Strats for dueling bm's

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary
Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary Posts: 337 Arc User
edited June 2010 in Wizard
Of all the classes on pw, bm's have been the toughest for me (with the exception of sins), and I wanted to see what strats you other wizards have tried.

Note: I'm obv. not talking about bad bm's.
The bm im talking about uses will of the bodhisatva (antistun) at the start of the duel, knows how to continuously stunlock using drake bash/roar without letting you use any skill except MAYBE distance shrink if they slip on timing by a split second. The bm also has the ranged 79 seal skill and uses it to ensure that roar hits, so I can't shrink away during roar channel. Lastly, the bm can survive a simple sutra, seal, dp, ss and has good enough gear so that I can't just survive a stunlock and sleep, shrink, sutra combo him if I get out.

Strats I have tested:
1) sleep -> shrink -> sutra -> undine, glacial, sandstorm, dp
problem: sleep gets resisted by bodhisatva, stunned by drake and game over.

2) sutra -> seal -> undine -> phoenix -> pyro -> shrink -> gush -> phoenix/kite/sleep+glacial
problem: drake bash hits between pyro and shrink (roar doesnt, but 0.4 chan on bash is fast enough). stunlock + game over

3) sutra -> seal -> undine -> sandstorm -> shrink -> gush -> pyro -> phoenix/kite/sleep+glacial
problem: works, unless after shrink, bm uses ranged 79 seal, sprints up to me, drake bash, stunlock, game over

4) shrink -> gush -> double spark resist drake bash -> seal -> phoenix -> shrink -> gush
problem: works, unless bm uses ranged 79 seal after double spark resists drake bash. roar comes after seal, stunlock, game over

Thanks :).

Note: Please don't say cashshop. I want answers that actually involve skill. That doesn't mean you have to have bad gear - I'm using an aquadash +5 with 3.4k pdef self-buffed, 3.6k hp.

Note 2: I don't wish to include genie skills.
Post edited by Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    99% of BM's I fight in a duel start with their anti-stun.. which is pretty easy to counter. It is really easy to just lol at them and holy path away/shrink jump in the air or do w/e you want until it runs out. After their anti-stun is out you can slow them with gush/glacial snare or just sleep -> MS or sutra -> seal -> MS and hit them while they are stunned. You could also look into fortify genie skill (which I use a LOT) which is AMAZING against barbs and bms. The way I actually kill a BM in a duel depends on a ton of things.. but just kite while they have their anti stun on, shrink almost on cooldown and use lots of water skills to keep some distance. Just chip away at their hp with gush/hailstorm while kiting or try to stun them with MS and finish them off quickly xD
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  • Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary
    Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Ah, I should edit that I don't use genies in my duels. It's against my beliefs for duels unless agreed to prior.

    I will definitely try the jumping method. Only used it against sins before, but its a good idea.

    I don't think MT will be of much use to me until I get my culti in 1 lvl.
    It's near maxed though - so I will incorporate that when I get 3.99 sparks and can sutra, seal, MT
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    sleep -> MS works wonders even without ur 89 culti.. just a thought
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  • Xegeth - Dreamweaver
    Xegeth - Dreamweaver Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Make sure you learn all the little icons, so that you know when a bm is immune to stun, when his magic marrow runs out etc. As Adroit said, kite the hell out of a stun immune bm. If he stunsyou in the air, laugh at him and keep on kiting.

    Your best bet really is sleeping from max range and then channel MS. It should hit before the bm can stun you. And a 6 sec stunned BM that was already hit by an ult is a dead bm. I stacked some channel for that reason, so that MS channeling time is less than 4 seconds, so that the BM/Barb doesn't wake up before the channeling is finished.

    I hardly ever use sutra against bms, unless I got fortify or an anti stun pot, because it can be easily wasted. Every BM will stun the hell out of you when they see the sutra sparkle.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary
    Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Make sure you learn all the little icons, so that you know when a bm is immune to stun, when his magic marrow runs out etc. As Adroit said, kite the hell out of a stun immune bm. If he stunsyou in the air, laugh at him and keep on kiting.

    Your best bet really is sleeping from max range and then channel MS. It should hit before the bm can stun you. And a 6 sec stunned BM that was already hit by an ult is a dead bm. I stacked some channel for that reason, so that MS channeling time is less than 4 seconds, so that the BM/Barb doesn't wake up before the channeling is finished.

    I hardly ever use sutra against bms, unless I got fortify or an anti stun pot, because it can be easily wasted. Every BM will stun the hell out of you when they see the sutra sparkle.

    I'm very familiar with icons.
    I see your points, but can you expand on how you would survive 15 secs of anti-stun w/o using holy path?
    Let's just say they drake bash - stunned in air, 6 secs/15 done. If you manage to get a seal+shrink, that's about 5 more. Then there's the last 4 seconds, which is enough to start a stunlock.

    Thanks
  • Myriad_ - Lost City
    Myriad_ - Lost City Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    If you aren't willing to use your genie you're screwed, simple as that.
  • Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary
    Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »
    If you aren't willing to use your genie you're screwed, simple as that.

    Uh-huh.
    That mindset is why I don't use my genie except for holy path for travel purposes strictly.
    Getting totally dependent on a genie is kinda pathetic (totally legit in pk and pve, but definitely pathetic for duels just because they're so short, charms aren't involved, and they're a matter of comparing skill).

    Your narrow-mindedness doesn't leave any room for creative combo's that involve a lot more skill. And guess what? Learning to duel w/o genies has made me much better at the game and at my class in general. Either way, if you're not trying to be helpful, leave my thread.


    Edit: Didn't want to double post, so I'm putting what I would add on another reply here.

    Thank you tremendously for that idea, Adroit. I used strategy #4 on my first post, but jumped right after double spark. Seal hit me as I was going up, and roar caused a rubber band and I was safely out of range for 6 secs. I sealed him, undined, waited a sec, slept (bodhi wore off by then), shrink, glacial, gush and I won.

    Quite a complicated strat, but was totally fun seeing it actually work :).
  • Myriad_ - Lost City
    Myriad_ - Lost City Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Ok you want some help? When the counting begins, try to get back the more you can. Use distant shrink too. Try to get some range, and yeah, jump is a good solution if you see he will stun you. Then use undine then sleep, and do whatever.
    The genies are here to help you, no more no less. Genie timing up is a component of the skill of a player, look at Transcend videos , he is a master of surviving/kiting.
  • Xegeth - Dreamweaver
    Xegeth - Dreamweaver Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I'm very familiar with icons.
    I see your points, but can you expand on how you would survive 15 secs of anti-stun w/o using holy path?
    Let's just say they drake bash - stunned in air, 6 secs/15 done. If you manage to get a seal+shrink, that's about 5 more. Then there's the last 4 seconds, which is enough to start a stunlock.

    Thanks

    Is you shrink maxed? Because usually you can just run, shrink away, keep running, fow, run on and then shrink again. I hope you do not start the duel standing right next to the bm. You can also try to shrink away/seal and fly when he uses his anti stun. In the air you got a speed advanatage because shrink works while flying while will of... whatever... doesn't. You can drop as well for kiting/damage reduction. Watch out for true emptiness in the air tho. But since you do not use genies, I assume your opponents don't use it either.

    By the way, if you are stunned, the bm usually wasts time to fly up or uses his ranged attacks. It's usually more than 6 seconds that go to waste this way.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear
    Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    FoW>Undine>Gush>WoTP> Sleep> Shrink back>GS>SR Should be close to dead by then, but if not, FoW should almost be out of cooldown. :D

    Edit: That combo actually works very well with some practice, Haiz sugggested it in a wiki post. Also instead of casting up a GS after you blink, you may be able to MS instead and get some good nukes off after that.
    The doctor will see you now.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    FoW>Undine>Gush>WoTP> Sleep> Shrink back>GS>SR Should be close to dead by then, but if not, FoW should almost be out of cooldown. :D

    Edit: That combo actually works very well with some practice, Haiz sugggested it in a wiki post. Also instead of casting up a GS after you blink, you may be able to MS instead and get some good nukes off after that.

    Its generally a good idea to undine the target before the FoW/Sleep/Spark/sutra etc.. and your strategy wouldn't work if they had their anti stun on.

    @OP, if you are having trouble kiting the BM for that first anti-stun, try shrinking, jumping, flying, FoW and keep going. The only time I really "need" to use holy path is when I'm in an instance.. because you can't really jump, but most the time the BM's stun me when I'm near max height (if they use roar and I time it right, and most their other stuns just miss) and I just lol because they only have one ranged skill that doesn't do much damage (and I basically get a free 6 seconds to let their anti-stun wear off and my cooldowns to end). If they get on their flying mount to get me, obviously I'll be back on the ground before they get to me, and if they wait for me where I land.. 99% of the time shrink/FoW will be off cooldown and I can still get away. You really shouldn't have too much trouble running from a BM for a few seconds without getting stunlocked, even without a genie (unless they are using theirs).
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  • Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear
    Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Oh yes you're correct, it is Undine>FoW I did not see my error.

    But nonetheless still a good combob:victory
    The doctor will see you now.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Oh yes you're correct, it is Undine>FoW I did not see my error.

    But nonetheless still a good combob:victory

    The sleep and slow on gs/gush wouldn't work on a BM that just used their anti-stun sprint though (which is what we've been discussing)
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  • Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear
    Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Right I understand, but without the anti-stun it works well, ijs

    Sorry if I got off topic.b:surrender

    Edit: COMON Adroit JUST AGREE WITH ME ;d

    Fixed
    The doctor will see you now.
  • Myriad_ - Lost City
    Myriad_ - Lost City Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Lol why so many people miss spell adroit's name?
    Btw Adroit are you french? because your name means something in french lol...
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I'm not french, and I'm aware of the meaning xD Kinda an odd and long story as to how I'm using that name now, but I'm not gonna bore everyone with it.

    @arma, Its kinda hard to agree with strats like that when every fight is different. It might work on some BM's, but I can guarantee you most the BM's I fight won't die from those 4 skills >.>
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  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    The sleep and slow on gs/gush wouldn't work on a BM that just used their anti-stun sprint though (which is what we've been discussing)
    Simple question. Will of the Bodhisatva makes them immune to sleep as well?
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Simple question. Will of the Bodhisatva makes them immune to sleep as well?

    yes and every other effect that slows/stops them from moving
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  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Wow damn. I wonder if the assassin's Maze Steps does that as well, since the description is very similar and the skill has similar characteristics, just different numbers.

    Thanks though.
  • Myriad_ - Lost City
    Myriad_ - Lost City Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    I'm not french, and I'm aware of the meaning xD Kinda an odd and long story as to how I'm using that name now, but I'm not gonna bore everyone with it.

    Oh please tell us the story, grandma Adroit ^_^
  • Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary
    Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    To Xegeth: shrink, nukes, seal, and base skills all maxed.

    To Arma: That is similar to my 2nd and 3rd strats - it's definitely not enough time to escape sprint+bash
  • Myriad_ - Lost City
    Myriad_ - Lost City Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    If you don't begin the fight next to him and you have ur shrink maxed, you should be able to escape him. Try to go in the airs like Xegeth said, it will be easier.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »
    Oh please tell us the story, grandma Adroit ^_^

    Well.. because u asked xD

    I used to play Diablo 2 a number of years ago, and in that game there was actually an advantage to having a short name (The hp was shown over the name.. so if the name was really short it was difficult to tell how much hp someone had left), and I ended up picking some name like Deft or something dumb like that b/c I was really cocky and thought it was cool. Anyway, I made a "themed" account so all my character names were synonyms, which included Adept, Proficient, Adroit etc etc. So a few years later I had stopped playing video games all together and was learning how Torrents worked.. found a big file to download (PWI) to see how fast it went and whatnot.. And then I wanted to see how good free games are.. so made this character as a joke. Every random letter combination I was typing in kept being already taken, so I started going through old character names and this was the first one to actually work. Anyway, if I could start over I'd be a guy, and probably a different name.. I feel kinda conceited with this name. Anyway.. thats basically why I chose this name b:surrender
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  • Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary
    Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Myriad_ - Lost City wrote: »
    If you don't begin the fight next to him and you have ur shrink maxed, you should be able to escape him. Try to go in the airs like Xegeth said, it will be easier.

    Not really...
    Let's just say you start 25-ish meters away. They have a sprint buff and can reach you in approx 2 secs, shrink buys another 2 secs, force of will 4-5 secs, and they still have 6-ish secs to stun you.


    Going in the air will certainly help, although they might QQ about it.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Not really...
    Let's just say you start 25-ish meters away. They have a sprint buff and can reach you in approx 2 secs, shrink buys another 2 secs, force of will 4-5 secs, and they still have 6-ish secs to stun you.


    Going in the air will certainly help, although they might QQ about it.

    *writes all this down*b:sin

    the main issue wissies have in duels is the lack of charms = if the bm gets close game over

    the random jump tactic is honestly your best bet against 99% of bm's since most dont know how to time their stuns for your landing or use leaps to instashrink to you

    also to those suggestign genis ocoult ice works in duels and is horrificly OP in that context since DB>seal>raor>ice = 20 seconds of freeze or even the redunculousness of TE

    also assuming you start 2 meters away leap>s>leap would put you right in rotp range shrinks main use is in map PK where you can run and path all day long till a freeze procs or sleeps out of CD letting you set up a kill combo
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    *writes all this down*b:sin

    the main issue wissies have in duels is the lack of charms = if the bm gets close game over

    the random jump tactic is honestly your best bet against 99% of bm's since most dont know how to time their stuns for your landing or use leaps to instashrink to you

    also to those suggestign genis ocoult ice works in duels and is horrificly OP in that context since DB>seal>raor>ice = 20 seconds of freeze or even the redunculousness of TE

    also assuming you start 2 meters away leap>s>leap would put you right in rotp range shrinks main use is in map PK where you can run and path all day long till a freeze procs or sleeps out of CD letting you set up a kill combo

    bm getting close is not game over >.>
    If the BM is using their genie, there is no reason I couldn't use my genie for anti-stun xD
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  • Koolaid - Heavens Tear
    Koolaid - Heavens Tear Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Assuming you have your skills maxed, like FoW and Shrink, and that the duel does not start with the Bm in your face.


    Try doing Undine right at the beginning, followed by FoW.

    Then use 1 quick skill like pyro, gush, pitfall, crown of flame, anything fast.

    When FoW seal is about to run out, distance shrink away, and not through them because you
    wont go as far from them.

    You will see them running towards you, this is when you jump over them, towards them. It is very likely you will be stunned in the air(if they use roar, and thats a high possibility). If that happens you can now sleep them when you drop.

    (It's ok to simply run from them because most of their skills will just get interrupted, except roar and ranged skills)

    Once you get the sleep in, just sutra finish it or Shrink again and FoW. The BM will probably take a lot of hits at this point. Duel would end somewhere here


    That's generally how I duel a BM but many things like stairs or buildings in the way may change how I handle it. Use your surroundings.

    Note that after a defeat it is more likely the BM will use his heal sutra if you continue having duels.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Koolaid - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Assuming you have your skills maxed, like FoW and Shrink, and that the duel does not start with the Bm in your face.


    Try doing Undine right at the beginning, followed by FoW.

    Then use 1 quick skill like pyro, gush, pitfall, crown of flame, anything fast.

    When FoW seal is about to run out, distance shrink away, and not through them because you
    wont go as far from them.

    You will see them running towards you, this is when you jump over them, towards them. It is very likely you will be stunned in the air(if they use roar, and thats a high possibility). If that happens you can now sleep them when you drop.

    (It's ok to simply run from them because most of their skills will just get interrupted, except roar and ranged skills)

    Once you get the sleep in, just sutra finish it or Shrink again and FoW. The BM will probably take a lot of hits at this point. Duel would end somewhere here


    That's generally how I duel a BM but many things like stairs or buildings in the way may change how I handle it. Use your surroundings.

    Note that after a defeat it is more likely the BM will use his heal sutra if you continue having duels.

    So a few questions.. Why would u ever use pitfall or crown on flames in your scenario? Why would you sleep and then sutra right after? Why would you jump towards the BM instead of away?
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  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    bm getting close is not game over >.>
    If the BM is using their genie, there is no reason I couldn't use my genie for anti-stun xD

    ok a interval bm or if somebody got low hp and only self buff then could be over if berserk work during stun+occult ice+stun.

    with self buff a 5k hp lv90+ wizz with pdef stones still die easier from a 3atack/sec bm if he dont have expel or domain or something and got stun.
  • Myriad_ - Lost City
    Myriad_ - Lost City Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    Well.. because u asked xD

    I used to play Diablo 2 a number of years ago, and in that game there was actually an advantage to having a short name (The hp was shown over the name.. so if the name was really short it was difficult to tell how much hp someone had left), and I ended up picking some name like Deft or something dumb like that b/c I was really cocky and thought it was cool. Anyway, I made a "themed" account so all my character names were synonyms, which included Adept, Proficient, Adroit etc etc. So a few years later I had stopped playing video games all together and was learning how Torrents worked.. found a big file to download (PWI) to see how fast it went and whatnot.. And then I wanted to see how good free games are.. so made this character as a joke. Every random letter combination I was typing in kept being already taken, so I started going through old character names and this was the first one to actually work. Anyway, if I could start over I'd be a guy, and probably a different name.. I feel kinda conceited with this name. Anyway.. thats basically why I chose this name b:surrender

    Diablo 2 was cool but I was always bad at that game, couldn't end the second mode of difficulty b:surrender

    NOoo why would you be a guy, male wizzies are too ugly no offense lol, and your name is definitely cool, at least for me cause i am french b:mischievous
    Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Not really...
    Let's just say you start 25-ish meters away. They have a sprint buff and can reach you in approx 2 secs, shrink buys another 2 secs, force of will 4-5 secs, and they still have 6-ish secs to stun you.


    Going in the air will certainly help, although they might QQ about it.

    Yeah go in the air and let them QQ b:mischievous

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