pure support, you might want to max at least silent seal.
A great use for silent seal is when a ranged DD repeatedly takes aggro(that is usually me lol) and you can paralyze a melee mob, it won't attack anyone else when it cant move and the ranged DD keeps agro. (This way, you can kill a mob without anyone taking damage especially with other classes chipping in a chain disable on the mob like another cleric with his silent seal, psychic with their spider web shot, wizards with their force of will, archer with their stunning arrow, BM with roar or the other stun, and sin...lol)

I find chromatic seal to be quite nice when trying to skip mobs. Cast it on a mob you don't like and holy path away. I used it alot in tt3-2 and 3-3 with the gaurnob/polearm mob which hits like a truck when solo rushing.

Wield thunder, thunderball and tempest is fine being at lvl 0, or lvl 1. Not much use for them anyway. Same goes for siren's kiss and razor's feather. BUT level Siren's kiss to lvl 1 for fc heads room.(You'll know what it is when you get there)

Get plumeshell ASAP. And get used to using it.

Leave Stream of Rejuvenation alone unless you are really bored/wants to find a use for the spell/really really bored. Reason is, most of the time, spamming IH does the trick, when it doesn't try using double/triple sparked IH/WS instead of casting Stream. That being said, I like healing a huge chunk of a barb's HP using SoR lol. Mine is healing 6k hp? i think.

Conclusion? Max your purify and the rest are just icing on the cake. You are almost done as a pure support skill-wise.

HoneyPott - Archosaur · June 2010

I thought this would be a good place to ask a bit more about seals and DDing, rather than making a new thread. I have got to lvl 81 without having one single seal skill. A couple of times I've been asked by someone in squad to debuff boss, and have (shamefacedly) admitted to not having the required skill.

So what DO I have?

IH, WS, CHB, Plume shot, Cyclone, Purify, Plume Shell, Vanguard and Magic shell (squad versions), CGS, Spirit's Gift and Revive all at lvl 10.

BB, RB, Spark Burst and Spark Ignition.

Wield Thunder and Metal Mastery at lvl 4, Tempest and SoR at lvl 1. I'm not including Siren and Thunderball here as I only got lvl 1 to get to Wield).

Could someone please add to Lylfo's (extrememly useful) information, and tell me what I should do about levelling seals? As a FSC I just want to be able to do my bit in the squad, and keep myself alive and kicking too!

And lastly, as I find that we clerics are oh so needed for FC, FB/BH, and all squad stuff, we are grossly overlooked when questing (and more recently, I find, in the nien event...), I really feel I need to be able to deal more damage than I do, simply because I like to be able to quest if I want to, and find mobs my level rather intimidating. I prefer to stick to those a few levels below me.
So my question about DDing is this: Should I continue to level Wield and Metal Mastery? I know there are clerics who will say no, and others will no doubt say I should level them. If so, how high? I need to save for my lvl 79 skill (I think I can only get one as they are so costly). How about Tempest? Is lvl 1 enough?

So to sum up, could a kind and experienced FSC please baby-step me through the seals and tell me what lvls I need of each (if any) and what they do? From looking at Lylfo's answer I feel silent is the one to go for, but from reading my skill descriptions, I would have gone for chromatic. And I need a bit of advice on the DDing side of a FSC, cos we have to have one if we want to do quests (and I like my quests and get quite a bit of coin from doin them). I'm so confused about what to do tho.

Thanks in advance for any replies and/or help.

Lylfo - Dreamweaver · June 2010

HoneyPott - Archosaur wrote: »

I thought this would be a good place to ask a bit more about seals and DDing, rather than making a new thread. I have got to lvl 81 without having one single seal skill. A couple of times I've been asked by someone in squad to debuff boss, and have (shamefacedly) admitted to not having the required skill.

So what DO I have?

IH, WS, CHB, Plume shot, Cyclone, Purify, Plume Shell, Vanguard and Magic shell (squad versions), CGS, Spirit's Gift and Revive all at lvl 10.

BB, RB, Spark Burst and Spark Ignition.

Wield Thunder and Metal Mastery at lvl 4, Tempest and SoR at lvl 1. I'm not including Siren and Thunderball here as I only got lvl 1 to get to Wield).

Could someone please add to Lylfo's (extrememly useful) information, and tell me what I should do about levelling seals? As a FSC I just want to be able to do my bit in the squad, and keep myself alive and kicking too!

And lastly, as I find that we clerics are oh so needed for FC, FB/BH, and all squad stuff, we are grossly overlooked when questing (and more recently, I find, in the nien event...), I really feel I need to be able to deal more damage than I do, simply because I like to be able to quest if I want to, and find mobs my level rather intimidating. I prefer to stick to those a few levels below me.
So my question about DDing is this: Should I continue to level Wield and Metal Mastery? I know there are clerics who will say no, and others will no doubt say I should level them. If so, how high? I need to save for my lvl 79 skill (I think I can only get one as they are so costly). How about Tempest? Is lvl 1 enough?

So to sum up, could a kind and experienced FSC please baby-step me through the seals and tell me what lvls I need of each (if any) and what they do? From looking at Lylfo's answer I feel silent is the one to go for, but from reading my skill descriptions, I would have gone for chromatic. And I need a bit of advice on the DDing side of a FSC, cos we have to have one if we want to do quests (and I like my quests and get quite a bit of coin from doin them). I'm so confused about what to do tho.

Thanks in advance for any replies and/or help.

Seal 101 for any cleric
1. Level/Max elemental seal first, then only dimensional seal.
---I have already explained it, elemental defense debuff is pretty rare compared to physical defense debuff. That, and the way physical debuff works in this game is that, some of them are of the same type(Barbarian's devour, Veno's ironwood scarab, Cleric's dimensional seal) and that they don't overlap. Then, using a Dimensional seal might be useless because a Veno is going to cast their ironwood scarab probably in less than 10 sec after they have casted their first one. The way the mechanics work is that the last debuff casted is applied and overwrites the earlier debuff. Cleric's physical def debuff lasts for 20 sec. Therefore, it is kinda a waste for you to learn and cast it even when it is superior simply because it is going to get overwritten.(Also, barb's devour has a better armor % reduction compared to veno's and cleric's)
(But please use the seal according to situation, if there is no magical DD, don't waste your time casting that debuff)

2.My opinion is that silent seal is only useful when maxed and chromatic can be useful at level 1. You will need every second from silent for it to be useful but for chromatic, usually even 1 level is enough to interrupt/give yourself some time to breathe/heal/run(make sure you purify or stick to holy path because of the speed debuff)

3. For DD, only maxed cyclone and plume shot is necessary. I would suggest maxing metal mastery before thinking about maxing wield thunder because your combo is going to be something like cyclone, WT, cyclone, plume shot, cyclone. Tempest is fine at level one unless you like to aoe grind, then it woud be more useful. Keep in mind that using your double spark and triple spark is better than using your sparks on tempest if you are DD-ing on a single target.

3+) Another thing to note when trying to DD in event like nien beast is actually the ability to spark quickly. Cleric's chi gain is horrible when compared to other classes and so, I would recommend having a genie with cloud eruption to give you more chi in an event like that. Also take note that plume shot, while spammable, is absolutely horrible for its chi gain and wield thunder has decent chi gain for its horrendous casting time.

4. How to do quest for a cleric.
a) stack IH on self
b) (optional) cast silent seal
c) cyclone/plumeshot/wield thunder (depends on whether it has any special trait or not(like increased def), you can try alternating cyclone and plume shot or jsut spamming plume shot)
d) (note that you can infinitely kite any mob using jsut cyclone and given enough space to do so, try this if a mob seems to be too hard)

I would suggest you ask faction mates as well other than the people at the forums. One person's opinion is jsut an opinion after all, this is the way I play my cleric, there are other ways out there for you to experiment and stuff.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Stream is pretty much the most overrated cleric healing spell there is.If you have normal magic attack and the newest weapon you never have to use it in any situation.
Haven't used stream in several months, simply cos there is no need for it when u spam IH.
-->waste of coins and sp

i will prolly do same when i get +10 rank 8 weapon

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Leave Stream of Rejuvenation alone unless you are really bored/wants to find a use for the spell/really really bored. Reason is, most of the time, spamming IH does the trick, when it doesn't try using double/triple sparked IH/WS instead of casting Stream. That being said, I like healing a huge chunk of a barb's HP using SoR lol. Mine is healing 6k hp? i think.

WS heals less per second than stacked IH, which means that by using it in combo ur nerfing (in long run) ur healing power.

lack of knowledge how and when to use SoR dont make spell useless. Geez, i rly dunno how high lvl clerics can write stuff like that. Imo, SoR is OP - i can heal 20k HP barb life in 2 shots, in 7 seconds. That should be forbidden lolz. Makes game too easy.

And when to use it? When things go wrong. When barb hp droped or is droping fast. When boss self buffed himself and there is no purge. When purify is on cooldown. When u want 'to buy' some time and take care of DDs cuz u know u can get back to barb health later to fix it in one shot. There are countless situations where u use it.
You use SoR in similar istuations where you would use WS - but on barbs.

This is so obvious that it s really scary that still need to be repeated b:sweat

Reasoning of you both can be expressed by something more-or-less like: 'SoR is too strong to use it'.
That's -at least- surprising what cleric can say about heal.. really

HoneyPott - Archosaur wrote: »

(...)

You may lvl metal mastery, it always add some dmg to metal spells. Tho u may pass lvling nukes (thunder, tempest) cause they arent very DPS wise (ask any wizzy or archer :P).

One good thing about thunder is that it s nice opener and tempest can be used to help to finish few mobs at once. But aside that, they are just too expensive to max..

debuffs, elemental one for sure

and seals. .what lylfo forgot to mention is that those skills aggro, and silent seal may expire rly fast, especially when u or team mate in mob's attack range; sleep seal just after someone hit mob, which makes usage of those skills in squad limited.

it s easier to use them while solo for sure.

so yea, seals can be useful, tho u may be bit disapointed after u get them..

Balthier - Dreamweaver · June 2010

SoR is really usefull for the non-lazy cleric.

Whenever I run an instance with an uncharmed barb, I tend to drop SoR, Debuff and DD boss, SoR, debuff and DD boss etc...

Basically adding a half a DD to the squad, speeding things up quite a bit b:pleased

(Insert WAAAA BUUUU "MP waste" b:cry). Yes, with mp food at 600-700 coins pr. 5000 mp, mp is a non-issue.

Just felt like sharing, since it seems all clerics on this forum does is heal......... (<--I like to add dots, dont be hatin')

Magiere - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i will prolly do same when i get +10 rank 8 weapon

Too bad i have to disappoint you, #1 its +8
#2 i ran tt 3-3 several times with a TT90 weapon.
Once when i was lower level myself.
Second time after i sold my Lunar weapon to get money for rank.

And yeah unlike you i even ran the old Lunar with it which is much harder than TT, it works fine too if u know how to heal.SOTR takes u freaking 3,5 seconds.
Never said its too strong btw, i said that its not useful to learn for a cleric that pays attention to his equipment, skills and timings.
Especially if u consider how expensive it is and how rarely you actually use it.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

u ran 3-3 with 90 weapon? so impressive.

anyway, im asking why not to get strongest heal in game which heals per second same amount of hp like 7 IHs in a row (at least 17s to get max stack) and takes just 'freaking' 3.5s to cast and can be spammed like IH thx to short cool down

per second SoR heals 2x more than WS (freaking 2.5s to cast) and 1.6x that BotP

u cant replace SoR healing power than any other skill or combo, and that is a fact

then ur saying, that cler shoudnt get SoR because he 'should be' fine without, deliberately lowering ur healing power.

that logic is just flawed

Magiere - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

u ran 3-3 with 90 weapon? so impressive.

anyway, im asking why not to get strongest heal in game which heals per second same amount of hp like 7 IHs in a row (at least 17s to get max stack) and takes just 'freaking' 3.5s to cast and can be spammed like IH thx to short cool down

per second SoR heals 2x more than WS (freaking 2.5s to cast) and 1.6x that BotP

u cant replace SoR healing power than any other skill or combo, and that is a fact

then ur saying, that cler shoudnt get SoR because he 'should be' fine without, deliberately lowering ur healing power.

that logic is just flawed

Yeah i ran tt3-3 with tt90 like everyone else, and you seem to have problems with it or you wouldn't praise sotr.
There is a very high chance that ur barb dies when you do nothing for 3,5 seconds after u realised oh nooo his HP is going down which is when you make his charm tick and your sotr has just been spammed on a full HP barb.
I dont use WS when high HP tanks a boss.

Seriously dont tell lower levels to max out one of the most expensive skills (coin wise), when
they hardly use it at all.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah i ran tt3-3 with tt90 like everyone else, and you seem to have problems with it or you wouldn't praise sotr.

i solo heal 3-3 with charmless barbs since low 90s with green +5 weapon. and i know that SoR saved barbs many times simply because u cant always have 'stacked ih' on barb.
f.e. u cant have it just after he aggro two gaumobs or when u heal or rez others when boss random (barb 'lose' stacks)

ur prob is that u actually dont use that skill and u dunno how. ur like those high lvl clers who say '79 WoP is useless because i dont use it'.
Or same like ppl who are saying that genies are useless (i was on of those long time ago) witout bothering to check skills.

seriously, lack of knowledge dont make skills useless

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is a very high chance that ur barb dies when you do nothing for 3,5 seconds after u realised oh nooo his HP is going down which is when you make his charm tick and your sotr has just been spammed on a full HP barb.

There is very small chance that barb will die in that 3.5s. Bit of risk that charm will tick if u time it wrong (i dont like to use SoR on charmed barbs if dont have good HP).

that 'incerdible' long cast time (3.5s) takes less than 2 IHs, while u get heal even before 1st IH start to 'work' actually.
saying that 3.5s is long when u compare to it hp it heals, is kinda 'lie' from math point of view

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seriously dont tell lower levels to max out one of the most expensive skills (coin wise), .

to be fair here i can tell to not bother getting SoR before late 70s because low lvl stream isnt very effective.

GuinevirX - Heavens Tear · June 2010

wield thunder is actually a nice opener skll , so yup once u max ur support skills ,max that too 9 but be careful it's a bit expensive
tempest = ur choice ( and hey its not ugly b:cry) it gives a boost especially on bosses if u have another cleric healing and u just attack/debuff . but dont rush on it (or prefer using RB , ur choice)
get all ur seals (cant imagine how happy it makes me when i see that bosses take more damage from my double sparked shots b:victory) or when i see clerics pown in PVP with their sleep seal (again only for PVP cause at PVE just attack) !!!!!
ur AoE heal = max that , and about stream mhmmm ur choice nice for emergency but i dont really think its should be for daily use (mana burner b:angry)

Magiere - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

.

Do the math and find out how much a sparked IH heals,maybe then you realise that sotr isnt needed.
I spam wings of protection all day long, compared to a SOTR which i only use when I'm bored or heal some BM/Barb that dueled charmless.

To gaurnob mobs, i never get in any situation where i fight them, and why would i?
(very bad example)

Remains the same, with the current nerfing of all instances i dont see any practical use for SOTR.
Also : dont throw around with assumption of skills or knowledge.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Do the math and find out how much a sparked IH heals,maybe then you realise that sotr isnt needed.
I spam wings of protection all day long, compared to a SOTR which i only use when I'm bored or heal some BM/Barb that dueled charmless.

sparked IH heals like dunno ~80% more?
but why to waste a spark if i will need it for empe or arma boss?
also, spark cast takes almost same time like casting SoR - didnt u say earlier how scray for barb hp are those 3.5s? (3s for spark)
u need to decide m8, u were just complaining 'bout sor channel, when SoR is 3.5s and spark+IH = ~7-8s

and still u cant outheal unsparked SoR simply because, u need multiple sparked IHs to get same HP per second result (something near 4).

and lets not compare IH with sparked SoR, cuz that would be just 'overkill'..

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To gaurnob mobs, i never get in any situation where i fight them, and why would i?
(very bad example)

it s very good example of unwanted aggro where u know u wont be able avoid fight, cuz there is no way to run.
barb get hit like for 1/4 -1/3 HP every their channel, so i can just wish u gl with outhealing that with IH

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Remains the same, with the current nerfing of all instances i dont see any practical use for SOTR.

Do u use genie for pve? yes? then stop it, because it s not needed - for same reason, and genies are far more expensive than SoR.

btw, SoR cost is 2.5m, compared to WT - 2m and Tempest - 4m or 79 skills 2.5m+, it s pretty normal price for a skill u max on 80s

and finally, again knowing that SoR cant be outhealed by any other skill or combo (damn devs dont like to double skills it seems) ur saying that SoR is not needed because game is too easy for it.. (again 'too strong to use' argument).

TBH we could say same thing about WS (there are ppl who used it on 1lvl just as chi source), we could say same about 79 skills, and we could say same about genies - right? There are some ppl who went tru game just with IH.

But u cant say thet their healing would be same effective like with those skills.
That would be lie, flawed logic.

And im not saying that you need to get SoR to be able to play game :P But that is it s another spell that improves ur healing. That is fact, proven by simple math calc or by situations where IH is too weak or too slow to keep barb alive - which isnt really hard to imagine.

dunno why u have so biased opinion about it :P

RedsRose - Lost City · June 2010

SoR is an amazing heal.

SoR is situational.

SoR is all in knowing 100% the timing or your heals.

You cannot properly use it if all you know is the timing if IH. Overall, it is an amazing skill b:victory

Magiere - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

.

At genie argument, you do realise that when genie and blessings came out i was level 85+ already?I know its not needed and except for holy path and tangling mire i hardly use any genie skills.

Spark, different sparks have different times.I never mentioned a 3 spark which is slow.(especially since we talk about lower level region here)

I'm biased against sotr, cos i see too many fail clerics using it.
I dislike it for its stupidly high mp cost, stupidly slow channel/cast and stupidly high price to even learn it.
And worst of all, that its usefulness is very limited to situations when you were either semi afk or started to goof around.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

At genie argument, you do realise that when genie and blessings came out i was level 85+ already?I know its not needed and except for holy path and tangling mire i hardly use any genie skills.

that pretty much sums up ur oldschoolish way of thinking =P

Magiere - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Does it make you happier when i say that i got 5 different genies based on what i do?
Just cos i have them, doesn't mean i always use em though.

Same goes for my sotr :-p

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear · June 2010

Made a spreadsheet ages ago comparing IH with SoR (put your magic attack and -chan in the green boxes)
http://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/deathbanana/ih-vs-sor

It's interesting how SoR only costs ~1.5 times the amount of MP per second IH costs. What's more interesting is how it's actually cheaper in terms of HP per MP spent. Oh, and it has a higher HPS, but that's old news.

Also, it's just silly to say a charm would tick if you channeled SoR, and suggesting IH as an alternative. IH takes 2 seconds to cast. Once casted, IH takes 2 HP regen ticks (~2s) to 'tick' (go see para's thread if you don't get what I'm saying). So, you have taken 4 seconds (notice that's longer than it takes to channel and cast the instant-healing SoR) to heal for 1/5th of an IH; typically, that's ~1/10th of an SoR. The same is applicable to sparked heals too, except even IH is even more drastically underpowered compared to the much more m.atk-heavy SoR. (EDIT: Scratch that last bit, assumed the SoR would be sparked too. Still, it's better to SoR)

You're solo-healing for Polearm. You lagged. Barb's at 20% HP when you purify. Do you bring his health up to almost full, or do you stack 2 IHs on him?

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2010

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Made a spreadsheet ages ago comparing IH with SoR (put your magic attack and -chan in the green boxes)
http://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/deathbanana/ih-vs-sor

It's interesting how SoR only costs ~1.5 times the amount of MP per second IH costs. What's more interesting is how it's actually cheaper in terms of HP per MP spent. Oh, and it has a higher HPS, but that's old news.

Also, it's just silly to say a charm would tick if you channeled SoR, and suggesting IH as an alternative. IH takes 2 seconds to cast. Once casted, IH takes 2 HP regen ticks (~2s) to 'tick' (go see para's thread if you don't get what I'm saying). So, you have taken 4 seconds (notice that's longer than it takes to channel and cast the instant-healing SoR) to heal for 1/5th of an IH; typically, that's ~1/10th of an SoR. The same is applicable to sparked heals too, except even IH is even more drastically underpowered compared to the much more m.atk-heavy SoR. (EDIT: Scratch that last bit, assumed the SoR would be sparked too. Still, it's better to SoR)

You're solo-healing for Polearm. You lagged. Barb's at 20% HP when you purify. Do you bring his health up to almost full, or do you stack 2 IHs on him?

in my case its *pole debuffs bm tank*...the cleric gets a glazed faraway look in his/her/its eyes, looks at me as i am 3 shoted, and says these sage words of holy wisdom "dur whats purify?"

Lylfo - Dreamweaver · June 2010

If you PvE, there is simply no need for SoR until level 100 (just in case PWI comes out with weird dungeons :S). Reason? IH suffice in getting the job done(making sure tank is healed) while not being ridiculously expensive. No matter how powerful is SoR, IH healing is actually encouraged since like lvl 40? and the fact that you have pressed that one button in your entire PW career to heal most of the time means you know how to use it much better than other healing skill. If it is not broken why fix it?

Yes, SoR is powerful ,might save a party from a wipeout but chances of that happening is very, very slim. I would agree with RedsRose 100% that it is a situational heal.

And heal over time is alot better than healing alot of HP in one cast. Think about it, in a situation when you are healing a barb, and the boss have interrupts, missing one or 2 IH isnt such a big deal as missing one or 2 SoR. Also, you can adjust the amount healed per second more freely with IH compared to SoR. This makes IH a powerful heal but flexible instead of powerful but situational like SoR.

Btw, the "discussion" between Paramedic and Magiere. Paramedic is a demon cleric with demon IH and SoR while Magiere is a sage cleric with sage IH and SoR. I don't know if both of them are aware of those facts but the thing is, a Sage's cleric's sage IH is a very powerful heal and I think that can be a replacement for Sage SoR in the situations where SoR would be useful but a Demon's SoR is very powerful with the added effect.

HoneyPott - Archosaur · June 2010

Thanks for the detailed explanation of seals and their uses Lylfo. I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. I do realise you had explained seals, but it only made me want to know more about them before taking the plunge and getting them. As I have only played cleric to a high level, I don't know much about the higher level skills of other classes, so the info on the physical defence debuff being overwritten by such skills is invaluable.

Another thing that I have found must useful is the suggestion of getting Cloud Eruption for my genie to help me with chi. I'm kinda like "why didn't I think of that?", but I've been finding it hard to choose from among the many genie skills available (something else I need to research further). You're right - Plume Shot is an awful way of getting chi back, and I was considering getting some apo rems for this, instead of using my "chi macro (a wellspring/pureheart x 4), but now I'll definately go for cloud eruption.

Thanks again for your patience and help b:thanks

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

@lylfo

blah blah ur wrong, except one part, that SoR is situational. indeed - just bit less like WS

and which is worse- u bearly have experience with using this spell and ur writing about it =/

im using SoR for almost a year now, leveled as soon i could, since i was one of those wierd FSC and had sp for that purpose. I squaded with hundreds of barbs -those with best gear in server and those with really bad parts- since i very often ran in random squads. I ran friggin thousand of TT runs -since it was my main source of moniez- and another thousand of FBs, with my 12k rep.

and from my experience i can say about SoR:

-that it s crappy on low lvls, pref. 7 if not 8+

- it s not main heal, cant replace IH due to dmg mechanics in pve (repetitive low-mid hits mainly)

-rule of using SoR is very simple - whenever IH would be not enough or would be too slow (yes, those moments happens often, u can say that not but -still- yep, they happen)

-it s all about timing; and it means that u need to learn to use it actually. it s tricky and takes some time.

-3.5s is not long, it s just 1.5s more than IH cast and 1s than WS. Let someone finally, explain what can happen in that 1.5s? Or better, what would you be able to do in that 1.5s?

-that whole demonizing SoR costs is totally missed since it cost same like any other 80lvl skill or 79 skills (or u gonna recommend to get thunder/tempest/79/aoe heal/ chromatic seal on 100lvl too?).

and btw there is no 'discussion' tbh. If im getting it right, Magiere is convincing that game is too easy for SoR, so spell is not worth money u pay for it.

I can just ask that if u spending more just for one 79 skill, 2m for WT, 4m for Tempest or 2-10m for genie which are even more situational, then wth u cant spend 2.5m for SoR? >>"

@HoneyPott

genie chi spell is useful in 'oh **** i dont have spark for bb situations' and also enable ya to have perm. 1lvl spark + IH on tough bosses like ape in 2-2 when there is no veno or she suck in purging.

and 1 spark from genie cost like 1/5 of spark from apo

Lylfo - Dreamweaver · June 2010

HoneyPott - Archosaur wrote: »

Another thing that I have found must useful is the suggestion of getting Cloud Eruption for my genie to help me with chi. I'm kinda like "why didn't I think of that?", but I've been finding it hard to choose from among the many genie skills available (something else I need to research further). You're right - Plume Shot is an awful way of getting chi back, and I was considering getting some apo rems for this, instead of using my "chi macro (a wellspring/pureheart x 4), but now I'll definately go for cloud eruption.

My advice on getting cloud eruption on genie is, if everything works now like having second wind and tree of protection or other genie skills, I would suggest making a new genie to experiment with it. More chi is definitely useful but I don't want to force you into uncomfortable situations where you have to sacrifice a useful genie skill just becase person X in the forum says so.

Cloud eruption like what Paramedic has said is useful for the things that he said. However I would like to highlight an important use of cloud eruption for clerics. The skill purify consumes like 15(?) chi per cast. In some rare cases you would have to be ready to purify( and repeatedly do so for a long period of time) another person (like if the other healing cleric is being slept repeatedly). This is when cloud eruption truly shines for me. Even though you can heal to gain that chi, it is simply better to get the chi from cloud eruption because youwold be ready anytime to purify, and if you heal, you have to wait for the current healing animation to finish.

Also, I would not recommend the apoth to fix your chi needs unless its to make sure you have enough chi to BB.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@lylfo

blah blah ur wrong, except one part, that SoR is situational. indeed - just bit less like WS

and which is worse- u bearly have experience with using this spell and ur writing about it =/

im using SoR for almost a year now, leveled as soon i could, since i was one of those wierd FSC and had sp for that purpose. I squaded with hundreds of barbs -those with best gear in server and those with really bad parts- since i very often ran in random squads. I ran friggin thousand of TT runs -since it was my main source of moniez- and another thousand of FBs, with my 12k rep.

and from my experience i can say about SoR:

-that it s crappy on low lvls, pref. 7 if not 8+

- it s not main heal, cant replace IH due to dmg mechanics in pve (repetitive low-mid hits mainly)

-rule of using SoR is very simple - whenever IH would be not enough or would be too slow (yes, those moments happens often, u can say that not but -still- yep, they happen)

-it s all about timing; and it means that u need to learn to use it actually. it s tricky and takes some time.

-3.5s is not long, it s just 1.5s more than IH cast and 1s than WS. Let someone finally, explain what can happen in that 1.5s? Or better, what would you be able to do in that 1.5s?

-that whole demonizing SoR costs is totally missed since it cost same like any other 80lvl skill or 79 skills (or u gonna recommend to get thunder/tempest/79/aoe heal/ chromatic seal on 100lvl too?).

and btw there is no 'discussion' tbh. If im getting it right, Magiere is convincing that game is too easy for SoR, so spell is not worth money u pay for it.

I can just ask that if u spending more just for one 79 skill, 2m for WT, 4m for Tempest or 2-10m for genie which are even more situational, then wth u cant spend 2.5m for SoR? >>"

But lets be honest here, I think I can get to where I am today all without SoR. So can you. And I am not the only one who thinks that I can do my duty as a cleric without SoR. The question is, is SoR worth the 2.5mil? Especially for those lower levels who could have spent in other things like shards and low refines?

PS: I do think SoR is a useful heal and I do use it... just not as frequent because IH is enough most of the time.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · June 2010

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But lets be honest here, I think I can get to where I am today all without SoR. So can you. And I am not the only one who thinks that I can do my duty as a cleric without SoR. The question is, is SoR worth the 2.5mil? Especially for those lower levels who could have spent in other things like shards and low refines?

PS: I do think SoR is a useful heal and I do use it... just not as frequent because IH is enough most of the time.

to be honest here, i cant imagine my gameplay without SoR. it s very comfortable spell. My tanks benefits from it and also DDs since i can spend more time on healing them (SoR as secure spell if tank HP drop too much).
also, SoR makes hard bosses easier to solo like f.e. wulord - u can get full hp barb in 3.5s after every nuke.
With SoR wipe out situations are even more rare, since u can get ur tank half hp in 3.5s after u rez him.

there are countless situations where u can use it - and most often ppl who will tell u that given skill (any) is useless are those who didnt use it enough long or often to find its applications.

so yeah, it s worth getting if any other 79+ skill is.

exactly same arguments like yours were used by clerics who didnt find 'enough usefulness' in wellspring surge, 79 skills or genies - again, most often ppl who just didnt use them.

and sure, u can go tru game without mentioned skills, but i can just feel sorry for ur squad members.

seriously, lets not try to be smarter than game designers..

Only Plume Shot and Cyclone

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