Barrage of Arrows - Demon Upgrade Recommended?

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Neodaystar - Sanctuary
Neodaystar - Sanctuary Posts: 1,020 Arc User
edited May 2010 in Archer
So I'm in hell, and wondering if it's actually a good idea to use this skill book or not. I had received numerous negative feedback about archers with Demon BoA in Delta runs (mainly from non archer class). "I hate working with archers with demon barrage," qouting a barb friend lol.

As I've heard, the skill is guarantee to make you an aggro hog far worst than what DB does for a wiz, and risk getting sent to 1k stream as a result. In addition to that, the tank(s) will have to put more effort into getting the mobs off you and back into the focal point of all the AoE attacks during every wave. The damage increase from the demon version is only by about 2k more fixed damage per cycle (each traget), and much of the increased in dps comes from the reduced interval between attacks by 0.5 seconds. So it seems as though switching to a bow with lower attack value won't help much, or would it?

Without a doubt the dps is amazing. Based on my experience, for zhenning mobs in TTs/FCC the aggro is manageable and mobs will be killed before they reach you most of the time. However, for endgame instances, BH 100 etc...the skill is like a double edge sword. It seems to be a must get skill if you can for TW rather than PVE. What's your experience like with this skill for lvl 99+ archers with Demon BoA (for PVE and PVP)? Learn this skill and cope with the aggro in some way or sell this skill and get Blood Vow instead?
Post edited by Neodaystar - Sanctuary on

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  • Stayne - Harshlands
    Stayne - Harshlands Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So I'm in hell, and wondering if it's actually a good idea to use this skill book or not. I had received numerous negative feedback about archers with Demon BoA in Delta runs (mainly from non archer class). "I hate working with archers with demon barrage," qouting a barb friend lol.

    As I've heard, the skill is guarantee to make you an aggro hog far worst than what DB does for a wiz, and risk getting sent to 1k stream as a result. In addition to that, the tank(s) will have to put more effort into getting the mobs off you and back into the focal point of all the AoE attacks during every wave. The damage increase from the demon version is only by about 2k more fixed damage per cycle (each traget), and much of the increased in dps comes from the reduced interval between attacks by 0.5 seconds. So it seems as though switching to a bow with lower attack value won't help much, or would it?

    Without a doubt the dps is amazing. Based on my experience, for zhenning mobs in TTs/FCC the aggro is manageable and mobs will be killed before they reach you most of the time. However, for endgame instances, BH 100 etc...the skill is like a double edge sword. It seems to be a must get skill if you can for TW rather than PVE. What's your experience like with this skill for lvl 99+ archers with Demon BoA (for PVE and PVP)? Learn this skill and cope with the aggro in some way or sell this skill and get Blood Vow instead?

    This is why PVE servers confuse me..."More dps?" shouldn't really be a question.
  • Admante - Dreamweaver
    Admante - Dreamweaver Posts: 323 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    I did a delta with demon barrage archer once and it went as stated here. Archer got *all* the aggro and kept complaining about charm ticking.

    So personal preference really.
  • Neodaystar - Sanctuary
    Neodaystar - Sanctuary Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Stayne - Harshlands wrote: »
    This is why PVE servers confuse me..."More dps?" shouldn't really be a question.

    I'm in favor of the "more dps" for any skill any time. However, if it means causing more trouble for other squad members and also staking your life during an instance run, then it doesn't seem to be worth it. There seems to be more cons than pros with the skill.

    Questions that comes into mind as I was thinking about upgrading the skill:
    - With more dps can you kill the mobs you aggro'ed faster or slower? Yes that seems to be a stupid question, but consider this: barrage have a close range damage reduction, so if you aggro melee mobs the potential damage you can do to them is reduced.

    -How often do you aggro when using it, or should I ask what's the average number of repetition of attacks before that happens for demon barrage?

    -If I had to cancel barrage and waste 2 sparks to help the tank regain aggro, won't that lower the dps on the mobs collectively as a squad and make the run slower?

    I've never seen Demon BoA in action so I'm not sure of its potential. For example, in an FCC run the other day. We decided to do all the mobs at once in the last room with the Dragons. The squad had low level 90 DDs. When the mobs had about 10% hp left, my genie expel was in cool down along with my hp pots, so I had to force quit barrage and use defense skills with the remaining chi. After that it was death for me trying to run them around the BB. If I had demon barrage, would the extra damage kill them in time, or would I have aggro'ed them all too soon before their hp was even at 10%. Then that leaves my squad mates with the risk of squad wipe out.

    Demon BoA doesn't seem to be a rare skill at all, as I've seen another one in a catshop not too long before I got mines. I was wondering if the reason for many archers not having it is due to the thoughts I also have on it being a double edge sword.
  • Trobneziuq - Dreamweaver
    Trobneziuq - Dreamweaver Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    FFS... BRING IT TO DREAMWEAVER AND SELL IT TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Not a rare skill.. 6 dam months and i still havent seen it.. are you kidding?????

    I NEEDS IT SOO BAD!!!!!!


    WTB DEMON BOA!!!
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    take an OHT or NPC bow, switch bows when you have aggro. it won't interrupt BOA
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  • Neodaystar - Sanctuary
    Neodaystar - Sanctuary Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    take an OHT or NPC bow, switch bows when you have aggro. it won't interrupt BOA


    One problem is that if you steal aggro much more often than with a level 10 BoA and have to constantly switch to a lower weapon so the tank can have a chance to get aggro back, then it would mean that you are gimping damage more than often. With the increased firing rate of Demon BoA, it might not be that easy for the tank to steal back aggro once you have it even if you switch over to a lower bow (from what I've seen with higher weapon attack rates but with lower attack value like normal shots with winds and clouds and triple sparking with bare fists). If the tank is not a barb, then there's no chance of another AoE attack from any class that can grab aggro from you unless it's another archer with Demon BoA.

    Wizards have an easy time stealing aggro on certain mobs in RB because those mobs have lower magic defense so that's more of a damage issue. I've also talked to wizs back then during gamma runs and they claimed that even taking off the weapon won't help all that much after they have tons of aggro, and they are left with the only choice of stopping DB to save themselves. With Demon BoA, I think it's more of an attack speed issue considering that the additional damage going from lvl 10 to lvl 11 is not by much. If this is true, than switching to a different weapon won't help.

    I sure hope that someone who does have the skill can proof this wrong, because if it is not, then the demon version of this skill is not worth learning for PVE.
  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    If you do TW you kinda have to learn it, its like the only really useful skill archers have in TW and the demon version is pretty awesome.

    The amount of mp you waste is silly tho, get use to having mp-helm around or it might stop even if you have charm on.

    Archers never have agro issues in rebirth against wizards, even with lvl 11 barrage. Its not a problem unless you're in a party with a terrible wizard that has like lvl 5 zhen and +2 weapon.

    Normally a Wizard get most of the mobs on them. Even +12 archers with lvl 11 barrage looses agro to wizards with far lower refines <.<

    I couldn't hold agro against a wiz with +6 weapon and my weapon is +10 my barrage is lvl 11.

    Apparently his sage zhen was 11 so he kinda got 90% of the aggro and almost died half the time, i even spammed frenzy to lol, mobs wouldn't move an inch form the poor guy b:cry
  • Mercinary - Heavens Tear
    Mercinary - Heavens Tear Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Ok I'm really confused... I'm seeing "Demon BoA does too much damage should we change that do lower the DPS" and "Switching to a lower weapon lowers the DPS and thats bad"

    If the problem is you're taking agro then yes switch to a lower weapon but that hinders your damage so its a pick what you want... I personally carry 4 weapons for different situations.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    As long as you have a semi competent BM or Barb tanking delta waves is really not an issue. If you are really that worried just get expel or earthquake on the genie. Mobs die very fast under barrage which is nice. Honestly at 99+ delta is ridiculously easy and the only hard part is staying awake for 3 hours.

    In all other PVE cases you want barrage to do as much damage as possible. The point of barrage is to make a lot of things die really fast and demon barrage is the best skill in the game at this. I use it in normal grinding and OVS grinding as well.

    The MP consumption is a bit of a pain but manageable. You need mana 3 aura to keep demon barrage up charmless in delta. You also need some MP gear to get like 2.6K MP... not quite sure of the minimum MP requirement.. here's the pro gear I use in delta: http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6664/deltaring.png
    It's one my my most prized posessions b:chuckle

    Outside of delta, you can keep demon barrage up using only event MP food which is cheap enough to not care much about the high MP usage. This video was done with demon barrage and MP food: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0UfOHnFDOs
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    wat about your boots? b:chuckle

    and i thought your most prized possession is me b:cute

    to OP:

    If the tank doesn't take back aggro another AOEing DD should when you switch weapons. Just juggle the mobs amongst the DDs.
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  • Neodaystar - Sanctuary
    Neodaystar - Sanctuary Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »
    If you do TW you kinda have to learn it, its like the only really useful skill archers have in TW and the demon version is pretty awesome.

    The amount of mp you waste is silly tho, get use to having mp-helm around or it might stop even if you have charm on.

    Archers never have agro issues in rebirth against wizards, even with lvl 11 barrage. Its not a problem unless you're in a party with a terrible wizard that has like lvl 5 zhen and +2 weapon.

    Normally a Wizard get most of the mobs on them. Even +12 archers with lvl 11 barrage looses agro to wizards with far lower refines <.<

    I couldn't hold agro against a wiz with +6 weapon and my weapon is +10 my barrage is lvl 11.

    Apparently his sage zhen was 11 so he kinda got 90% of the aggro and almost died half the time, i even spammed frenzy to lol, mobs wouldn't move an inch form the poor guy b:cry


    Thanks for all the replies everyone. So I guess most of the negative feedbacks from other classes are not entirely true about that aggro issue. However, this: "I couldn't hold agro against a wiz with +6 weapon and my weapon is +10 my barrage is lvl 11. " is kinda sad, but that's mainly because some delta mobs has a much lower magic defense than physical. Still, it's very reassuring ^^
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    That wasn't TigerLilly's fault. Sage DB has a stun proc which seems to reset aggro on mobs before dealing damage. It makes it difficult to keep aggro of a wiz even if you are doing more damage. Lilly is also a sage if I remember so her Barrage is slower than demon.

    When I first got Demon Barrage I had a TT90+7 and easily held aggro over a wiz with TT99+8 / lvl 10 DB. Also Demon Barrage with Lunar+6 bow held aggro over Demon DB with Lunar+6 wand. Demon barrage does take aggro over a wiz but you still can share aggro fine with BMs, Barbs, and other archers. Mobs die much faster making stages 3 and 9 easier. For me getting Demon Barrage made Delta as a whole much easier. I once even solo DD'd delta when the wiz DC'd in stage 2.
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  • Bobzl - Sanctuary
    Bobzl - Sanctuary Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    demon barrage is a pvp (mostly tw) skill. not rly needed at all for pve lol.






    demon is about 20-25% more dps than lvl 10 BoA (and 17% more then sage i think), but if u switch weps to lower dps... im going to have to say it becomes kinda pointless b:surrender xD

    and yes, mp costs are ridiculous

    but ur choice...
  • Venorik - Sanctuary
    Venorik - Sanctuary Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    I probably should get demon barrage for TW, but I'm not actively looking for it until I've gotten all the full deltas I need done for culti, and I get armor that makes me less squishy. And bloodvow. So yeah, long way away. b:laugh
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  • Neodaystar - Sanctuary
    Neodaystar - Sanctuary Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Venorik - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I probably should get demon barrage for TW, but I'm not actively looking for it until I've gotten all the full deltas I need done for culti, and I get armor that makes me less squishy. And bloodvow. So yeah, long way away. b:laugh

    I had the same exact plan :P Think I'll sell the skill to help with getting blood vow or better equipments first to be less squishy to handle more aggro.

    TY all b:thanks

    Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »
    demon barrage is a pvp (mostly tw) skill. not rly needed at all for pve lol.
    demon is about 20-25% more dps than lvl 10 BoA (and 17% more then sage i think), but if u switch weps to lower dps... im going to have to say it becomes kinda pointless b:surrender xD

    and yes, mp costs are ridiculous

    but ur choice...


    Let see...cost 655 mp upon activation of the skill, and 655 mp every 3 sec, so you pretty much have to continuously click on an mp food after every cool down to avoid cancellation?
  • xperfectxzer0x
    xperfectxzer0x Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I had the same exact plan :P Think I'll sell the skill to help with getting blood vow or better equipments first to be less squishy to handle more aggro.

    TY all b:thanks





    Let see...cost 655 mp upon activation of the skill, and 655 mp every 3 sec, so you pretty much have to continuously click on an mp food after every cool down to avoid cancellation?

    mp food cost is actually fairly cheap, like 750 (12.5k x3 tokens needed/ 50 food recieved) if you get them from tokens in sancuary. I dunno why but sanc tokens are dropping in price after the packs are gone? Fail much merchants? well w/e abuse it.

    It recovers 5000 mp over 10 secs so it's 500 per sec which means it really depends on your mp pool on how long till you need to eat the next one. However one thing is for sure you definitely don't have to spam the stuff
  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    xperfectxzer0x wrote: »
    mp food cost is actually fairly cheap, like 750 (12.5k x3 tokens needed/ 50 food recieved) if you get them from tokens in sancuary. I dunno why but sanc tokens are dropping in price after the packs are gone? Fail much merchants? well w/e abuse it.

    It recovers 5000 mp over 10 secs so it's 500 per sec which means it really depends on your mp pool on how long till you need to eat the next one. However one thing is for sure you definitely don't have to spam the stuff

    TY was just about to ask if event food is sufficient for demon BOA b:chuckle


    I tanked a few deltas with archers that had demon BOA... um they were QQing about the mp cost a lot b:chuckle Agro didn't seem THAT bad... I didn't see those archers switching weaps but usually would start up barage a bit later & not at once when mobs enter zhen.
    + b:dirty everything died so fast eitherway
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  • Bobzl - Sanctuary
    Bobzl - Sanctuary Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »
    TY was just about to ask if event food is sufficient for demon BOA b:chuckle


    I tanked a few deltas with archers that had demon BOA... um they were QQing about the mp cost a lot b:chuckle Agro didn't seem THAT bad... I didn't see those archers switching weaps but usually would start up barage a bit later & not at once when mobs enter zhen.
    + b:dirty everything died so fast eitherway

    the old 3k mp event food from jolly jones isnt enough though xD (well it is, but there is almost no room for error on hitting it every 10 secs)

    and call me crazy, but hate not being able to afk in delta, so im often charmed, but unless i wear my handy-dandy mp hat, the BoA will cancel from lack of mp b:sad

    and tbh, even with the extra agro, ive never rly had trouble surviving :P
  • Ussichu - Sanctuary
    Ussichu - Sanctuary Posts: 429 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »
    the old 3k mp event food from jolly jones isnt enough though xD (well it is, but there is almost no room for error on hitting it every 10 secs)

    and call me crazy, but hate not being able to afk in delta, so im often charmed, but unless i wear my handy-dandy mp hat, the BoA will cancel from lack of mp b:sad

    and tbh, even with the extra agro, ive never rly had trouble surviving :P

    what you talking about bob, you're more dead than alive.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Bobzl - Sanctuary wrote: »
    the old 3k mp event food from jolly jones isnt enough though xD

    Demon barrage only takes 655*4=2620 MP in 10 seconds.

    Just eat a pot when you open barrage and you'll be fine. For Delta I try to get Mana 3 by stage 3 or 4. When you get that you can keep up barrage without potting.

    Really when all is said and done Demon Barrage is just a better barrage. If you like Barrage you'll love demon barrage.
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  • Bobzl - Sanctuary
    Bobzl - Sanctuary Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited May 2010
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Demon barrage only takes 655*4=2620 MP in 10 seconds.

    i just meant that u had to hit it pretty well exactly when the CD is over, and i have slow and lazy reflexes xD

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