Citrine or Garnet?

Seraph - Heavens Tear
Seraph - Heavens Tear Posts: 14 Arc User
edited May 2010 in Venomancer
I made my TTlvl 70 set for my Veno and all I need to is shard them.

My Veno a arcane build, I was going to shard the TT70 set with citrine since my HP low like 2k but I seen other arcane Veno my lvl or 10 lvls above having garnets.

So I'm confused since I thought having citrine gems to help the lack of hp we lack or I'm I missing something about Garnet?
Post edited by Seraph - Heavens Tear on

Comments

  • TrueHarmony - Archosaur
    TrueHarmony - Archosaur Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Well someone talked to me about this a while ago for cleric so maybe it applys to veno too.

    Citrine upps hp and garnet upps p def. Anything in mage armor has a problem with physical attacks rather than magic ones, so whats the point in having super high hp if a phyiscal attack hits you for a ridiculous amount of that hp. As far as i know some people use citrine AND garnets so they have decent hp and p defense, so its a better balance.... i think
    Yeah my sig doesn't match my name...i would say im being all clever and trying to confuse people...but im really just too lazy to make a new one
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  • LloydAsplund - Sanctuary
    LloydAsplund - Sanctuary Posts: 3,899 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Agree with the mixed garnets/citrines. I personally use 4x immac garnets in all visible clothing. And 4x immac citrines in non-visible clothing. All I wanted was that badass red fire with my flaming pataka.

    Ya'know, its best not to mix up the colours of the shard's glow. Why would you want ugly mixed orange/red sparkles on your armour. Gotta be one or the other.
    I was early taught to work as well as play,
    My life has been one long, happy holiday;
    Full of work and full of play-
    I dropped the worry on the way-
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    When people giving advice on this say nothing about refines, or builds it makes me wonder. b:chuckle
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • TrueHarmony - Archosaur
    TrueHarmony - Archosaur Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    When people giving advice on this say nothing about refines, or builds it makes me wonder. b:chuckle

    Not giving advice darling, just relaying information given to me by another player. Not reading closely ftw :D
    Yeah my sig doesn't match my name...i would say im being all clever and trying to confuse people...but im really just too lazy to make a new one
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Seraph - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I made my TTlvl 70 set for my Veno and all I need to is shard them.

    My Veno a arcane build, I was going to shard the TT70 set with citrine since my HP low like 2k but I seen other arcane Veno my lvl or 10 lvls above having garnets.
    Edit: read last line first

    At level 70, against level 70 opponents, completely ignoring mdef, and assuming flawless shards (40 hp vs 41 pdef), the break-points are:

    0-2500 hp <-> 0 pdef
    3000 hp <-> 127 pdef
    3500 hp <-> 615 pdef
    4000 hp <-> 1102 pdef

    In other words, from 0-2500 hp, you are always better off adding citrines.
    At 3000 hp, you are better off adding garnets until you reach 127 pdef. Then citrines are better.
    At 3500 hp, you are better off adding garnets until you reach 615 pdef. Then citrines are better.
    At 4000 hp, you are better off adding garnets until you reach 1102 pdef. Then citrines are better.

    Higher level opponents shift the balance further in favor of citrines.

    For mdef, citrines are always better.

    Basically, citrines are better unless you already have a ton of hp, or are tanking (in which case the cleric needs to heal your damage, and pdef helps reduce the amount of healing required).

    Edit: Hmm, just had a thought and confirmed it with pwcalc. +41 pdef from a shard doesn't actually give you 41 pdef. It gives you slightly more. So the above exact numbers are slightly wrong. I'll need to figure out what the conversion factor is before posting exact numbers in the future. But the discrepancy was only about 33% on the one character I tested it with. So the error is not that large, and the general conclusion above still holds. If you want to feel safe, add 33% to the above pdef numbers, although I can't guarantee that's accurate at level 70.
  • Feruta - Heavens Tear
    Feruta - Heavens Tear Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Edit: read last line first

    At level 70, against level 70 opponents, completely ignoring mdef, and assuming flawless shards (40 hp vs 41 pdef), the break-points are:

    0-2500 hp <-> 0 pdef
    3000 hp <-> 127 pdef
    3500 hp <-> 615 pdef
    4000 hp <-> 1102 pdef

    In other words, from 0-2500 hp, you are always better off adding citrines.
    At 3000 hp, you are better off adding garnets until you reach 127 pdef. Then citrines are better.
    At 3500 hp, you are better off adding garnets until you reach 615 pdef. Then citrines are better.
    At 4000 hp, you are better off adding garnets until you reach 1102 pdef. Then citrines are better.

    Higher level opponents shift the balance further in favor of citrines.

    For mdef, citrines are always better.

    Basically, citrines are better unless you already have a ton of hp, or are tanking (in which case the cleric needs to heal your damage, and pdef helps reduce the amount of healing required).

    Edit: Hmm, just had a thought and confirmed it with pwcalc. +41 pdef from a shard doesn't actually give you 41 pdef. It gives you slightly more. So the above exact numbers are slightly wrong. I'll need to figure out what the conversion factor is before posting exact numbers in the future. But the discrepancy was only about 33% on the one character I tested it with. So the error is not that large, and the general conclusion above still holds. If you want to feel safe, add 33% to the above pdef numbers, although I can't guarantee that's accurate at level 70.

    You forgot to mention that fox form would provide higher returns on garnets, that is if OP uses fox form. In addition, having higher pdef would mean lower healing costs when grinding alone, less potions/genie stamina used to heal when hit. Your calculations are based on length of survival alone going hit-for-hit pdef vs hp assuming everything else remains constant, but when you take healing into consideration (potions/genie skills) garnets always come out on top IMO.

    On a side note additional hp can be gained by refining your gear. However pdef is hard to come by when using robes. Necklace and belt are limited, even when refined.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The first boss fight in Nirvana, and one in FF that *can* hit you for 5k dmg regardless of defense. Both of these are avoidable. There's also Warsong Fire that I'm unsure of but also avoidable. Although avoidable, it's convenient to be able to continue fighting through it. I would recommend to aim for at least 5k hp by Lvl 100 and this can be done using alternative equips like a Sky Demon's Pearl Necklace.

    The choice should really be yours on your pdef to hp based on game play. Regardless of supposed survivability, there are other factors to consider. My rather low HP but high defense allows me to recover from hits faster and possibly cheaper using Leech, a pot, or second wind. Garnets were cheaper at the time of my imbuing (not sure of market now). In PvE there are pdef debuffs from bosses (mostly applies to tank anyway). If you use charms (not necessary), you get more bank for your buck with high defense / low hp. Lower operating costs can equate to more coin for better imbues, refines, equips.

    Fox Form multiplies on your pdef and for Sage fox: that's a 150% increase. Even as pure mag, I can do some decent dmg in Fox form using melee with some swap equips. Peach Blossom Ritualist (BH100 boss) has a pretty hard hitting phys aoe as well as an aoe mp drain. In fox form I can use Consume Spirit to recover some lost MP while having the extra defense from Fox.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Vivi - Heavens Tear
    Vivi - Heavens Tear Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    i would say for lvl70 go citrine get phy ornament

    but at higher level solandri im really interested in your calculation so keep the good work cause im too lazy

    its true it multiply for fox but on the other side you use metabolic boost that recover 50% hp in that case youll benefit more by having higher hp

    but i have to test myself to check equivalence between phy def and dmg reduction

    anyway in party its always easier for cleric if you have high hp in my opinion

    but i need to dig into that.
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Feruta - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You forgot to mention that fox form would provide higher returns on garnets, that is if OP uses fox form.
    Correct. But since it's a straight multiplication, you can just multiply the pdef values I gave (in addition to adding the ~33% I mentioned in my edit).
    In addition, having higher pdef would mean lower healing costs when grinding alone, less potions/genie stamina used to heal when hit. Your calculations are based on length of survival alone going hit-for-hit pdef vs hp assuming everything else remains constant, but when you take healing into consideration (potions/genie skills) garnets always come out on top IMO.
    That's the beauty of Tree of Protection. It heals based on % of hp, so is unaffected by that. Same goes for Metabolic Boost. Yes those figures do ignore healing cost, which is why I said pdef was better if you're tanking.

    For surviving the occasional hit until your pet can regain aggro, the numbers I gave hold. And if you use Tree or MB to heal up from the hit, it doesn't matter if you use citrines or garnets. But if you're being hit regularly and need to heal up more frequently than those two skills can cool down (e.g. tanking or standing in a physical AOE), then garnets become more important.
    On a side note additional hp can be gained by refining your gear. However pdef is hard to come by when using robes. Necklace and belt are limited, even when refined.
    Yeah, but he specified level 70 gear. It's probably a waste to refine it any higher than +2 or +3, which I think only gives you 40 or 60 hp?
  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    The first boss fight in Nirvana, and one in FF that *can* hit you for 5k dmg regardless of defense. Both of these are avoidable. There's also Warsong Fire that I'm unsure of but also avoidable. Although avoidable, it's convenient to be able to continue fighting through it. I would recommend to aim for at least 5k hp by Lvl 100 and this can be done using alternative equips like a Sky Demon's Pearl Necklace.

    The choice should really be yours on your pdef to hp based on game play. Regardless of supposed survivability, there are other factors to consider. My rather low HP but high defense allows me to recover from hits faster and possibly cheaper using Leech, a pot, or second wind. Garnets were cheaper at the time of my imbuing (not sure of market now). In PvE there are pdef debuffs from bosses (mostly applies to tank anyway). If you use charms (not necessary), you get more bank for your buck with high defense / low hp. Lower operating costs can equate to more coin for better imbues, refines, equips.

    Fox Form multiplies on your pdef and for Sage fox: that's a 150% increase. Even as pure mag, I can do some decent dmg in Fox form using melee with some swap equips. Peach Blossom Ritualist (BH100 boss) has a pretty hard hitting phys aoe as well as an aoe mp drain. In fox form I can use Consume Spirit to recover some lost MP while having the extra defense from Fox.

    I don't know about Nirvana, but I know that all Frostcovered city bosses which AoE (except one) deal damage based on a percentage of max HP.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Oops, meant to say first boss in FF, and one in Nirvana. I did mention "avoidable".
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Batman - Harshlands
    Batman - Harshlands Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    i dont think that 1st nirvana boss hit the same like 1st FC boss.in FC you get hit for 5k so i can survive but in nirvana i got 1 shot and i had like 8k hp

    about citrine vs garnets, all players here only counted pve and not even there that theory apply. i mean, soladri calculation is based on constant damage, no retaliation, no hp regeneration and finally... no charm. players are considered mobs in that theory.
    of course you have to use both garnet and citrine plus refines and have to count that there are 2 pdef buffs plus your fox form while there is only one magic resist buff and usually magic damage hit alot harder. then you have to estimate the number of physical/magic classes on your server.
  • FoxRunning - Heavens Tear
    FoxRunning - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited May 2010

    if you cant make your own gear, and are stuck with buying off the AH, you dont always have a choice. i cant afford to buy the shards, and i often wind up with mixed pickles armour. right now i have red glowing top(my choice), purple skirt (AH), and white glowing boots(my choice). add to that i have a yellow glowing glaive with white sparkling swirls around my hand, and a blue sword with a green glow.

    sounds like an amusement park after dark, with kids buying those glowing bracelets and things!^o^
    LloydAsplund - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Agree with the mixed garnets/citrines. I personally use 4x immac garnets in all visible clothing. And 4x immac citrines in non-visible clothing. All I wanted was that badass red fire with my flaming pataka.

    Ya'know, its best not to mix up the colours of the shard's glow. Why would you want ugly mixed orange/red sparkles on your armour. Gotta be one or the other.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Seraph - Heavens Tear
    Seraph - Heavens Tear Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Solandri is correct my TT70 armor are all now at +2 getting to +3 wasn't going to try testing how far the game will go to mess with me.

    Also he right I don't think going more than +2 or +3 is worth it from how I see the TT armor upgrade since you need to decompose the old set to make the new set right?

    Unless I'm missing you can carry the + and stats over. Oh to answer your question yes my build I do use fox form just for Amp and Purge so far since that all I can contribute to TT until I get a herc myself. >_>

    Thanks for the helpful adviceb:thanks
  • Vivi - Heavens Tear
    Vivi - Heavens Tear Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    ok i made some testing

    and i think i got the idea of citrine vs garnet b:victory

    i might be wrong so please correct me

    but basicaly:
    Citrine will give you survivability to big hit : like crit and thing that do dmg without taking into account def (5k in nirvana) or magic user since usually magic user do big hit
    Garnet will be better if you get hit many times by phy attack

    Time to expose some numbers:
    Just moving citrine to garnet shard no mix

    Build 1 HP 8k Pdef 3k
    Build 2 HP 7.3K Pdef 4K

    Physical attack deals dor exmple 158dmg on build 1 and 133 on build 2

    First hit
    B1 have 7842 hp left
    B2 have 7166 hp left

    the impression is B1 is better cause the number is higher

    Now let say mob hit many times : How many hit can you survive uncharm
    B1 8000/158=50.6
    B2 7300/133=54.8

    so 4 more hit using garnet

    Fox form youll survive 11 more hit and more as you get more buff
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ~Im Up for Nirvana~
    Thanks Santacruz for the Signature
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