Am I right?

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · May 2010

ok guys.
In PvP some1 doing 1000 damage on me. If I fill up 1 piece of armor with. Def. lv. 2 stones, I get 2*4(slots)=8% reduced damage. So player will do 1000-8%=920 damage.
So I saved 80 damage.
Now If I fill up it with 112 HP shards. I get 4*112=448HP more.
So according my calculation is much better fill up armor with HP shards, instead of def.lv stones. Am I right?
Now if I fill up armor with 20 lv.def 2 stones, 20*2%=40% I will get 40% less damage. In 1000 damage I would receive 600 damage. But If I fill up 20 slots with 112 HP shards I will get 2240 more HP which is a lot better than just 400 damage reduction.
Hypothetically if he would damage on me 10000 with 40% reduction I would receive just 6000 damage. So I save 4000damage. If I fill up armor with 112HP shard I would get just 2240HP which is much less than saved 4000 damage reduction.

Conclusion. If you gonna take a lot damage is much better fill up with def. lv2 stones. If you gonna take 1000-2000 damage is much better fill up with HP shards.
Now what is better?

PenutButer - Dreamweaver · May 2010

No, do i win

?

Adroit - Lost City · May 2010

Well first of all, there are not 112 hp gems, citrine gems give 115 hp. Anyway the choice between citrine gems or the def level gems depends on your hp. So for instance, if you had 10k hp to start with, someone hitting you for 1000 damage would take 10 hits (without shards/charm/etc) to kill you. If you added in a 40% reduction in damage, it would take 17 hits to kill you, while having the extra hp from citrine gems would mean you would die in 13 hits. On the other hand, if you had lets say... 3k hp. Without shards, 3 hits would kill you. With def stones, it would take 5 hits, and with hp shards it would take 6 hits. Now obviously there are other factors, such as hp buff and charm that complicate the calculation, but an easy answer is that if your gear is decent at end game, you should use defense stones.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · May 2010

pretty much what Adroit stated. it really depends on your stats, refines and ornaments.

btw +1 attack lvl shards are also a good deal. soon we'll be dealing with barbs stuffed with +2 def lvl shards. not a bad deal until devs decide to make warsoul packs.

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary · May 2010

Lots of talk about jades of steady def's since I made a post about it before heh.

Anyway, even if they made "warsoul packs" (I'm assuming you mean for warsoul weps), def stones will still be better. With cits, you'll still take 50% more damage, but if you have 50 def, itll be like getting hit w/ a nirvana glaive, which is a LOT better.

Yes, when you have mad refines, using +2 def lvl gems > cit gems. Think of it like this: Using +2 def lvl gems is somewhat synonymous to a 2% increase in hp. If you have 10k hp, with like 50 def, then it's similar to having 20k hp. 24 cit gems only gets you 2760 extra hp. If you have like 4k hp though, then the jades will help a lot less, so the more your hp from refines, the better the bonus.

I highlighted this section incase you wanted to just read the answer to the OP's question and skip the other text: Think of your hp in terms of percent rather than numerical values. Say you have 40 def as in your situation, and 10k hp. Let's say you get hit 5000 damage, so you take 3000 damage (2000 reduced). You have 70% hp left. Using cit gems, you have 0 def lvl, and 12760 hp (10k+24*115). Take 5000 damage, and you have only 60.8% hp left. Using percents, you'll always have more %hp left using def than using cit gems, even if you calculate with 1000 damage. There you have it. Def > hp.

Another bonus to def gems: Less pain on charms, and easier for a cleric to heal you.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lots of talk about jades of steady def's since I made a post about it before heh.

Anyway, even if they made "warsoul packs" (I'm assuming you mean for warsoul weps), def stones will still be better. With cits, you'll still take 50% more damage, but if you have 50 def, itll be like getting hit w/ a nirvana glaive, which is a LOT better.

Yes, when you have mad refines, using +2 def lvl gems > cit gems. Think of it like this: Using +2 def lvl gems is somewhat synonymous to a 2% increase in hp. If you have 10k hp, with like 50 def, then it's similar to having 20k hp. 24 cit gems only gets you 2760 extra hp. If you have like 4k hp though, then the jades will help a lot less, so the more your hp from refines, the better the bonus.

I highlighted this section incase you wanted to just read the answer to the OP's question and skip the other text: Think of your hp in terms of percent rather than numerical values. Say you have 40 def as in your situation, and 10k hp. Let's say you get hit 5000 damage, so you take 3000 damage (2000 reduced). You have 70% hp left. Using cit gems, you have 0 def lvl, and 12760 hp (10k+24*115). Take 5000 damage, and you have only 60.8% hp left. Using percents, you'll always have more %hp left using def than using cit gems, even if you calculate with 1000 damage. There you have it. Def > hp.

Another bonus to def gems: Less pain on charms, and easier for a cleric to heal you.

Interesting. Ty.b:pleased
I like another views on problems.

Quetzala - Dreamweaver · May 2010

How do the def. stones refine?

Mrvate - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary wrote: »

Another bonus to def gems: Less pain on charms, and easier for a cleric to heal you.

This. The main reason I shard with garnets as well (though they don't get the full effect of def gems). Having big hp pools take more effort to fill up, so higher defences make life alot easier and you get more out of pots/heals/genies. The only thing big hp pools don't bother is charms. but that might bother you when they tick then...

Kikuzakura - Sanctuary · May 2010

While +2 defense level gems are mostly better than +150 hp gems and +10 vitality gems, they do have a few "gotchas".

First, gems have increasing returns when you stack them, but attack level takes away defense level, so you can lose that stacking goodness when fighting people that have attack level boosts.

But also, I think defense level does not do anything about Damage over Time. So if you do not have a good base health level you might need to worry about DoTs.

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary · May 2010

Kikuzakura - Sanctuary wrote: »

While +2 defense level gems are mostly better than +150 hp gems and +10 vitality gems, they do have a few "gotchas".

First, gems have increasing returns when you stack them, but attack level takes away defense level, so you can lose that stacking goodness when fighting people that have attack level boosts.

But also, I think defense level does not do anything about Damage over Time. So if you do not have a good base health level you might need to worry about DoTs.

I'm not gunna comment on the DoT thing, cuz I don't know about it.

For the attack level concern, let's do some math, again with the same example as before, except now we have an attacking opponent with 24 attack (24 sockets with Diamond of Tigers).
I'm going to use a wiz w/ 10k base hp and 60 def (24 sockets*2 def each = 48, 48+2 = 50 (from the 2 event orns) 50+10 = 60 (5 nirvana pieces = 10 def).
Compare this wiz with 10k base hp + 2760 hp from 24 cit gems = 12760 hp.

Against opponent with 24 attack:
Opponent deals 5000 base damage, 5000 * 1.24 = 6200.
Wiz w/ cit gems = 12760 - 6200 = 6560 (51.4% hp left)
Wiz w/ 60 def = 10000 - (5000*0.64) = 6800 hp left (68% hp left)

Against opponent with 0 attack:
Opponent deals 5000 damage
Wiz w/ cit gems = 12760 - 5000 = 7760 hp left (60.8% left)
Wiz w/ 60 def = 10000 - (5000*0.4) = 8000 hp left (80% hp left)

You can see that def > hp in this case as well.

Note = The calculations I have performed are simplified for understanding. The game mechanics are analyzed in further detail in Asterelle's thread here http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=698392, although the difference between the simplified calculations and the actual formula do not vary enough to change the conclusions I have made.

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary · May 2010

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

You are comparing +2 defense level gems with level 11 citrines. If you used level 12 citrines, 24 gems would give you 3600 health. That works out to 63% health left against an opponent with 24 attack. Meanwhile, if you replaced those citrines with +2 vitality stones, you would get 48 defense levels and the other 12 defense levels you used in your calculations would also be available with the citrines. With those 12 defense levels the citrine wearer has about 68% of their health left after that 5000 damage attack. Or maybe not... I am tired and making math mistakes...

If you try this with a psychic attacking you, instead of a wizard, I think her point would actually be valid. And if people start using warsoul weapons (and some of the kitty better kitty shop merchants might be able to within a year) it gets even worse.

To the second paragraph, against diamonds of tigers, the relationship between vit stones and def stones will still be the same. Attack takes away def, but attack amps damage if you don't have any def.

To the first paragraph: I'll do some calculations and see what we get (I have no idea myself, so this'll be interesting)

Take a wiz with 10k base hp, version 1 = 3600 extra hp and 12 def , version 2 = 0 extra hp and 60 def.
Each takes 5000 base damage from someone with 0 attack.
Cit wiz = 13600 - (5000*0.8) = 9200 hp left (67.6% hp left)
Def wiz = 10000 - (5000*0.4) = 8000 hp left (80% hp left)

Each takes 5000 base damage from someone with 24 attack.
Cit wiz = 13600 - (5000*1.12) = 8000 hp left (58.8% hp left)
Def wiz = 10000 - (5000*0.64) = 6800 hp left (68% hp left)

As you see, def still prevails.

FoxyGurlly - Lost City · May 2010

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary wrote: »

To the second paragraph, against diamonds of tigers, the relationship between vit stones and def stones will still be the same. Attack takes away def, but attack amps damage if you don't have any def.

To the first paragraph: I'll do some calculations and see what we get (I have no idea myself, so this'll be interesting)

Take a wiz with 10k base hp, version 1 = 3600 extra hp and 12 def , version 2 = 0 extra hp and 60 def.
Each takes 5000 base damage from someone with 0 attack.
Cit wiz = 13600 - (5000*0.8) = 9200 hp left (67.6% hp left)
Def wiz = 10000 - (5000*0.4) = 8000 hp left (80% hp left)

Each takes 5000 base damage from someone with 24 attack.
Cit wiz = 13600 - (5000*1.12) = 8000 hp left (58.8% hp left)
Def wiz = 10000 - (5000*0.64) = 6800 hp left (68% hp left)

As you see, def still prevails.

Some flaws of this = having base 10k wihtout any cit gems and the fact that your considering +12 in favor of def gems in gear , while not considering the cit user would have that +12 also... -.-. Although i do believe def gems would also win out, when you stack alot and have really high refines, other classes with higher base hp see much higher survivebility with them. (ie lets take 6k hp and realistic 3socs and -60 veresus +hp and +12def level. too lazy to actualyl do calculation though.

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary · May 2010

FoxyGurlly - Lost City wrote: »

Some flaws of this = having base 10k wihtout any cit gems and the fact that your considering +12 in favor of def gems in gear , while not considering the cit user would have that +12 also... -.-. Although i do believe def gems would also win out, when you stack alot and have really high refines, other classes with higher base hp see much higher survivebility with them. (ie lets take 6k hp and realistic 3socs and -60 veresus +hp and +12def level. too lazy to actualyl do calculation though.

I said 10k base hp for both players, and then added the hp from cit gems to that, so both players have "+12" gear.
As you can see in the calculations, the def wiz always has 10k hp, and the cit wiz has 12760 (or 13600 in one of the posts).

If you want to take 3 socs each gear, thats 18 socs total, multiplied by 2, that's 36, then add def from event orns (you would have these if you can afford jades of steady defs) and you have 38. This is similar to the 40 def situation I used in my first post on this thread.

However, again, if you can afford those gems, you really should be going all out, so I figured that the situation I showed later on would be more useful.

You can also use 6k base hp for the situations and see how it pans out. I did it, but too lazy to type it in - you'll see you get the same results, that def > hp.

Am I right?

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